Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[xenogear3]

You can spend money to start a clan, reach end game and join the shadows to progress, which deletes your clan because it isn't a shadow clan.

In the beta, it costed 100K gold to create a clan.
Blizzard changes it to platinum the last minutes.
This game is too much for me.

Blizzard games are worse and worse.
I have $300 battle.net balance nothing to spend on.

[BeepBoo]

You can stick to whatever you want. Just know that you are wrong. Whales don't spend if there's no one to show off to. That's why Fortnite's Cosmetic only battle pass is so successful that even DI has it.

And yet here I've also given my own example of a megasuccessful game where no one does co-op and yet people still super-whale (not just streamers). Again, genshin doesn't have random match-made activities for anything good, just artifact farming, and I guarantee no one is doing grouping for that because it's so boring and faceroll. At best, they're grouping with friends.

You can go on making assumptions you're not logically allowed to make and assuming your examples are more valid than mine, but just know that you're not actually sure if you're right and have no reason to ACTUALLY think you're as right as you think you are.

[Delekii]

Really you doubt a company that supported the biggest MMO for almost 18 years and still keeps going with it?
A stupid mobile game is peanuts compared to that.

Your personal experience is not a valid basis for anything but your personal opinion.

And you base this on your gigantic amount of game development experience, correct?

[Elim Garak]

Or it could be a cleverly designed system to force players to buy just a bit more than they need to achieve the objective they want.

That assumes the knowledge of what the player wants. As I said overthinking. Seeing malice where there is none. Seek and you will find, right?

The little trick you were alluding to is to make your cheapest pack not to be enough to buy enough of the cheapest items - to trigger a second purchase. But that's mostly achieved by pricing the items above the pack. Since premium currency is not used exclusively for one kind of item and all packs cannot be priced against all items.

But people here are talking about $100 pack. As if a person dropping $100 - is tricked to have more orbs than he needs. Again assuming to know what that person needs.

[Dhrizzle]

Or it could be a cleverly designed system to force players to buy just a bit more than they need to achieve the objective they want.

For instance, Blizzard could have easily put in a SCALING slider allowing players to buy anywhere from 1 orb to 8000+ orb and compute the price of a formula. Then add a simple bonus system where if you spend X amount, they will "kick in" an extra amount of orbs.




Where did I say that orbs are only used for crests? I don't think that was ever my argument. My argument is that for a player who wants a guaranteed legendary gem (via the pity system) needs 50 crests which isn't easily obtainable in a single transaction of actually currency to item desired. As with many other mobile and F2P games, there's an intermediary currency that you have to purchase which obfuscates the actual cost AND is typically sold in such a way that you either have left over currency or you're short the exact amount needed.

It DOES NOT matter in this case study if Orbs can be used for anything else (i.e. Cosmetics, hilts, etc).



But if he doesn't care about the other stuff? Then he has left over currency. If his goal of buying Orbs is to ONLY get gems (via Legendary Crests) then he's basically screwed.

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Has there not been cases where people neglect their kids because they've been playing some online game so exclusively? And for gacha games, there is a monetary cost that is also a factor beyond just time invested.

So we're not just looking at mental health but also potentially financial health.

Yes yes, I know others will point out that if an addict knows what tempts him/her then they shouldn't engage in that activity, but as others have pointed out, sometimes folks don't even realize that they are addicts (or can be converted into one) due to the design of said product.

The solution to those issues was the Chinese government setting legal limits on how long people are allowed to play video games each day. I wonder how many people realise they are arguing for this sort of system when they protest "exploitative" and addictive video game mechanics.

[Elim Garak]

And yet here I've also given my own example of a megasuccessful game where no one does co-op and yet people still super-whale (not just streamers). Again, genshin doesn't have random match-made activities for anything good, just artifact farming, and I guarantee no one is doing grouping for that because it's so boring and faceroll. At best, they're grouping with friends.

First of all that's not the only reason to whale.
Secondly you cannot guarantee anythign in that regard
Lastly, friends are players too. And whaling for friends is even more appealing to whales, especially sharing the whale oil with them.

Whales are humans and subject to human psychology. It's just they have a lot more money and that changes perspectives for them in such a way that people with a simple office job cannot comprehend.

You can go on making assumptions you're not logically allowed to make and assuming your examples are more valid than mine, but just know that you're not actually sure if you're right and have no reason to ACTUALLY think you're as right as you think you are.

That's rather a very long way to say "you are invalid"

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And you base this on your gigantic amount of game development experience, correct?

And I base what?

[Alroxas]

DI is very popular in US on iOS devices.

#1 Downloads 1-8 June
#7 Revenue 1-8 June - above Genshin Impact, #1 is Candy Crush

Well it did just come out so I would expect downloads to be high initially. Let's see how DI downloads stack up after a month or two. Better yet, let's take a look at concurrent users at the 3 month mark.

Sure Blizzard just reported something like 10 million downloads of DI but how many are still playing (even at the very casual level)? Granted for Blizzard actual player base numbers don't mean much to them. They will be happy with the handful of whales that keep pouring money into their coffers which I guess is the goal anyway.

[Elim Garak]

Well it did just come out so I would expect downloads to be high initially. Let's see how DI downloads stack up after a month or two. Better yet, let's take a look at concurrent users at the 3 month mark.

Sure Blizzard just reported something like 10 million downloads of DI but how many are still playing (even at the very casual level)? Granted for Blizzard actual player base numbers don't mean much to them. They will be happy with the handful of whales that keep pouring money into their coffers which I guess is the goal anyway.

It's 10 days already. And it dominates the charts. Downloads will surely drop as the market is not infinite. But what they achieved is the feat of strength in mobile market. They are a hit.

[Alroxas]

But people here are talking about $100 pack. As if a person dropping $100 - is tricked to have more orbs than he needs. Again assuming to know what that person needs.

Go back and look at the math... A $100 pack can only buy you 45 crests... 5 short of the 50 you need to guarantee a legendary gem via DI's pity system.

[Elim Garak]

Go back and look at the math... A $100 pack can only buy you 45 crests... 5 short of the 50 you need to guarantee a legendary gem via DI's pity system.

Read again what you quoted. Emphasis as if "a person who dropped a $100" would care about THAT.

[Alroxas]

Read again what you quoted. Emphasis as if "a person who dropped a $100" would care about THAT.

And again, you keep side stepping the issue... You know what I'm done here... There's no moving the needle here and we're just going to agree to disagree period. Further discussion is quite frankly pointless. You're not going to change my opinion and I'm not going to change yours.

[Elim Garak]

It's hilarious how people who are not going to drop $100 on a pack complain about the imaginary issue that people who are dropping $100 are going to have, in their humble opinion, that they are not going to change.

[SunspotAnims]

I've not been following too clearly, is this a controversy that would be resolved if crests were removed? Like it's kinda strange to me that the thing pulling all the attention and headlines are freaking gems. It's like a weird dissonance where I could see myself buying a dozen cosmetic sets but never in my right mind would see the value in paying for a chance at an instant yellow shiny that is for sure a +goodness to my character but not in an interesting way like legendary gear. I'm not defending it, just confused as to how gems ended up being the hill everyone is fighting over.

[Ghost of Cow]

It's hilarious how people who are not going to drop $100 on a pack complain about the imaginary issue that people who are dropping $100 are going to have, in their humble opinion, that they are not going to change.

99% of this topic is predicated on imaginary people with imaginary issues.

"What if a kid installed it and what if they got their parents credit card and what if they spent $10,000 and what if it makes them a degen gambler?"

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I've not been following too clearly, is this a controversy that would be resolved if crests were removed? Like it's kinda strange to me that the thing pulling all the attention and headlines are freaking gems. It's like a weird dissonance where I could see myself buying a dozen cosmetic sets but never in my right mind would see the value in paying for a chance at an instant yellow shiny that is for sure a +goodness to my character but not in an interesting way like legendary gear. I'm not defending it, just confused as to how gems ended up being the hill everyone is fighting over.

Because all the initial youtube outrage hype videos focused on this projected "$10,000 to get a max gem" or whatever. So that shaped the whole argument.

[Elim Garak]

I've not been following too clearly, is this a controversy that would be resolved if crests were removed? Like it's kinda strange to me that the thing pulling all the attention and headlines are freaking gems. It's like a weird dissonance where I could see myself buying a dozen cosmetic sets but never in my right mind would see the value in paying for a chance at an instant yellow shiny that is for sure a +goodness to my character but not in an interesting way like legendary gear. I'm not defending it, just confused as to how gems ended up being the hill everyone is fighting over.

You don't need legendary crests like at all, if you are not concerned about not having a BIS in every slot like tomorrow.

[Delekii]

And again, you keep side stepping the issue... You know what I'm done here... There's no moving the needle here and we're just going to agree to disagree period. Further discussion is quite frankly pointless. You're not going to change my opinion and I'm not going to change yours.

He has 19678 posts and more than 200 in this thread alone; I have very serious doubts that he actually plays any game besides "contrarian dickhead on the forums".

I wonder if the choice of avatar is intentional:

Elim Garak - Underneath his friendly and charming exterior, he was a proficient assassin, saboteur and expert liar, able to adapt to a variety of situations.

[Alroxas]

I'm not defending it, just confused as to how gems ended up being the hill everyone is fighting over.

As others have pointed out, Gems are the only way to progress player power after a certain point in DI. And the mechanics for this system is heavily shrouded in the monetization scheme.... Effectively turning end-game DI into a Pay 2 Win game instead of a Free 2 Play game.

Overall monetization is generally fine with most objecting players when it's restrict to purely cosmetics that don't confer any player power. When you start linking player power to monetization that's typically when folks get up in arms about it.

[NineSpine]

You don't need legendary crests like at all, if you are not concerned about not having a BIS in every slot like tomorrow.

If you play the game without buying legendary crests or any of the other 86 forms of monetization in the game, progress is so absurdly slow as to be pointless. You are talking about taking months just to get chance at a modicum of progression. They hit you with a brick wall very quickly.

The point you keep sidestepping is that the game only has two options:

1. Virtually no progression
2. Spend an insane amount of money

There isn't really an in-between, because progress is so obnoxiously throttled. We aren't talking about "Pay to double or triple your rate of progress". We are talking about "Pay to increase your rate of progress to thousands of times the normal rate". This means the experience for anyone not paying is so throttled as to be a joke.

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I've not been following too clearly, is this a controversy that would be resolved if crests were removed? Like it's kinda strange to me that the thing pulling all the attention and headlines are freaking gems. It's like a weird dissonance where I could see myself buying a dozen cosmetic sets but never in my right mind would see the value in paying for a chance at an instant yellow shiny that is for sure a +goodness to my character but not in an interesting way like legendary gear. I'm not defending it, just confused as to how gems ended up being the hill everyone is fighting over.

They are the most egregious example, but they are not the only example. The entire game is constructed around sneaking in MXTs, and since it is so heavily throttled for anyone not paying, the game is pointless. Even if you spend $100 per month it is pointless. That's how slow progression is without paying huge amounts of money.

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You don't need legendary crests like at all, if you are not concerned about not having a BIS in every slot like tomorrow.

You get booted out of most groups for not bringing legendary crests.

[Witchblade77]

can I complain as someone who did buy a thing? is that allowed? cause I'm having serious regrets right now and I only spent $5. why you ask? because I'm realizing that the main thing I spent that $5 for - to unlock the paid track on battlepass and specificaly rank 40 outfit? I will likely will not get to with normal play. and I've been playing for couple of hours each day and I'm barely edging to rank 12 in battlepass, while the amount of points you need to reach each new rank - steadily increases. why am I complaining you ask? becasue its pretty fucking obvious to me that the goal here is to get me to spend MORE money to unlock the ranks I won't be able to reach naturally because I already have a sunk cost involved there.

combat in the game is so fun. it looks good. pc port is actualy pretty good. and then... there is monetization. you all arguing how its not predatory? when even the littlest things are nickel and dimed? oy.....

and yes I will keep playing for as long as I am having fun and while I'm doing so I'm basically learning to accept that whatever premium track rewards i WILL manage to unlock, are just going to have to be good enough, because while I have originally, genuinely considered buying their version of a monthly sub? I no longer want to give them a single penny more, not in its current state.

[SunspotAnims]

They are the most egregious example, but they are not the only example. The entire game is constructed around sneaking in MXTs, and since it is so heavily throttled for anyone not paying, the game is pointless. Even if you spend $100 per month it is pointless. That's how slow progression is without paying huge amounts of money.

I've played enough of the game to know what's in the shop, and I don't actually see your point that everything is being throttled. I haven't seen any EXP boosts or ways to buy gear; the throttling is, as far as I can tell, just related to gems and the different ways to obtain them. And that is pretty much the crux of my confusion: the pathway from crests to player power is so incredibly inscrutable that it doesn't seem remotely worth the money. Even though I know that power is the ultimate purpose of crests, I can't wrap my head around why someone would see actual dollar value in them even if buying their way to perfect BiS was their goal. I didn't even know that legendary gems had star ratings until seeing the outrage about it, and I still don't know what their star ratings actually mean. I would actually be more inclined to spend money if I could just outright buy legendary gems—that would of course be more brazen and I don't think anyone would be happy about it, but it least it remotely makes sense as to what you'd be spending your money on.

The whole system of buying crests to modify a rift to get gems that are hopefully the right gems to maybe make your character more powerful is so indirect and obfuscated that I can't see why anyone other than outraged streamers would spend money in that particular system and how it was even something Blizzard thought was worth staking the reputation of the game on.