Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[xenogear3]

does that include china?

China has very restrict rules.
You must register with real life ID to play, and the game must have a stamina system so kids don't play 24/7.

Even it sells well in China.
Blizzard has to be prepare bribing the government officers, because it steps on lots of people's toes, including Tencent.

[Ouskambou]

The game has a lot of details and features so they have to slowly unlock them for you as you progress. Otherwise new players would be overwhelmed by all the information.


It's just the game letting you know that an option is available.


-It's not a predatory business model. There's nothing unethical about it.
-Nobody is forced to play and nobody is entitled to their preferred game experience unless they created the game.
-You can experience most of the game for free.
-As far as I know F2P players can still achieve almost all of the same things but at a slower rate.

Were you dressing or already dressed as a clown when typing this? xD

[NED funded]

Level 46 as a necromancer. NGL this is seriously much more entertaining than I thought. I wish I had more hours after work to play this

[pinkz]

the game is a success you will see it in following ATVI earnings. for those who weren't around when ATVI bought King to get Candy Crush, ATVI was scorned with claims they overpaid etc. yet you read earnings reports back to 2016 and that one game was out doing WOW. when blizzard added hearthstone it was a success. many of the earnings COD, CC, and HS were popping in earnings reports with WOW getting mentions of MAUs, if patches or expacs were incoming, and money made from services

[everydaygamer]

Problem is people don't understand the mobile market works completely different from normal games. What Blizzard did is basically expected in the mobile market and those gamers generally don't care because they view it as a nescessary price for free games.

[PC2]

Were you dressing or already dressed as a clown when typing this? xD

Nope. I'm not sure if the Diablo Immortal business model is optimal but I want to see how it plays out. Focusing on digital content and not the one-time selling price of a game could be a good way to keep a good game alive indefinitely, which would be awesome.

[pahbi]

This kind of nickel and dime P2W model is crap, 100% sleezy abusive crap.

That said, I don't blame Blizz or any other company for doing it, not one tiny bit.

You know why?

Because the true blame lies in folks who are willing to shell out $$$ for this kind of stuff, the folks who refuse to vote with their wallets are 100% to blame for P2W nonsense.

Why do companies put out this kind of crap? The answer is obvious: Because it works and it makes a LOT of $$$

Hell, I'd put out a P2W myself if I had any game developing skill.

[chiddie]

I'll wait till you realize that content creators are just using the hate wave - a predatory technique - to use the fad controversy to bait people into watching how they hate it as much if not more than them.

Especially those who drop thousands of dollars on it. They expect to recoup at 800% value.

Someone linked me a video of a dude called Bellular. It’s really a comic masterpiece, he analyzes EVERY single package available in the shop like it’s the first mtx game he ever saw.

[Dhrizzle]

Right, and I totally agree that Immortal is a great game to do that with.

I just also don't think it should be supported and looked at as a success because of the monetization. If you watch a lot of the content creators discuss their feelings on the game, it's that the game should be avoided like the plague due to how predatory it is, but that the actual gameplay itself isn't bad.

I think that's the main message that we should try to get across no matter if we're casual players or somebody who wanted to go hardcore and feels they cannot due to the paywall. I want Blizzard and other companies to understand that we accept that there can be mobile games with fun gameplay for people who enjoy playing games like Diablo, but that we won't stand for such egregious monetization and pay to win schemes at the same time. I appreciate the fact that they made a mobile Diablo game with good gameplay, but I don't appreciate the fact that you essentially cannot play it like a true Diablo game at the max level due to the way its monetized.

Streamers love to get people on the hate train, it gets them clicks which is how they get paid. Look at the guy dropping $4k on MTX because he knows the headline will earn it back.

And having played for a good few hours now I can only say it doesn't feel that predatory. Sure there's a shop and it sells some nice things but the only time I'm tempted to go there is when I have free stuff to collect. I appreciate things like the bundles being priced in money, so if I do want to buy one then I only need to spend 89p, not £3 or whatever on tokens that I then have left over. I do like the enhanced battle pass mode or whatever it is that gives extra loot on the monthly progression. If I get far up that it means I've played a lot so spending less than a fiver on extra stuff doesn't feel like a big deal.

Not a big fan of the bonus daily lootnthing, though I guess if I was really into the endgame the £9 for 30 days might be worth it.

[MoanaLisa]

Not really sure what you mean.

Toxicity breeds engagement and views. The more outrage the better. It’s the same principle that makes this thread a low information zone. People are ramping up the outrage to get attention. It’s a known thing and works for nearly everything on every kind of social media you can imagine.

[Dhrizzle]

Ok then skip the Belgium law and look at the rest of the post.

Blizzard has removed MTX before (referencing Overwatch and HoTS) and generally speaking, the biggest negative factor (so far) has been the MTX of Immortal. Remove the MTX (even if it became a $20 game or a $5~$10 subscription game from the other thread) and how much more enjoyable would Immortal be?

As Beau Schwartz commented (paraphrasing from memory), DI is a 10/10 game that has a 0/10 MTX layer on top of it which makes the overall experience a 0/10 game.

Odds of me paying £20 up front or subscribing to try the game are very low. I might go for one of the subscription-style services if I play a lot and might even buy a couple of bundles if I'm enjoying myself a lot, but odds on I won't pay that much in total before I move on to other things. It's a fun casual experience, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the story and playing around with the other classes, but it's not the sort of thing I'd spend a lot of cash on simply because playing on mobile for extended periods isn't as enjoyable as on a PC, even with a high quality, polished game like this one.

Speaking of "polished," does anyone else remember Tencent announcing the game was pretty much good to go and Blizz saying it needed some finishing touches before they were happy? That was 3 years ago.

[MoanaLisa]

The problem seems like there isn't much of a game once you reach that point. You can't even pay to win because there is nothing to win. You have your checklist of things to do each day, 5 of this, 2 of that. But you cannot actually grind anything to become more powerful. You are at the mercy of timers and payment windows the entire time. Hidden caps, as in loot just stops dropping with no explanation as for why.

What's wrong with arguing there should be things people can do if they want to spend that much time on the game? Or that limitations should be clearly marked, so people aren't expected to keep track of every activity they do to play efficiently.

Even the pro-P2W crowd seems to agree the monetization is lazy, there is no bridge from minnows to dolphins to whales. It's all in on the gems from the beginning and its ridiculous how much it costs for what you get in return. Like the laughable "800% value" package you can't buy anything with. Straight to needing thousands to upgrade gear. The same limits and hidden caps that stop a F2P from competing with them, block them from enjoying the power they paid for.

Even if you don't care about it being predatory, it's not setup in a way that efficiently converts f2p players. Conveniences they want to pay for aren't sold, and things like limited temporary storage space and access to the market remotely aren't valuable to them. They want to buy EVEN MORE space, have remote access to salvage, deckard, the blacksmith. Stuff anti-P2W players wouldn't care about and would make the game more money.

If the game falls off for anyone who wants to put time or money into it, how long is it really going to last?

These are arguments IN FAVOR OF THE GAME. Not trying to say you shouldn't enjoy the game because of these reasons. But its a large part of why a lot of players and Diablo content creators have been pretty negative on monetization of the game despite liking the game itself. Why is it so wrong to ask them to rethink this model? For everyone's benefit. Right now its like they have the worst part of blizzards F2P compromises mixed with the worst of NetEases P2W systems.

That’s a good post. I also noticed that there were few gradations from cheap to expensive That is a real problem. The best MTX mobile games will start you off at $.49 or $.99 and give you a dozen or so different escalations in price all the way to the top end not to mention a ton of “useful right now” things for cheap. I also totally agree that the wrong stuff is in the store. That is on Blizzard US since they made several posts about how they were trying to get the MTX right. Blizzard always considered itself an elite game maker so could charge more but I believe those days are long over. Since the failure of Titan Blizzard has not been the same company in any way like they were before if you think about the last few years.

Looking forward, I imagine they will make adjustments sooner rather than later. They can run daily and weekly or weekend sales like nearly everyone else does. They can expand the store with more stuff at more price points and they can limit their store exposure to a splash screen at the start and an icon in the corner of the interface. They can also release new zones and the like along with pay-for classes and skins. They’re not dumb and they will eventually figure it out only because there are so many other revenue models they can borrow from. After all, that’s what they do.

That won’t convince anyone that thinks the game should either be 100% free or $39.99. The latter will never work for mobile and the former won’t make them any money.

[RobertoCarlos]

That’s a good post. I also noticed that there were few gradations from cheap to expensive That is a real problem. The best MTX mobile games will start you off at $.49 or $.99 and give you a dozen or so different escalations in price all the way to the top end not to mention a ton of “useful right now” things for cheap. I also totally agree that the wrong stuff is in the store. That is on Blizzard US since they made several posts about how they were trying to get the MTX right. Blizzard always considered itself an elite game maker so could charge more but I believe those days are long over. Since the failure of Titan Blizzard has not been the same company in any way like they were before if you think about the last few years.

Looking forward, I imagine they will make adjustments sooner rather than later. They can run daily and weekly or weekend sales like nearly everyone else does. They can expand the store with more stuff at more price points and they can limit their store exposure to a splash screen at the start and an icon in the corner of the interface. They can also release new zones and the like along with pay-for classes and skins. They’re not dumb and they will eventually figure it out only because there are so many other revenue models they can borrow from. After all, that’s what they do.

That won’t convince anyone that thinks the game should either be free or $39.99. The latter will never work for mobile and the former won’t make them any money.

Hard to consider yourself an elite game maker when you are not even making the game.

[Talon8669]

One of the things I found quite funny when trying it was when I cleared a dungeon for the first time my REWARD is a discount bundle in the shop. My reward for clearing a dungeon is the opportunity to spend money. Oh but at a discount, ya know cus they want you to be used to spending money early. Even if it's just a little. Get that taste.

From what I briefly saw of the game and the videos I have seen of others playing Blizzard has doubled down on every predatory, disgusting behaviour that P2W games have. The mental tricks of luring people in with rewards, dailies, small free tastes of what it'd be play to spend money, cheap 1-time only bundles to get you into spending just a little to get the ball rolling, every penny spent is some form of gambling mechanic to get those gambling addicts hooked etc. etc... Every mechanic in the game, every prompt, every action is designed with trying to get the player to spend money ahead of anything else.

Diablo Immortal is everything bad about current-gen games, games whos mechanics are more focused on mental warefare with the player to make as much money as possible and it saddens me than the company and game at the forefront of all these disgusting behavours is both the company and game series that I once loved.

I understand companies exist to make money, but that doesn't excuse disgusting behaviour and these predatory mechanics are exactly that. I just want game companies to be about making good games again. People should spend money on your game because your game is good and they want to support it, not because they was coaxed into spending it.

What I love is when they announced this at Blizzcon and said what don't you guys have phones. People were pissed off for (2) reasons, (1) they want the game on PC which it can be played on but they wanted a PC only game really and not something made mobile and then optimized to be played on PC. The second thing they were pissed about was the potential for the cash grab. And look what we ended up with, a game that asks what $100k to $110K to have BIS gems. And we'll see if that is forever or just that "season". I don't play mobile games but this is disgusting and honestly Blizzard at this point is trash imo. They might be able to do something still with the next wow expansion but I think they are done. They certainly aren't like 90's game developer we all fell in love with.

[thilicen]

If you had 5* gems readily available - everyone would have them pretty fast and get bored. The game is about getting them the hard way. And if you want them the fast way - pay. Fair enough.

I'm sorry, if someone can spend around 10000 dollars without getting a single 5 star gem, what in the holy fuck is the "hard way"?

- - - Updated - - -

What I love is when they announced this at Blizzcon and said what don't you guys have phones. People were pissed off for (2) reasons, (1) they want the game on PC which it can be played on but they wanted a PC only game really and not something made mobile and then optimized to be played on PC. The second thing they were pissed about was the potential for the cash grab. And look what we ended up with, a game that asks what $100k to $110K to have BIS gems. And we'll see if that is forever or just that "season". I don't play mobile games but this is disgusting and honestly Blizzard at this point is trash imo. They might be able to do something still with the next wow expansion but I think they are done. They certainly aren't like 90's game developer we all fell in love with.

That Blizzard died when Activision came into play. This is just the grave being dug even deeper.

[Cyi]

That’s a good post. I also noticed that there were few gradations from cheap to expensive That is a real problem. The best MTX mobile games will start you off at $.49 or $.99 and give you a dozen or so different escalations in price all the way to the top end not to mention a ton of “useful right now” things for cheap. I also totally agree that the wrong stuff is in the store. That is on Blizzard US since they made several posts about how they were trying to get the MTX right. Blizzard always considered itself an elite game maker so could charge more but I believe those days are long over. Since the failure of Titan Blizzard has not been the same company in any way like they were before if you think about the last few years.

Looking forward, I imagine they will make adjustments sooner rather than later. They can run daily and weekly or weekend sales like nearly everyone else does. They can expand the store with more stuff at more price points and they can limit their store exposure to a splash screen at the start and an icon in the corner of the interface. They can also release new zones and the like along with pay-for classes and skins. They’re not dumb and they will eventually figure it out only because there are so many other revenue models they can borrow from. After all, that’s what they do.

That won’t convince anyone that thinks the game should either be 100% free or $39.99. The latter will never work for mobile and the former won’t make them any money.

Serious question coming from a point of ignorance. Why wouldn’t a $39.99 price for a mobile game work? I feel like there are lots of games that are pay once. Again serious question. Thanks.

[MrFawlty]

Should check out Grim Dawn, Diablo 3 (At least fun until you get to end-game aka paragon grinding simulator) or even Torchlight 2 then. Actual good ARPG's.

Two of those games dont have Blizzard logos so he wont touch them.

[thilicen]

Serious question coming from a point of ignorance. Why wouldn’t a $39.99 price for a mobile game work? I feel like there are lots of games that are pay once. Again serious question. Thanks.

It would, it just won't bring in whale money. You see, selling a game at a premium will earn you a lot of money, but ActiBlizz wants all of the money. Literally all of it. EA is shrinking to the size of a pissant in the horizon compared to these assholes.

[Jerot]

I'm sorry, if someone can spend around 10000 dollars without getting a single 5 star gem, what in the holy fuck is the "hard way"?

Roll the dice, log in every day and you get 1 legendary crest a week plus one more from hilts a month, 5 rolls a month. 4.5% to hit ?/5 and 1% of those will be 5/5.

Just play the game every day for 37 years straight and don't roll less than average.
(Don't expect a genuine answer from them)

[uuuhname]

But they are allowed to buy Pokemon card packs, blind bags, etc that all exhibit gambling and things to milk money. Stop trying to prop up your argument by talking about children when even countries that ban loot boxes don't actually stop those ethical or moral quandaries towards children. Those countries don't stop games from doing those things when no money is involved. So they are perfectly fine with the kids being hooked on the concepts.

your comparison to trading card games cards is bad, sorry.

for starters there is a mountain of difference between making the conscious choice of going to a card shop, picking out a couple packs, spending a whopping $15 on cards. is in no way the same as this button that continues to pop up on your screen telling you to push it and when you do it charges your card for $75. and going back to the cards you realize there is an actual market for trading cards, right? I hope you understand that trading cards, unlike video game assists have actual tangible real world value attached to them. so at the very least you can get your money back and then some if your lucky. as opposed to a lottery where you throw money into it and nothing comes out, because its stuck in a video game..

Also the legal age to drink alcohol varies around the world. The age of majority also varies around the world. It also ignores that video games are not just for kids. So you really are moving the goal posts to entirely different arguments that don't exist the way you think they do.

are you fucking serious? I've been using these same examples for pages and pages now.