Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Elim Garak]

I was naive like you...but i discovered why this type of games are popular after i played for the first time genshin impact.
Let me explain:

Dopamine hits with gambling
Throwing real money at the game also produces dopamine as hell
Gambling with real life money

You might look at my list and think..."wtf is this? what are you talking about?"
But long story short...is all about the dopamine hits and gambling with money.

What am i trying to say?
Im telling you WHY this "gacha" games are popular. Is because WASTING MONEY and GAMBLING is a feature for this crowd...and NOT a negative

It has nothing to do with dopamine.

Introverts are not sensitive to dopamine - yet they are the most of gamers.

[Big Thanks]

It has nothing to do with dopamine.

Introverts are not sensitive to dopamine - yet they are the most of gamers.

Nice try

I have an entire group of friends addicted to gacha games.

WE KNOW we are addicted to gacha...and the dopamine hits.
We call it what it is. Dopamine Fridays on discord.

[Elim Garak]

Did I say anything about a grindfest? I said that the fact that the game is structured in a way that people can functionally spend endless money for endless power gain means that the game is measurably worse for people that don't.

Did I say anything about you saying anything about a grindfest? Nope.

You can't realistically grind in DI as a free player or even a moderate spender.

So... a grindfest?

Hint: you can play DI without grinding and have fun.

- - - Updated - - -

Nice try

I have an entire group of friends addicted to gacha games.

WE KNOW we are addicted to gacha...and the dopamine hits.
We call it what it is. Dopamine Fridays on discord.

I don't know what you are addicted to.
Dopamine is irrelevant for introverts.

[mrgreenthump]

So... a grindfest?

No, it has soft caps so you can't grind it.

[Big Thanks]

I don't know what you are addicted to.
Dopamine is irrelevant for introverts.

Brother...stop.
Everyone feels dopamine.

Dopamine is not irrelevant to anyone.
You are literally a sick person if you dont feel/have dopamine.

I know this better than anyone else on this entire forum. So please dont speak of things you dont know...

[Delekii]

Did I say anything about you saying anything about a grindfest? Nope.

So... a grindfest?

Hint: you can play DI without grinding and have fun.

You can play chess without trying to catch the enemy king... You're just not really playing chess anymore.

[Guyviroth]

How is that different from pay $60 bucks and playing the game with little to none grindfest? Well, paying $60 upfront doesn't leave you any choice.

Because when I pay $60 for a game, the buck stops there. I now have a game which I can play, which I can enjoy, without design and balance philosophy getting in the way.

I'm not sure how experienced you are with various mobile titles, but I have played a lot. And I mean A LOT of them. Most of them boil down to a number of the same balancing and design bullshit:

-- Stupid high difficulty curve leads you to a brick wall where the only meaningful way of getting past it is to have a stringer team/units etc... which takes forever to farm because of low drop rates on upgrades etc. But you can pay to get guaranteed power.
-- Stupid stamina systems where every activity in the game chunks it away to the point you end up playing the game for about 5 minutes, then you have to wait several hours. But you can pay money to get that stamina back.
-- Timegates of hours, even days, to build something. Also you can only build two or three things at a time. But you can pay to bypass all of this.

So at this point, the game isn't fun. It's annoying and frustrating. It becomes a chore. It purposefully plays on the player's frustrations, addictions, etc to bait them into spending money.

So, some people might think, "oh, you've played so many mobile titles but you bitch about them, I bet you spent money." Well I will say this much:

-- Yes I have played many. I've also uninstalled many after the wonderful honeymoon period where these games will give you a shit ton of stuff as a new player, and then two weeks later it all runs out and you feel how much of a slog the game really is. This is what I usually do, because most of these types of games are egregious as all fuck.
-- No, I have not spend money on a mobile game, because what's the point? If the game stonewalls me for a stupidly long time unless I pay real money, its uninstalled and i go play something fun. If it doesn't stonewall me, then I continue playing normally.
-- Yes, I will continue to batch about these games because they're designed specifically to con people out of every last penny.

Having said that, I will also admit that, yes, I have found F2P games that are actually fun IMO that you don't need to pay a penny for it to be rewarding. Two of those are Dissidia Final Fantasy Opera Omnia, and Dragonball Legends. Those two I still play regularly, have not spent a dime on, and I can do most, if not all, of their content.

[Jerot]

It has nothing to do with dopamine.

Introverts are not sensitive to dopamine - yet they are the most of gamers.

I don't know what you are addicted to.
Dopamine is irrelevant for introverts.

This has to be the dumbest tangent yet, just stop.

Studies show they may be less sensitive to this kind of stimuli, but that hardly means they are immune, it's basic brain chemistry. And you even admitted yourself, this defense doesn't apply to everyone.

What are your sources on most gamers being introverts? I can link you to the ipsos marketing research showing gamers are more social and more active than non-gamers. More than 75% play games with other people online or in person.

[Big Thanks]

This has to be the dumbest tangent yet, just stop.

Studies show they may be less sensitive to this kind of stimuli, but that hardly means they are immune, it's basic brain chemistry. And you even admitted yourself, this defense doesn't apply to everyone.

What are your sources on most gamers being introverts? I can link you to the ipsos marketing research showing gamers are more social and more active than non-gamers. More than 75% play games with other people online or in person.

Gambling with real life money is a feature and not a negative for a specific crowd of players.
Not many people are talking about this...but is the reality for gacha gamers.

In regards to the dopamine thing.
I suffer from a disease that creates too much dopamine (paranoid schizophrenia) and the opposite disease is called parkinson's disease (too low dopamine)
Everyone needs and feels dopamine to live a normal life.
I know a lot about this topic because i literally struggle with it a lot

[Elim Garak]

No, it has soft caps so you can't grind it.

a soft cap means it gets grindier, meaning that you can still grind it.

Brother...stop.
Everyone feels dopamine.

I didn't say otherwise.
Introverts are overwhelmed by dopamine and shutdown when it's too much - it cannot trigger any addiction - quite the opposite - AVERSION.

You can play chess without trying to catch the enemy king... You're just not really playing chess anymore.

The goal of chess though is to get the king. The goal of diablo is not to get 5-star gems.

Because when I pay $60 for a game, the buck stops there.

First of all, no, it doesn't stop there.
Secondly and lastly, in f2p games YOU decide where the buck stops.

Studies show they may be less sensitive to this kind of stimuli, but that hardly means they are immune, it's basic brain chemistry. And you even admitted yourself, this defense doesn't apply to everyone.

What are your sources on most gamers being introverts? I can link you to the ipsos marketing research showing gamers are more social and more active than non-gamers. More than 75% play games with other people online or in person.

They are more social online, yes, exactly because they are introverts.
Also introvert doesn't mean asocial. You are confusing introversion with shyness. A rookie mistake.

[Ghost of Cow]

Oh well. Give it another 16 years and every game will become an endless chore/grindfest that you'll have to pay more money than an actual AAA title's RRP to get anywhere in it.

The weird thing is that MMOs have been doing this for a while now, but it seems like no one really noticed.

MTX gets all the publicity and outrage, so people rail against that. But MMOs just keep flying under the radar when it comes to "games that are designed to be grindfests and timesinks while charging you to keep playing".

- - - Updated - - -

Gambling with real life money is a feature and not a negative for a specific crowd of players.
Not many people are talking about this...but is the reality for gacha gamers.

Indeed, it's a form of entertainment for them.

And just because casinos exist, it doesn't mean that...um, I don't know...water parks will stop existing.

[Elim Garak]

Indeed, it's a form of entertainment for them.

And just because casinos exist, it doesn't mean that...um, I don't know...water parks will stop existing.

Water addiction is a serious issue though. Every single human is hooked up and there's no solution - other than water itself.

[Guyviroth]

First of all, no, it doesn't stop there.
Secondly and lastly, in f2p games YOU decide where the buck stops.

Oh? Are you certain about that? Because when I bought MGS V, I paid for the game and no more. When I bought Pokemon Legends Arceus, the same thing happened. And again with Diablo 3. And again with Resident evil 2 and 3. You get the idea.

But you're more than welcome to list some $60 games where the buck doesn't stop. I shall wait patiently.

[Elim Garak]

Oh? Are you certain about that? Because when I bought MGS V, I paid for the game and no more. When I bought Pokemon Legends Arceus, the same thing happened. And again with Diablo 3. And again with Resident evil 2 and 3. You get the idea.

But you're more than welcome to list some $60 games where the buck doesn't stop. I shall wait patiently.

You didn't buy d3 expansions? Wow, well you chose to stop the buck there.
And for an example of never stopping buck: WOW

[Ghost of Cow]

But you're more than welcome to list some $60 games where the buck doesn't stop. I shall wait patiently.

Every WoW expansion!

MMOs aside, c'mon, you know there are B2P games with DLC and other continuing purchases. Don't make us go drag a list off Steam or something.

[Big Thanks]

I didn't say otherwise.
Introverts are overwhelmed by dopamine and shutdown when it's too much - it cannot trigger any addiction - quite the opposite - AVERSION.

You are saying dopamine is not addictive. Ever heard of cocaine? Thats dopamine drug sold out there. Not addictive? humm?
Fun fact, you cant feel an orgasm if you cant feel dopamine.

Please...just stop pretending you know about this topic.

I know all about it because i suffer from it a lot
Ill just stop replying to you...even if you reply back...this is just sad

[Elim Garak]

You are saying dopamine is not addictive. Ever heard of cocaine? Thats dopamine drug sold out there. Not addictive? humm?

Cocaine is not dopamine

Dopamine is not addictive - because it's endogenic. just like endorphins (which is endogenic morphine)

Drugs like cocaine subvert the dopamine path - replacing it in a different way to which you get addicted.

Again, if you claim that f2p trigger dopamine addiction - then introverts are super safe. Because too much dopamine for them is PAIN.

[Ghost of Cow]

Cocaine is not dopamine

Dopamine is not addictive - because it's endogenic. just like endorphins (which is endogenic morphine)

Drugs like cocaine subvert the dopamine path - replacing it in a different way to which you get addicted.

Again, if you claim that f2p trigger dopamine addiction - then introverts are super safe. Because too much dopamine for them is PAIN.

It's kinda splitting hairs, since you can't be physically addicted to dopamine itself but you can definitely form an unhealthy addiction to something that releases it.

[Elim Garak]

It's kinda splitting hairs, since you can't be physically addicted to dopamine itself but you can definitely form an unhealthy addiction to something that releases it.

Sure, like eating tasty food. But that's a person problem if they eat too much without self-control - not the food's

[Guyviroth]

Every WoW expansion!

MMOs aside, c'mon, you know there are B2P games with DLC and other continuing purchases. Don't make us go drag a list off Steam or something.

Fair enough, that point is conceded. However, that wasn't the point of my original post. The point of it was about games being balanced in a way in which progress is gated behind high walls that either takes forever to get over, or you can pay to get over it.

To the point of DLC and expansions, those are specifically to access additional content that wasnt in the game at launch, not to get to content that's already there (unless you're 2010 era Capcom with their disk-locked content), so it's a noncomparison in any case.

Subscriptions are also another point of debate, which I can admit is hit and miss. Is the sub worth the service? Am I getting enough bang for my buck? For me personally, for WoW at least, it is. I can play the entire game, all of its content, without feeling like I'm being stonewalled every two days like I do with most mobile games. The only thing stopping me from playing those higher endgame modes (mythic raiding, 20+ keys) is my own lack of skill and lack of desire. I can't pay money to improve that.

So, again, my point is how most mobile games are balanced and designed around "encouraging" you to pay to progress. It's no longer about who has the most skill, but about who has the most money.