Why do I need to support the Horde rebuilding Tirisfal as an Alliance player?

[Accendor]

The wow moral system disagrees the good treasure pelagos ultimately decides and he decreed, no soul is irredeemable no matter what and that is that.Heck even prior to that you had people who were not directly sent to the maw, who had wiped out entire planets.

Ok, those are good arguments you make, even if I personally disagree with Pelagos, he IS the most important instance in the lore, so let me rephrase: "irredeemable in life".

[Aresk]

Also i am still waiting for Horde to help the Alliance like that.

For a Horde sovereign to send a single spy into Alliance lands to investigate reconstruction efforts, with said spy then acting at the behest of one of the Alliance members to then contribute toward said efforts, in exchange gaining favor that may lead to the reclamation of said sovereign's land? Maybe we'll see something with Darkshore along those lines, with Gazlowe dispatching some Horde spy and getting Tyrande to agree to cease any kaldorei attacks against Azshara.

[Combatbutler]

Ok, those are good arguments you make. Let me rephrase: "irredeemable in life".

Doesn't really work either, since death is the ultimate destination and determines what really matters, ones eternity and the souls are judged precisely on their deeds in life.

Whatever moral system the mortals come up with doesn't matter if Pelagos decides naw screw that. He is literally justice and moral incarnate, for better or worse.

[Shadowferal]

You'd need far more than four, heck in an actual world allies of today could be enemies a month down the road and allies in a few month again. It all depends on the circumstances and the writing, but doing something like this, is not easy, so won't happen

There are quite a few independent factions that could be fleshed out. And to survive the more aggressive factions they'd ban together in one big neutral faction.

[Aydinx2]

Wrong on the blight, right on the first part. Blight as we know it was developed in UC by the alchemists who used human (and dwarven) test subjects. It finished development near Wrath.

"In Warcraft III, the blight is a core mechanic of the undead race, working in a way similar to the zerg's creep in StarCraft. Players can build undead structures only on the blighted ground, with a few exceptions (the haunted gold mines and the necropolis)." - Wowpedia

"One of WarCraft III's main races, the Undead, can only summon buildings on blighted ground with the exception of the Necropolis and the Haunted Gold Mine. With each finished building, another layer of blight appears around it. Blight is an essential mechanic for the Undead because their creatures regenerate faster while on blighted soil." - WoWWiki

"Most Undead buildings must be summoned on blight. Only two buildings can be summoned on normal land: the Necropolis and a Haunted Gold Mine. Once completed, these buildings generate a radius of blight, upon which subsequent Undead buildings can be summoned. Each additional building you summon extends the radius of blight further." - Liquipedia

"Most Undead buildings must be summoned on the Blight, a corrupting influence that turns the land under an Undead settlement to rotted soil. Only two buildings can be summoned on normal land: the Necropolis and a Haunted Gold Mine. Once completed, these buildings generate a radius of Blight, upon which subsequent Undead buildings can be summoned. Each additional building you summon extends the radius of Blight further." - Blizzard

Did they create a more potent blight in WotLK? Sure. But it wasn't a new invention. Just stronger. They have been corrupting the land with Blight since the start.

[baskev]

I have no idea what is going on in the minds of Blizzards story writes, I really do not.
It was just one expansion ago that we fought to destroy UC, now we help the forsaken to restore Lordaeron despite nothing has changed in the meantime?

I will not even start with all the other problems the alliance story ONCE AGAIN has and that only seems to be getting worse every single patch, but the whole PREMISE of this questline is so dumb, I ONCE AGAIN can't believe somebody approved it to be released.

Thumbs up from me.

Agree with you. Its like with the allied races, druid forms from new trolls vs kul tirans. The story focus in several expansions so far.

Take arthas vs sylvannas. Arthas was bad. But it has been shown he was under the influence, being played by jailor from the start. Sylvannas joined him after jumping from icc. Still she gets a redemption arc. Arthas fades away.....
Hell even horde has more cities as us now......

But yeah...storywise it makes so much sense to help the horde clean up their own mess they made with dirty bombs in a city otherwise intact ( just poluted).
But Gilneas broken. Ashenvale broken. Darkshore death and decay and poisend. Teldrasil is a gaint as burned piece of drift wood.....

And what do we get....horde based armor set/look for horde based allied race kind of thing ( dark ranger)........

Reason why i have a harder time coming back to the game. I also play for my faction. but its lore and focus is being shit on. And stuff they make for us.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Did they create a more potent blight in WotLK? Sure. But it wasn't a new invention. Just stronger. They have been corrupting the land with Blight since the start.

It is literally a new invention that you help make as the player.

Lady Sylvanas has called upon the Royal Apothecary Society. The Dark Lady believes our knowledge coupled with the newfound magic will provide the key to Arthas's demise. She has challenged us to concoct a new plague, a plague deadlier than any ailment on Azeroth. This new disease will bring Arthas's Scourge Army to ruin.

My studies show that the blood of beasts might prove to be the key. Bring to me 5 vials of darkhound blood so I can test my theory.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/A_New_Plague

While you were collecting samples for me, my experiments led me to realize that more reagents will be required for this new disease to spread properly. Poisoning some hapless victim is child's play. Plaguing an entire world proves to be a bit more complicated.

I will need 5 Vile Fin Scales from Murlocs in the vicinity. You will find the creatures along the coast to the north or to the west.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/A_New_Plague_(2)

While you were out gathering, I uncovered some old text in one of my tomes that indicates that an ancient plague wiped out thousands of innocent victims. Later it was discovered that the deadly agent in the plague was preserved through the venom of Night Web Spiders.

Bring me some venom from a Vicious Night Web Spider to complete this experiment. I want to see if the contagious element from the venom will work with my new concoction. Rumor has it the spiders can be found in Eastern Tirisfal Glades.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/A_New_Plague_(3)

[baskev]

Calia has ties to both the alliance and the Horde. She is a Menethil. She is also "forsaken". This patch ties in cross faction partnerships. The cinematics literally mention the future of the forsaken being bright due to Calia's relationship with the alliance. Look around Lordaeron, there are little easter eggs. One such is a certain Proudmoore staged awkwardly in a corner with a story about how Jaina recommended him to serve Calia.

It's honestly not that hard to understand. Alliances are made and broken and truces are formed daily in the real world. What makes the warcraft world any different? Albeit lame story writing, it makes sense.

It does not. Alliance has been betrayed by the horde time and time again. And in your logic. After the damage the horde did to all night elf lands...maybe start to fix stuff there?

Lordearon needs some clean up from chemical warfare. and 1 town rebuild.

Night elves need 2 zones cleared of the same crap. And fix those zones. And a new capitol city/world tree/homeland.....

[Mehrunes]

"In Warcraft III, the blight is a core mechanic of the undead race, working in a way similar to the zerg's creep in StarCraft. Players can build undead structures only on the blighted ground, with a few exceptions (the haunted gold mines and the necropolis)." - Wowpedia

"One of WarCraft III's main races, the Undead, can only summon buildings on blighted ground with the exception of the Necropolis and the Haunted Gold Mine. With each finished building, another layer of blight appears around it. Blight is an essential mechanic for the Undead because their creatures regenerate faster while on blighted soil." - WoWWiki

"Most Undead buildings must be summoned on blight. Only two buildings can be summoned on normal land: the Necropolis and a Haunted Gold Mine. Once completed, these buildings generate a radius of blight, upon which subsequent Undead buildings can be summoned. Each additional building you summon extends the radius of blight further." - Liquipedia

"Most Undead buildings must be summoned on the Blight, a corrupting influence that turns the land under an Undead settlement to rotted soil. Only two buildings can be summoned on normal land: the Necropolis and a Haunted Gold Mine. Once completed, these buildings generate a radius of Blight, upon which subsequent Undead buildings can be summoned. Each additional building you summon extends the radius of Blight further." - Blizzard

Did they create a more potent blight in WotLK? Sure. But it wasn't a new invention. Just stronger. They have been corrupting the land with Blight since the start.

And as @Lorgar Aurelian already pointed out to you, the Forsaken Blight and the Scourge's Blight are two different things. The Forsaken Blight is the result of the Forsaken trying to create their version of the Plague of Undeath (with some major desikgn alterations like making it work against the undead), not the Blight of Scourge, which was just the effect the Plague of Undeath had on soil. You can see the Scourge Blight in the form of the Dead Scar in Quel'Thalas. Which, as should be apparent to everyone, is kinda nothing alike like the chemical weapon of the Forsaken.

[Unholyground]

I'll just be glad when they are finally done with the faction war stuff because clearly we work together more than we don't.

[cparle87]

Bwonsamedi kept troll souls save, despite being a lesser loa. But then again Elune is an overglorified toaster now.



That pretty much ended up in the garbage bin with shadowlands.

First ones are all the rage now, who most likely 3d printed her

Two people calling each other "sister" does not make it literal. Even among the Eternal Ones not all of them call each other siblings. Some of them call each other brother or sisters, others just good friends.

[Aydinx2]

The forsaken do nothing outside the line of horde rules until Wrath you can say being zombies is suspicious but as far as the horde goes they were on the up and up which is why the blood elfs join after the forsaken vouch for them.

The Blood Elves joined because the Alliance was suspicious of them, for good reason. Kael'Thas had gone rogue and they had issues with mana addiction, something the Night Elves did not like. Additionally, they needed Horde resources to recapture Quel'thalas.

Sylvanas vouched for them because she had her own interests (missing her people, and if they joined the Alliance they would be sandwiched between enemies).

The blight in WC3 and the forsaken blight are not the same thing.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blight_(plague)

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/New_Plague

That's the Plague. Not Blight. The text you quoted literally explains this.

No offense but you really do not know the lore.

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Two people calling each other "sister" does not make it literal. Even among the Eternal Ones not all of them call each other siblings. Some of them call each other brother or sisters, others just good friends.

The Eternal Ones are cosmic souls that have been placed in bodies created by the First Ones. Just because the First Ones created the bodies that does not mean they are family. The cosmic souls of The Winter Queen and Elune are literally sisters though, because they form a pair. That's why they both have an affinity for Nature when we don't really see a similar connection for the other 3 Eternal Ones. Even Bastion, which could have some relationship with Light, has 0 affiliation with Naaru or other Light entities.

We would need to see more of the different Pantheon's to judge how they are all connected, but Elune and The Winter Queen are literally sisters both in their creation (same parents) and their role/duty/task.

How the other Eternal Ones refer to each other could easily be because they don't have the same social relationship with eachother. Denathrius and Kyrestia aren't exactly super close.

[Combatbutler]

Two people calling each other "sister" does not make it literal. Even among the Eternal Ones not all of them call each other siblings. Some of them call each other brother or sisters, others just good friends.

Elune is part of the plane of life, the old lore has been changed to make room for the first ones and the planes they did create, each plane has its own 3d printer, elune is tied to the winter queen, so going by blizz logic, which is going the easiest lazy route, elune is now part of the cog instead of an independent real deity.

And if she is still indeed a real deity for whatever reason blizz decides, she would be an incredibly shitty one, not worthy of worshipp, considering how she "helps" her followers.

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There are quite a few independent factions that could be fleshed out. And to survive the more aggressive factions they'd ban together in one big neutral faction.

Many neutral factions would need to be kicked down and fused mostly into the human corner, since quite a few are tied to them anyway and be deprived of spotlight for a long time, because most of all fuck warcraft humans.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's the Plague. Not Blight. The text you quoted literally explains this.

No offense but you really do not know the lore.

Blight is also called the new Plague if you had checked the page you'd know that, don't project your own willful ignorance onto me.

[cparle87]

The Eternal Ones are cosmic souls that have been placed in bodies created by the First Ones. Just because the First Ones created the bodies that does not mean they are family. The cosmic souls of The Winter Queen and Elune are literally sisters though, because they form a pair. That's why they both have an affinity for Nature when we don't really see a similar connection for the other 3 Eternal Ones. Even Bastion, which could have some relationship with Light, has 0 affiliation with Naaru or other Light entities.

We would need to see more of the different Pantheon's to judge how they are all connected, but Elune and The Winter Queen are literally sisters both in their creation (same parents) and their role/duty/task.

How the other Eternal Ones refer to each other could easily be because they don't have the same social relationship with eachother. Denathrius and Kyrestia aren't exactly super close.

That's a lot of assumptions you're making. Where's prototype Elune in the raid if she was also made by the Eternal Ones like the Winter Queen was.

As I said, not all of them refer to each other as brother/sister, thanks for agreeing with me.

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Elune is part of the plane of life, the old lore has been changed to make room for the first ones and the planes they did create, each plane has its own 3d printer, elune is tied to the winter queen, so going by blizz logic, which is going the easiest lazy route, elune is now part of the cog instead of an independent real deity.

And if she is still indeed a real deity for whatever reason blizz decides, she would be an incredibly shitty one, not worthy of worshipp, considering how she "helps" her followers.

Same as Aydinx above, that's a whole lot of assumption you're making. Then again it's much easier to reduce the lore down to cliches and pass that off as reality than to consider anything besides the most obvious ones.

As for your last bit, allowing your followers to die so they can help with a bigger problem on another plane is totally the kind of thing I'd see a diety in a wide universe doing.

[Combatbutler]

Same as Aydinx above, that's a whole lot of assumption you're making. Then again it's much easier to reduce the lore down to cliches and pass that off as reality than to consider anything besides the most obvious ones.

True but considering blizz track record a very likely one. Blizz and complex storytelling doesn't mix.

[TbouncerT]

Just to point this out: If it's not in the game, it didn't happen. I like reading, I like Books, I even liked the old warcraft books, but the story needs to be told ingame, not in 3 Youtube Videos, 2 Short stories and some random books.

Another HUGE problem is that either the books retcon the game (like the Sylvanas novel in some cases) or the game later retcons the books, so you never know what actually happened, what is canon and what is not.

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To be fair, for a Paladin I could see the justification as "cleansing the land" is something they very likely would do, even if it is together with the Forsaken.
I mean it's unlikely, but I can see arguments here for both sides why a paladin would feel conflicted about this and then decides to help either way.
Same goes for Druids and Shamans, if you only look at the individual and not the organization behind it.

I still thought it was weird of a human pally disguised as an undead going around doing pally things, little sus' there. either way, this has been said for over a decade at this point, there is clearly a horde bias for WoW. once you accept that, it gets a 'little better' and make more sense for their game decisions.

[cparle87]

True but considering blizz track record a very likely one. Blizz and complex storytelling doesn't mix.

Thank you for proving my point so well for me.

[Kithelle]

That is your opinon. That the story should be entirely within the game. I disagree with it.

The fact that you feel the need to brag about how long you've been quit from a game whose forums you still frequent makes your "I do not hate them" argument feel very shallow. If you want to ignore the story that is presented then complain that you don't understand it because you ignored parts of it you couldn't be bothered to read that's on you.

I don't hate WoW and I agree, shouldn't have to buy books to fill in the story that is missed. Stuff like this is becoming a hallmark of bad story telling, this is yet another franchise I used to enjoy a lot more that has gone to hell because of low talent writers can't perform well...and ALL of them didn't need the books, they just used their time poorly

[cparle87]

I don't hate WoW and I agree, shouldn't have to buy books to fill in the story that is missed. Stuff like this is becoming a hallmark of bad story telling, this is yet another franchise I used to enjoy a lot more that has gone to hell because of low talent writers can't perform well...and ALL of them didn't need the books, they just used their time poorly

Yet again, you don't need to buy the books. Their summaries are, for free, on wowpedia. Some of the books, like the Cata era leader fleshing out stories, are literally on the WoW website.

You're saying you used to enjoy the story more in the past? You mean when each zone was its own self contained storyline with nothing tying it to anything else, with only a handful of storylines at max level crossing zone boundaries telling super basic things like the Onyxia attunement? Seems to me you enjoyed simple storylines where you could project whatever you wanted onto them.

As for the "used their time poorly" thing I have absolutely no idea what you mean.

Though looking at your user "location" I'm getting the feeling you're one of those Calvin and Hobbes meme guys.