Tier Sets on Dracthyr Evokers - Is this possible?

[DatToffer]

Isn't the Drac'thyr being unable to wear all armor just the same as a unique racial druid form though? Both have customization options and the Drac'thyr are implied to be getting more levels of customization then druids. Though their (and dragon riding) system could easily be expanded to druids, demons, hunter pets and what not

Not at all. But I see where our view on things differ.

I consider a druid not having unique racial druid forms a downgrade, because they'd receive less work than the other druids.

I consider a shapeshifting race who can't display gear on both shapes a downgrade for the same reason. They received less work than the other shapeshifting race.

I don't look at the dracthyr form as a druid form because it is not. It is not an appearance made to fulfill a specific role and it is not one of several.

If the dragon form was like the DH metamorphosis, restricted by conditions and cooldowns, appearing for only brief times, then I'd be okay with a unique ungearable skin. Because who cares, you only see the thing for 30 seconds top ?

But the dragon form is supposed to be their actual appearance and has the same purpose as the worgen form, a model that justifies them being a whole race. So the compromise of a visage form made up of the two most popular playable races with over-saturated customization options and a dragon form that can't display your transmog is unsatisfactory. Both forms in their own way shows that they didn't completely went through with their concept and I think it would have deserved more time and work before presentation.
I'm not gonna say "before release", because we are far from it. And since we are barely in alpha, things are likely to change. But for them to change, we need to communicate what changes would be welcomed, of course.

[Hitei]

Not at all. But I see where our view on things differ.

I consider a shapeshifting race who can't display gear on both shapes a downgrade for the same reason. They received less work than the other shapeshifting race

This is objectively incorrect, not a matter of differing views. Worgen received significantly less work than Dracthyr. The entire reason Dracthyr cannot wear those armor slots is because they got more work than most races.

[DatToffer]

This is objectively incorrect, not a matter of differing views. Worgen received significantly less work than Dracthyr. The entire reason Dracthyr cannot wear those armor slots is because they got more work than most races.

Excuse me, how in hell ?

[Hitei]

Excuse me, how in hell ?

You seem to be under the misinformed impression that the reason why Worgen can wear armor but Dracthyr cannot is because they "put more time into Worgen to allow them to be able to wear armor". This is wrong, not like "I disagree." I mean you are factually wrong.

The reason why Worgen are able to wear armor in their worgen form is that, like every other playable race in the game besides Mechagnomes, worgen bodies are static. Their legs are smooth, regular tubes (one set for female, one for male) that are texture wrapped, and pants in this game are flat images that are wrapped around those regular, static tubes (and then 3D assets attached to the waist). They are always the same tubes, skin options just change the fur textures applied to those same meshes, and armor just applies to those same meshes.

The reason why Dracthyr are unable to wear armor in their Dracthyr form is that, unlike every other playable race in the game besides Mechagnomes, Dracthyr bodies are not static. Their customization options include modified 3D models on their limbs and body. Their legs aren't just only regular tubes, you can also pick things like 3D plate ridges on the thighs and jutting spikes on the arms, etc. So you can no longer just slap on the flat, painted-on pants image onto the model, because potential customization means that image is getting wraped and distorted onto multiple meshes that do not act anything like what that texture was intended to be applied to.

The reason Dracthyr are unable to wear armor is because they had significantly more work put into them, and their model has actual model-level customization that is incompatible with the old flat armor textures. Not because Blizzard just didn't bother to map their bodies for armor texture application.

You can value armor more than those customizations, that's fine. But pretending that more work went into Worgen is just ignorant and objectively false.

[DatToffer]

You seem to be under the misinformed impression that the reason why Worgen can wear armor but Dracthyr cannot is because they "put more time into Worgen to allow them to be able to wear armor". This is wrong, not like "I disagree." I mean you are factually wrong.

The reason why Worgen are able to wear armor in their worgen form is that, like every other playable race in the game besides Mechagnomes, worgen bodies are static. Their legs are smooth, regular tubes (one set for female, one for male) that are texture wrapped, and pants in this game are flat images that are wrapped around those regular, static tubes (and then 3D assets attached to the waist). They are always the same tubes, skin options just change the fur textures applied to those same meshes, and armor just applies to those same meshes.

The reason why Dracthyr are unable to wear armor in their Dracthyr form is that, unlike every other playable race in the game besides Mechagnomes, Dracthyr bodies are not static. Their customization options include modified 3D models on their limbs and body. Their legs aren't just only regular tubes, you can also pick things like 3D plate rdiges on the thighs and jutting spikes on the arms, etc. So you can no longer just slap on the flat, painted-on pants image onto the model, because potential customization means that image is getting wraped and distorted onto multiple meshes that do not act anything like what that texture was intended to be applied to.

The reason Dracthyr are unable to wear armor is because they had significantly more work put into them, and their model has actual model-level customization that is incompatible with the old flat armor textures. Not because Blizzard just didn't bother to map their bodies for armor texture application.

You can value armor more than those customizations, that's fine. But pretending that more work went into Worgen is just ignorant and objectively false.

Okay so they put more work into the Dracthyr model itself and less work in adapting the armors to that model.

In the end, we still end up with an overall lesser result. But I get the technicality. Not sure it was worth getting all high and mighty on that though.

[Hitei]

Okay so they put more work into the Dracthyr model itself and less work in adapting the armors to that model.

No. Please stop. You made shit up without understanding the processes involved and now you are floundering and moving goal posts because you got caught in an embarrassing position. The effort involved in these two things are not comparable and you are just digging the hole deeper.

[DatToffer]

No. Please stop. You made shit up without understanding the processes involved and now you are floundering and moving goal posts because you got caught in an embarrassing position. The effort involved in these two things are not comparable and you are just digging the hole deeper.

Nah man. My discourse lacked precision and you actually taught me a thing on the dracthyr model creation. They did put more work on the dracthyr model and it's seemingly a design choice to prevent working on adapting gears to their bodies.

And still overall, we have a shapeshifting race who cannot display armor on both shapes. Which is objectively less than what we've had until now.

[rhorle]

And still overall, we have a shapeshifting race who cannot display armor on both shapes. Which is objectively less than what we've had until now.

So they are just like cat and bear Druids. Who can't display armor on one shape but can on their "base" shape.

[DatToffer]

So they are just like cat and bear Druids. Who can't display armor on one shape but can on their "base" shape.

Safe for the fact that they are not an appearance made to fulfill a specific role and are not one of several.

I guess they'd be like the DH metamorphosis, but with a permanent switch.

Which is the problem since this is supposed to be the race true appearance.

[rhorle]

Safe for the fact that they are not an appearance made to fulfill a specific role and are not one of several.

Cat and Bear exist to fill a specific role. Drac'thyr "dragon" fills a specific role of race/class identity since they are also the only race that can be Evoker. True appearance is irrelevant. Why does that matter? Would it be nice if Drac'thyr could wear all armor options? Certainly. They are getting "enhanced" customization and can show some armor so they are still going to be unique.

[FossilFree]

The question is will the community at large be okay with a ton of imperfections for the sake of wearing any armor set? Or is it better to restrict what shows so no imperfections exist?

Imperfections are fine and have been with us since the beginning. The ship sailed long ago on perfect armor, I don't see why it suddenly became a problem this time.

Let's take a closer look:

Head - Night Elf and Blood Elf ears and eyebrows have always clipped through helmets. It was never an issue before and most people don't even stop to think about it much. Worgen had their helms reshaped to fit their head shapes, so stretching them to fit is also not a big deal. That means Dracthyr horns clipping through and their helmets being reshaped is a non-issue.

Shoulders - Already showing.

Back - Cloaks would clip to the extreme, as large flat surfaces of three different model sections would be constantly moving perpendicular to each other. I will concede that cloaks should remain hidden, as this degree of clipping would be impossible to ignore or justify with things like "they cut holes in their helmets for horns."

Chest - Forsaken spines have always clipped through chestpieces, so Dracthyr wing bases clipping through is not a big deal at all. If textures stretch, check out Kul Tirans who already have stretching textures on their armor. Blizzard didn't make them nudists because of it though, and so Dracthyr should show chestpieces too.

Wrist - There is literally no reason to lock bracers already. No clipping, no stretching. I'm surprised they didn't toss these in with shoulders and belts to begin with.

Hands - Forsaken claws clip through the fingertips of gloves, and always have. There is no reason dragon claws couldn't also clip through. Another non-issue here.

Waist - Belts already show.

Legs - If Dracthyr tails clip through leggings, see the Draenei who have had tails clipping through their leggings since they were added. If textures stretch at all, see the note on Kul Tiran chestpieces again. Clearly there aren't any issues with leggings.

Boots - Odd shaped feet generally lack boots in WoW, like Draenei, Tauren, Trolls, and Worgen. So I could see this slot being disabled like cloaks. However, boots often have upper pieces that show even on these races, so I think that upper portion and any shin guard type parts to boots should still show on Dracthyr.

Weapons - 1h weapons can sit on the belt like normal without clipping anything. Staves can have their model attachment point between the two wing bases, so those shouldn't clip either. The only problem weapons would be the kind of 1h weapons that crossover on the back. Those can either be shunted to the belt position or disabled entirely from showing, but the rest should work fine on Dracthyr.

So there you have it, a good case could be made for restricting cloaks, lower boot sections, and back-sheathed 1h weapons, but everything else should be showing.

[Teriz]

Chances are Dracthyr won’t be one of the more popular races/classes.
Sure they’ll be up there for launch because everyone’s going to be making one like they do for every new class to ever exist.
But after that hype they’ll die down.

They’re only ranged and their healer spec fills a niche that isn’t even that common or important. If they could be tanks and/or melee DPS I’d see them being a bit more popular but nah.

They’re stuck to one race/class combo and their race doesn’t even look that good unless they’d fix it and/or go through with letting the visage form be a thing in combat.

Both of those’ll probably make the class/race one of the least played after a little bit unless they’re ridiculously overpowered for that long.

Eh, you're talking about a class that allows you to play as a dragon with the powers of Alexstraza, Onyxia/Deathwing, Kalecgos, Chromie, and Yesera, and literally fly around the battlefield in combat. On top of that, when you're not running around as a huge dragon, you're going to be an elf-like humanoid with a ridiculous amount of customizations.

Obligatory;



It's going to be wildly popular.

[Nightshade711]

Eh, you're talking about a class that allows you to play as a dragon with the powers of Alexstraza, Onyxia/Deathwing, Kalecgos, Chromie, and Yesera, and literally fly around the battlefield in combat. On top of that, when you're not running around as a huge dragon, you're going to be an elf-like humanoid with a ridiculous amount of customizations.

Obligatory;



It's going to be wildly popular.

Nah. We’ll see in 10.3/11.0 that Dracthyr numbers will likely be dropped down to the levels of Monks, which are the least popular of the newly added classes.

If they had more roles/more than two specs then maybe they’ll be more popular among the playerbase.

Hell even DHs didn’t get the same level of hate especially in terms of their appearance and they’re still not ‘one of the most popular classes’ right now and Illidan was far more iconic than any of the dragons.

I found some fan art too.

And yet Mechagnomes are the least played race in the game, weird. Almost like custom art made is always better than what we receive in game.

[rhorle]

It's going to be wildly popular.

That remains to be seen because it is also a race that is tied to one specific class. A class that will also heavily use the new charging mechanic so it might not something everyone likes to play. Sure most will probably create one and it will likely be common on RP realms because of RP. But it won't be as common as if it could be any class (or even just more then one).

[Teriz]

Nah. We’ll see in 10.3/11.0 that Dracthyr numbers will likely be dropped down to the levels of Monks, which are the least popular of the newly added classes.

If they had more roles/more than two specs then maybe they’ll be more popular among the playerbase.

Hell even DHs didn’t get the same level of hate especially in terms of their appearance and they’re still not ‘one of the most popular classes’ right now and Illidan was far more iconic than any of the dragons.

DH's numbers have suffered because they're melee DPS and Tanking, and when you get down to the meat and bones of it, the class never really offered anything new to the lineup outside of Double Jump. Melee DPS is saturated and/or undesirable at multiple levels of play, and tanking is also not a hugely popular role for many casual players. On the other hand, DEs have a new type of ranged DPS. Ranged DPS in general is more popular than melee DPS at multiple levels of play, and has been highly desired for quite some time. In addition, the DE is offering a potentially new type of healing spec. Healing is more popular for casual players than tanking.

Add on to this the fact that DEs are offering the player to play as a dragon, and to be a pseudo elf, and you have the ingredients of a very strong class.

I found some fan art too.
And yet Mechagnomes are the least played race in the game, weird. Almost like custom art made is always better than what we receive in game.

I didn't post that DE art to show that there's a groundswell of interest in the race/class, I showed that art to showcase what a DE can potentially look like.

The reason Mechagnomes are the least played race has multiple layers. The thickest layer being the lack of a class that matches their aesthetic. It's awfully difficult to play as a cyborg when your only class options are medieval classes. The other issue is that they have robotic limbs that can't be covered with armor, giving the character a strange appearance.

Dracthyr has a class specially designed just for them, and once again, their visage race is essentially a pseudo-elf. When your class is a dragon and your race is a elf, you have a very strong hand.

- - - Updated - - -

That remains to be seen because it is also a race that is tied to one specific class. A class that will also heavily use the new charging mechanic so it might not something everyone likes to play. Sure most will probably create one and it will likely be common on RP realms because of RP. But it won't be as common as if it could be any class (or even just more then one).

I don't believe that it being tied to a single class is a problem. The DE's success depends completely on whether the charging mechanic is successful. If it is, then the class has a high chance of being the top three of WoW's classes for the foreseeable future. Again, it's simply offering multiple things that other classes aren't offering currently.

[DatToffer]

Cat and Bear exist to fill a specific role. Drac'thyr "dragon" fills a specific role of race/class identity since they are also the only race that can be Evoker. True appearance is irrelevant. Why does that matter? Would it be nice if Drac'thyr could wear all armor options? Certainly. They are getting "enhanced" customization and can show some armor so they are still going to be unique.

Oh they'll be unique alright. No probs with that. But I do think the dragon form being the true appearance is important. Because it's their true form, it should be shown that this is what you're playing and the visage form is the disguise. And the best way to show that is to display your "hard-earned" transmog on it. Now the problem with having this permanent metamorphosis or this only druid form with customization is that it feels to be the optional one and that you're actually playing a male belf or a fem human with neon hair and scales glued on its face.

Which is why I keep comparing it to worgen. Both shapes display the transmog and out of combat they feel equal, which translates the different philosophies of worgen in lore. The ones who are completely okay with their worgen form and use it most of the time and whose who'd rather be in their human form and switch to fight.

Ultimately being forced to switch in worgen form in combat shows that you're truly playing a worgen. Now for Dracthyr, not being forced to switch in combat is actually not so bad because the visage form deviates a bit from being simply a belf or a human. But just a bit.

[Gorsameth]

Dracthyr have more effort spend on their model to the point where they can now no longer wear armour is not an argument in their favour, it just makes Blizzard look more stupid for investing time in actively removing an important feature to a significant part of the player base (the ability to play with our barbie transmog).

If you were to hold a survey on the entire WoW player base asking if they want to wear armour on their humanoid dragon or have actual 3d scales and ridges on their leg that they might be able to see if they zoom in close enough but not be able to wear armour I am very confident in what the result would be.

[Nyel]

Dracthyr have more effort spend on their model to the point where they can now no longer wear armour is not an argument in their favour, it just makes Blizzard look more stupid for investing time in actively removing an important feature to a significant part of the player base (the ability to play with our barbie transmog).

If you were to hold a survey on the entire WoW player base asking if they want to wear armour on their humanoid dragon or have actual 3d scales and ridges on their leg that they might be able to see if they zoom in close enough but not be able to wear armour I am very confident in what the result would be.

I'd even add that the overwhelming amount of players doesn't care at all about the new race / class. The very shallow and very tame "hype" of a new race-class has been pretty much died down and Dracthyr is anything but fresh, innovative or whatever. It's as bland and boring as it could be. That it looks pretty ugly on top of that doesn't help.

[Nightshade711]

I didn't post that DE art to show that there's a groundswell of interest in the race/class, I showed that art to showcase what a DE can potentially look like.

The reason Mechagnomes are the least played race has multiple layers. The thickest layer being the lack of a class that matches their aesthetic. It's awfully difficult to play as a cyborg when your only class options are medieval classes. The other issue is that they have robotic limbs that can't be covered with armor, giving the character a strange appearance.

Oh but tinkers are a very popular concept that every expansion has forum posts about and people asking for them.
Surely a race built around that aesthetic would be popular!

Dracthyr has a class specially designed just for them, and once again, their visage race is essentially a pseudo-elf. When your class is a dragon and your race is a elf, you have a very strong hand.

Kind of like Demon Hunters. The class was specifically designed for elves.
Demon hunters can only be an elf, and the class is based around a very popular and much more iconic character to WoW than dragons.

Yet they’re still not one of the most popular classes. Interesting.

[Teriz]

Oh but tinkers are a very popular concept that every expansion has forum posts about and people asking for them.
Surely a race built around that aesthetic would be popular!

No, because a race is not the same as a class. Racials aside, a Mechagnome is pretty much stuck with the same class options as anyone else. So no matter what class you choose, there’s better/more fitting racial options than the mechagnome.

For example, are you going to choose a Mechagnome monk over a Pandaren, Elf, or Human monk? Not likely. Are you going to pick a Mechagnome Warrior over an Orc, Tauren, Human, or Dwarf Warrior? Again, not likely. Are you going to pick a Mechagnome mage over a Human or Elf mage? Again, not likely. That is the core issue with the race, and Dracthyr won’t have that problem, since they’re the only ones who can be Evokers and vice versa.

Kind of like Demon Hunters. The class was specifically designed for elves.
Demon hunters can only be an elf, and the class is based around a very popular and much more iconic character to WoW than dragons.

Yet they’re still not one of the most popular classes. Interesting.

Again, you had melee DPS that really didn’t bring anything new to the table. Both that and tanking spec was pretty saturated when it entered the game, especially after Monks, DKs, and Survival going melee. Also, once the cool factor subsides, the gameplay is on the shallow side. That’s the core problem of the DH (along with nerfs), and it explains their sinking popularity.

Once again, DEs don’t have that problem, because it is bringing something new to the table, and the userbase wants a new RDPS and healer.