Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Elim Garak]

When you're saying "Boy, I sure hope they pull enough cosmetic pieces off that car so I can buy them back separately" you are.

Except I never said that.

Oh yes, because we all know Activision Blizzard is a struggling developer who is going to go broke if you don't buy the cosmetics that used to be part of what came in the box but are now sold separately.

Wait... do you want them to go back to be a struggling developer? Like only a broke developer can earn money?

[Jerot]

Your wait is over!

Well for the merch store. Diablo Immortal stuff is still in production.

+1 Acti-Blizz Social Credit

Oh yes, because we all know Activision Blizzard is a struggling developer who is going to go broke if you don't buy the cosmetics that used to be part of what came in the box but are now sold separately.

I feel like cosmetics are the least of the games problems, when basic reward structures are butchered to push people to buy crests, platinum, and battle passes for basic crafting materials and gear upgrades.

[Ghost of Cow]

I really wanna live in this fantasy world y'all are dreaming where a company goes "you know what I have enough money I think I'll stop"

Blizz was totally that company! Right around the same time they were close, personal friends with posters here and they were just the best people who hated money and loved the sound of a baby's laughter.

[xenogear3]

I highly doubt it can be worse than WoW but I will see with my eyes when I’ll be there too.

In gacha game, the most important part is to gain premium currency (legendary crest, orb, platinum).
None of the daily and weekly does that.

After level 60, it opens a few quests. No main story.
It gives a few upgrades, but none of them gives the premium currency.
At least, it should drop marketable items to gain platinum. None!

[Elim Garak]

By the declaration of human rights... are you going full batshit crazy now that you have to ask this?

Do you know what a human right is? It's not ALLOWED. It's inherent and unalienable. I.e. cannot be denied.
I have my rights by default. No one gave them to me.

Context? Which games are you talking about. That's not the case in most mobile games, like... at all.
You can literally pay to play more in lots of them. Lots of games (most mobile games actually) prevent you from doing *anything* in them if you don't have enough "stamina" (a currency) and that "stamina" regenerates at a certain intervall and if you wait enough invervalls you can play again... paying customers can skip that.

Lol. The stamina (it is called energy, not currency) system is used to make you return to the game - it's a retention mechanic. It is also monetized for those who have more time to play.

But the most money from it comes from TIME LIMITED EVENTS. Where you kinda have to buy more energy to compete in the leaderboard or to get more points to get bigger prizes.

But you don't need to play events. And most events let you get prizes without paying - participation prizes.

Data? Where? You don't know what you are talking about, so why do you think you know who plays mobile games?

Hello? Mark Zuckerberg sends his regards. All developers have the BIG DATA (that they get from FB and Google) and know the portrait of the average gamer. What cars they prefer, what food they like, how much money they can spend in a month and more importantly how much time they play on a toilet. They don't know their names, it's all anonymous data, so don't worry - your privacy is secure.

Exactly, but I have way more experience with these games than you. You have no clue what you are talking about and are most likely wrong because of that.

Sure buddy.

[Lolites]

What's the point when the game is fun to play but it's an ARPG that is about character power progression

to you, its about character progress to you...different people play for different reasons...for some people the FUN is what the game is about and they couldt give a damn about progress...
not to mention, you cant get "bis" without paying but you definitely can progress your character...

but both are beside the point, why shouldnt people play the game they enjoy, just bcs you said so? you are "stop having fun" meme in person ffs...
you are free to decide for yourself to not play it bcs of the reasons you mentioned, and other people are free to play it if they choose so... for people who enjoy it for free there is no goddamn reason to boycot it other than you saying so, which honestly is no reason at all...

[Orby]

@Elim Garak , I am starting to wonder if you even play Diablo Immortal, you have spent nearly a week on this thread non stop. Go and play the damn game, stop antagonising and trolling people because you can personally excuse predatory mechanics. We get it, you don't mind or care about MTX. But people care, because the very ethics and health concerns around the MTX are real.

[KrayZ33]

Do you know what a human right is? It's not ALLOWED. It's inherent and unalienable. I.e. cannot be denied.
I have my rights by default. No one gave them to me.

Can you stop trolling? Wtf are you ranting about.
You are also wrong, because these rights can be taken away.

Ever heard of prisons?

"Human rights are inalienable. They should not be taken away, except in specific situations and according to due process. For example, the right to liberty may be restricted if a person is found guilty of a crime by a court of law."

Lol. The stamina (it is called energy, not currency) system is used to make you return to the game - it's a retention mechanic. It is also monetized for those who have more time to play.

But the most money from it comes from TIME LIMITED EVENTS. Where you kinda have to buy more energy to compete in the leaderboard or to get more points to get bigger prizes.

But you don't need to play events. And most events let you get prizes without paying - participation prizes.

And how is that connected to what I said about how long people play? If whales spent money on the energy system (and they do, just ask one). To use that energy, you need to play the game.
F2P players can't pay to get additional energy (because they wouldn't be F2P otherwise)
So?

And energy *is* a currency, you spend it on activities and in most cases, you have to choose which activity to play with it because there is not enough energy available for F2P to do all of them.

So what's your point? Can you add anything useful? I guess you can't.

Hello? Mark Zuckerberg sends his regards. All developers have the BIG DATA (that they get from FB and Google) and know the portrait of the average gamer. What cars they prefer, what food they like, how much money they can spend in a month and more importantly how much time they play on a toilet. They don't know their names, it's all anonymous data, so don't worry - your privacy is secure.

Wtf are you talking about? Stop derailing and trolling.
Where is your data that says whales don't play longer than F2P?
If you can't answer, don't bother replying, the thread will do just fine without your stupidity and trolling.
Nothing you just said had anything to do with what I said or I asked you to provide.

Sure buddy.

my words in your mouth buddy.

[Mic_128]

I really wanna live in this fantasy world y'all are dreaming where a company goes "you know what I have enough money I think I'll stop"

It's more the fantasy land that when companies did anti-consumer bullshit, they wouldn't be cheered on for it. v.v

Remember when Capcom pulled that 'on disc DLC' shit for Resident Evil and SF X Tekken, and how they got torn a new one and haven't tried it again? Those were the days...

Except I never said that.

Then can you clarify what you meant when you said "Well, I hope whoever gets that position adds some more stuff to buy in D4 store"?

Wait... do you want them to go back to be a struggling developer? Like only a broke developer can earn money?

No, but a billion-dollar company doesn't need to leave chunks of its product out to sell separately. You can be a success without having contempt for your customers.

[Elim Garak]

Then can you clarify what you meant when you said "Well, I hope whoever gets that position adds some more stuff to buy in D4 store"?

I meant "Well, I hope whoever gets that position adds some more stuff to buy in D4 store"

No, but a billion-dollar company doesn't need to leave chunks of its product out to sell separately. You can be a success without having contempt for your customers.

A billion-dollar company must only be allowed to do what it needs as defined by you?

[Dhrizzle]

Hit Level 60 yesterday. Login today.
Played 3 Battleground. My team clearly has disadvantage.
Don't feel like to do the daily, the shadow contract/assembly. Logout. May never touch it again.
I was hoping to spend the $300 in my battle.net balance. Guess not on this game.

Anyone who thinks Diablo Immortal is a good game is clearly not a true gamer.
This game gives so little reward per hour's playtime.

Even for a whale, he is forced to grind for a few things.
When he sees how little the reward is, he may give up.

If you're going to gatekeep being a "true-gamer" you could at least pretend to care about how enjoyable playing the game is and not just how well it drip feeds serotonin with a false sense of accomplishment.

[Alroxas]

If you spend too much money on a video game, you ARE the problem.

You guys keep acting like you're baffled that people won't blame a company for selling a product while you absolve people of all responsibility for buying too much of it.

Well I'd be careful there because by that argument, Big Tobacco shouldn't be liable for all the millions of people affected hooked on their product.

Most games (but mobile games in particular) are very much designed to generate that dopamine hit as much as possible to keep players engaged. In fact, Max Schaefer and Erich Schaefer (original founders & designers of Diablo) commented that specifically unidentified loot drops provide a two chances at a slot machine dopamine hit. The first when you get the drop and the second when you identify the actual item. While their original work did not include the level of monetization as DI, it did show how game designers were looking at systems to exploit entice players to keep playing.

Without RMT system tied to those systems, the worst thing that could happen is that you cause players to trade in a lot of time. Which can be bad, see examples of where players were so engaged they neglected their own responsibilities. But when you start tying RMT into those systems, it's can be exploitive.

So then the question is whether such games should be allowed to exist and if regulatory agencies should get involved to limit or restrict these kinds of games.

Wasn't there a recent lawsuit filed against TCG because of how easy it was for a child to run up thousands of dollars because they wanted more card packs?

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Actually only thing you can buy in D3 with actual cash is the expansion and necromancer

Sure now after Reaper of Souls xpac... but prior to that... who else remembers Real Money AH?

[Elim Garak]

Well I'd be careful there because by that argument, Big Tobacco shouldn't be liable for all the millions of people affected hooked on their product.

And Coca/Pepsi-cola companies should be held liable for hooking people on sugar (HCFS) and causing obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer epidemics?

Oh wait, that was the government's fight on fat (or rather corn industry subsidizing). Well, government then.

Without RMT system tied to those systems, the worst thing that could happen is that you cause players to trade in a lot of time. Which can be bad, see examples of where players were so engaged they neglected their own responsibilities. But when you start tying RMT into those systems, it's can be exploitive.

Diablo 2 had no RMT system

But

It had real money black market.

Money find the way.

[Alroxas]

Interesting, why is there no outcry about the fact that Blizzard treats them as second class to the Chinese?

To be fair, the PC gaming scene over there are vastly different than "in the west". For instance, most players in China don't have their own personal computer rigs. Instead they go to computer cafes to play. And those cafes typically charge per hour of usage so their monetization structures are quite different.

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And Coca/Pepsi-cola companies should be held liable for hooking people on sugar (HCFS) and causing obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer epidemics?

Well I think NYC tried to legislate a soda tax... And I digress here a bit, doesn't Coca-Cola/Pepsi now also offer sugar free variants of their popular products?

It might be a bit of a "nanny-state" idea for the government to be so involved in regulating good/bad things for their population. But then that's a much larger discussion on what role the government should play in the lives of its citizens. Specifically where the line is for regulation because most of us don't have an issue with things like seat belts or air bags or preventing companies from putting adulterants in our food. Yet we're very touchy about other issues.

Diablo 2 had no RMT system But It had real money black market. Money find the way.

True but D2 RMT black market wasn't run by Blizzard (that we know of)... whereas DI MTX is 100% run by Activision-Blizzard but it still doesn't make RMT a positive thing for either game.

[Elim Garak]

Well I think NYC tried to legislate a soda tax... And I digress here a bit, doesn't Coca-Cola/Pepsi now also offer sugar free variants of their popular products?

It might be a bit of a "nanny-state" idea for the government to be so involved in regulating good/bad things for their population. But then that's a much larger discussion on what role the government should play in the lives of its citizens. Specifically where the line is for regulation because most of us don't have an issue with things like seat belts or air bags or preventing companies from putting adulterants in our food. Yet we're very touchy about other issues.

I have issue with seat-belts and air bags - they made cars more expensive by adding security measures I didn't ask for without giving me the right to choose. But for my protection. It's bullshit.

True but D2 RMT black market wasn't run by Blizzard (that we know of)... whereas DI MTX is 100% run by Activision-Blizzard but it still doesn't make RMT a positive thing for either game.

Yes, it was run by players. Players wanted RMT in diablo 2 and they added it.
If you think MTX were invented by developers and then forced on the players - it was the other way around. Players wanted MTX.

[Alroxas]

I have issue with seat-belts and air bags - they made cars more expensive by adding security measures I didn't ask for without giving me the right to choose. But for my protection. It's bullshit.

You can't be serious... So you would be fine with driving around without seat belts and air bags? What if your family (or other loved ones) were in the car with you? And remember it's not that your driving skill at issue here but rather some other person who shouldn't be driving somehow strikes your vehicle.

Yes, it was run by players. Players wanted RMT in diablo 2 and they added it.
If you think MTX were invented by developers and then forced on the players - it was the other way around. Players wanted MTX.

Not every player wanted it... I certainly didn't. If anything those systems (whether company driven or player driven) formed because of the way loot is generated/distributed. RNG vs deterministic loot systems if you will. For some people, it's not worth their time to spend the hours to "get a lucky" RNG drop and they would rather pay to short cut that time investment.

Alternatively the game designers could have made their game without that kind of RNG system (or build in a kind of bad luck protection / pity system).

Funny enough, DI does have a pity system where after 50 Legendary Crests used without getting a 5 star gem, you get a gem... at 1 out of 5 gem. What's predatory is that you can't buy 50 legendary crests... instead they come in bundles of 45 so you're always just a wee bit short. Unless you want to shell out for another bundle of crests. A question arises why Blizzard chose 45 crests to sell instead of 50 (or even increments of 5)...

But alas that just 1 more nail in DI coffin at least for me.

[The Stormbringer]

I'm sure no-one cares, but I've changed my mind... not even gonna bother playing Diablo Immortal anymore. The pay-to-win is so disgusting. If I get the itch to play Diablo, I'll just play Diablo 3 some more.

[Elim Garak]

You can't be serious... So you would be fine with driving around without seat belts and air bags? What if your family (or other loved ones) were in the car with you? And remember it's not that your driving skill at issue here but rather some other person who shouldn't be driving somehow strikes your vehicle.

What I'd do is irrelevant if I have no choice and the government, contrary to popular belief, doesn't know what's better for me.

I'd rather buy a cheaper car, and install security measures (for cheaper as well) that I deem necessary for me and my family - we are adults we can figure it out.

Not every player wanted it... I certainly didn't.

Enough people wanted it for the f2p market to explode.
Facts speak for themselves regardless of what individual gamers want or not

[Dhrizzle]

You can't be serious... So you would be fine with driving around without seat belts and air bags? What if your family (or other loved ones) were in the car with you? And remember it's not that your driving skill at issue here but rather some other person who shouldn't be driving somehow strikes your vehicle.




Not every player wanted it... I certainly didn't. If anything those systems (whether company driven or player driven) formed because of the way loot is generated/distributed. RNG vs deterministic loot systems if you will. For some people, it's not worth their time to spend the hours to "get a lucky" RNG drop and they would rather pay to short cut that time investment.

Alternatively the game designers could have made their game without that kind of RNG system (or build in a kind of bad luck protection / pity system).

Funny enough, DI does have a pity system where after 50 Legendary Crests used without getting a 5 star gem, you get a gem... at 1 out of 5 gem. What's predatory is that you can't buy 50 legendary crests... instead they come in bundles of 45 so you're always just a wee bit short. Unless you want to shell out for another bundle of crests. A question arises why Blizzard chose 45 crests to sell instead of 50 (or even increments of 5)...

But alas that just 1 more nail in DI coffin at least for me.

What region are you playing in? In the UK store they're bought singularly or in packs of 10.

[Aliven]

and if you boycot it, they make the same amount of money with less players, so why would they care?
if you never spend dime it makes no difference to them if you play or not... actualy, if any, if you play and dont pay it sends message you like the game but not the monetisation, if you dont play the message is you are not interested in game...



so people who like it shouldnt play it bcs in future they might get more games like the game they like? i mean... how is that bad for people who do like it?
its bad for people who DONT like it, but why should those who like it care about them, since they clearly dont reciprocate...

If f2p players would leave then the game would die. Whales just want to either help or hinder non whales. They are not interested in playing with or against other whales. So yes, actually not playing this game would let to better games in the future. Unless you like being a victim or a pet.

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It’s nasty but it’s exact how it’s supposed to work in a mtx game.

Especially in ARPGs, the amount of hardcore grinders with no life is absurd. If grinding can delete the benefits of using the shop, the shop becomes useless.

If mtx is your business model there HAVE to be things you cannot do unless you spend money, to give your purchases a value.

I do think that some concessions to f2p players will come, with time but whales will always have the upper hand.

And people are ok with that because...?