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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Azerox's Avatar
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    Can't even remember, so lame it was.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange Aeons even Death may die.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I didn't consider Arthas' Shadowlands cameo to be an "end," really; his story concluded in WotLK satisfactorily enough. His presence in Shadowlands is pretty much the barest whisper of an echo, a final wisp of an already vanquished character.
    Yeah, Shadowlands wasn't about Arthas it was about his lingering effects on Uther and Sylvanas.

  3. #23
    I think Shadowlands handling of the Lich King story as a whole was terrible. Easily the worst storytelling in WoW to date. It was basically them scrapping the bottom of the barrel for lore character they could throw into a raid rather than spend the time to develop new ones.

    At best it was completely unnecessary. At worst it actively destroyed old lore like pre-retcon KT.

  4. #24
    Everything after Legion could be non-canon and all would be better. A fever dream after concussion.

  5. #25
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Not making a big deal out of it was one of the few good decisions in the expansion. They'd already wrapped up his story in Wrath, focusing on the effects he's had on those still alive long after he's gone is one of the few bits of subtlety they managed.
    The problem is that they used Arthas to:
    1) Sell Shadowlands by hinting at him being in it via the Afterlives series.
    2) Provide Sylvanas unearned closure.

    I agree that it's probably better that they didn't use him in a meaningful way, but the story as-is, I think, made more people angry than made satisfied.
    - People who "hype bought" the expansion were mad because they were expecting Arthas and they got Diet Anduin.
    - Many people who were satisfied with the Arthas ending of Wrath were mad because the Shadowlands additions cheapened the ending instead of enhancing it.
    - People who were already mad about Sylvanas being shoved down their throats were made extra-mad because Arthas was used to only give Sylvanas a one-liner that was almost as mocked as the "I will never serve" line.

    There probably wasn't a "win" scenario for Blizzard after deciding to have Arthas play a minor part, but I think "meh" is probably understating the multi-platform backlash to the cinematic.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  6. #26
    I don't think it was horrible how they ended Arthas, he's story was mostly over like most have already said. What I hated was that he basically got monologue'd into non existence by that banshee bitch. Jaina had nothing to say? None of them had anything to say? They also did garrosh wrong too, why did we not take his soul to maldraxxus where it belongs.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The problem is that they used Arthas to:
    1) Sell Shadowlands by hinting at him being in it via the Afterlives series.
    2) Provide Sylvanas unearned closure.

    I agree that it's probably better that they didn't use him in a meaningful way, but the story as-is, I think, made more people angry than made satisfied.
    - People who "hype bought" the expansion were mad because they were expecting Arthas and they got Diet Anduin.
    - Many people who were satisfied with the Arthas ending of Wrath were mad because the Shadowlands additions cheapened the ending instead of enhancing it.
    - People who were already mad about Sylvanas being shoved down their throats were made extra-mad because Arthas was used to only give Sylvanas a one-liner that was almost as mocked as the "I will never serve" line.

    There probably wasn't a "win" scenario for Blizzard after deciding to have Arthas play a minor part, but I think "meh" is probably understating the multi-platform backlash to the cinematic.
    Oh, people were assmad, but the people at large also nodded along to the Sadfang cinematics so their taste is worthless as far as a barometer of quality goes.

    Arthas was approached throughout the entirety of Uther's storyline whereas Jaina herself got her closure in her relationship to him both in Wrath and in side-books. The only one to not have any kind of resolution to their engagement with Arthas was the one who was the most adversely affected by him, being Sylvanas. Sylvanas as regards Wrath failed to achieve anything and not in any kind of narrative sense but because she simply didn't have the power level to be relevant vs. Arthas and so had her and Jaina's storylines outsourced to a generic human paladin. Any story that aims to wrap up Sylvanas's plot must address the most pertinent character in her entire life in Arthas and let her speak her piece on it.

    There was no ending Shadowlands could've provided that would've been better than the Wrath ending for Arthas, an ending that also got a lot of shit despite ultimately being in the narrative's favour, but what Shadowlands could and did do was settle all the engagements with Arthas of all characters who hitherto hadn't had the chance. Uther, as the one closest to him personally as regards his guilt got the most extensive one, and the one who's entire predicament stems from Arthas finally got to actually engage with this story-wise for the first time since TFT.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-06-15 at 02:27 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    There is one thing I will not forgive them, who had the last word with him...
    Uther? His mentor, who taught him the ways of the Light and almost a father-like figure? Nooo...
    Jaina? His lover? The one he missed most for almost his entire life? Nooo...

    It's fucking Windrunner who says that he should be forgotten. XD
    It's World of Sylvanascraft, I'm afraid. Either on Horde or Alliance, she will be a focus point.
    Mother pus bucket!

  9. #29
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I didn't consider Arthas' Shadowlands cameo to be an "end," really; his story concluded in WotLK satisfactorily enough. His presence in Shadowlands is pretty much the barest whisper of an echo, a final wisp of an already vanquished character.
    Exactly, that is spot on imo.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    But yes. A "meh" ending indeed. Most charismatic villain in the warcraft universe and he just kinda "disappears."
    I'm really not sure if this is the end of Arthas. Of course in the cutscene it seems clear: the last remnant of his souls is vanished. No more Arthas.
    But if you take a look at the fight Arthas is clear evil there for the whole time. There is no confusion, no struggling. He hates and spit hate to everyone he talks to. Of course you can argue that he lost his humanity and his original personality during the lot of fusion, transformation, being the Lich King. And what remained of him is pure evil. Or... with Uther and Sylvanas it was made clear that souls can be split. Their split was attributed to being slain by the Frostmourne, but there is no reason to think that there is no other way to split souls. What if Arthas as Lich King was pure evil not because his heart was destroyed or because the fusion with Ner'zhul, but because the Jailer split his soul too? But that would mean the "hero" Arthas is still somewhere, most likely in the Maw or in Torghast. Which of course would mean sooner or later Sylvanas will find him... which sounds like a possible story arc.

    So while Arthas's cutscene seems like a complete closure, generally I think they left the story open. Either unintentionally or intentionally.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathfaern View Post
    I'm really not sure if this is the end of Arthas. Of course in the cutscene it seems clear: the last remnant of his souls is vanished. No more Arthas.
    But if you take a look at the fight Arthas is clear evil there for the whole time. There is no confusion, no struggling. He hates and spit hate to everyone he talks to. Of course you can argue that he lost his humanity and his original personality during the lot of fusion, transformation, being the Lich King. And what remained of him is pure evil. Or... with Uther and Sylvanas it was made clear that souls can be split. Their split was attributed to being slain by the Frostmourne, but there is no reason to think that there is no other way to split souls. What if Arthas as Lich King was pure evil not because his heart was destroyed or because the fusion with Ner'zhul, but because the Jailer split his soul too? But that would mean the "hero" Arthas is still somewhere, most likely in the Maw or in Torghast. Which of course would mean sooner or later Sylvanas will find him... which sounds like a possible story arc.

    So while Arthas's cutscene seems like a complete closure, generally I think they left the story open. Either unintentionally or intentionally.
    But you forget one key thing they f'ed up while coming up with the janitor. Arthas resisted the janitors plans while he was in control of the Scourge. That is the reason why Sylvanas was "given" free will to be a obedient pawn.

  12. #32
    Arthas soul got claimed by Frostmourn once he picked it, it's one of the first lines of the undead campaign in W3.

    Also Chadthas never get his fusion with Ner'Zhul, he stab Ner'Zhul inside the helmet and kill his soul. Then, about the Jailer, he pretty much f***ed up his plan.

    Also even if his soul got claimed by frostmourn he locked his humanity into his heart that he drop under ICC.

    Arthas end up as a pragmatic vilain, livings are weak due to the emotion, they got corrupted easily, but mind controlled undead can't, he was the only one able to fight back the Burning Legion and the void (with now, pushing back the Janitor).

    After all he endured durring W3 (and earlier in his life), he chose the win at all cost and feared to lost everything again and again. Arthas in shadowlands with every part of his soul reunited would have been amazing.

  13. #33
    I like the idea that at this point there's nothing really left of Arthas' soul, after all that happened to it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    The entire story around Uther, Devos and Arthas was meh.
    Uther was alright. Devos and the foresworn needed more time to be fleshed out. Arthas ending was just.... absolutely horrendous..

    SL's story could not be fit into one expansion. ( Maybe it could've been if they didn't rush it ) but honestly. The jailer and SL would've been a slight bit better if they didn't say "This was the story building since warcraft 3" when we all know it wasn't since we never ever once heard of this Jailer figure... EVER.. even during wrath.. Not one hint. The dreadlords always seemed to be working for Sargeras and the legion.

  15. #35
    I am Murloc!
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    I'm not sure what people really wanted? Him to come back and apologize, or be the hero we always wanted?

    Do I like the ending? Not really. But any attempt to bring him back to change the course of his actions would've been way worse IMO. I think it was a nice touch to mention him, but it would be awful if they tried to expand upon him, let alone redeem him at the end. 99% of his legacy died on TFT well over a decade ago, and even then (to me, it was kind of meh). Let it rest there.

    Sylvanas hogging dialogue is a notable mention, but what honestly could Uther or Jaina really say to him? As much as I dislike Sylvanas as a character, her character more than either of those had far more recent interactions with Arthas as a character. Jaina is honestly a cliff note for Arthas, dating all the way back to the half way mark of the first campaign in WC3:RoC, and Uther not much after.

    TLDR; Yeah it was whatever, but the characters arc was 'done' years ago.

  16. #36
    The best thing to do was not mention him at all if this was all they can do.

    Second best would probably have him replying faintly 'I'll still be waiting for you Sylvanas,' in response to her 'I'm not the baddie YOU are' speech.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  17. #37
    I would much rather prefer he receive the treatment he did in SL versus anything else. The supreme incompetency right now of the team would have only ruined his character.

  18. #38
    High Overlord PsychoSe7eN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    Everything after Legion could be non-canon and all would be better. A fever dream after concussion.
    LMFAO 100% agree

  19. #39
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I haven't seen a single person who was satisfied with Arthas' ending in SL. It's either meh,sucked or horrible. Never seen anyone say "what a great ending!".
    I've seen some people feel it was deserved because they hate his character and wiping their hands of him in any way is fine in their book (similar to how people feel about Sylvanas).

    Tbh, I felt that way about Illidan playing nonsensical Titan babysitter. I didn't mind how dumb the concept was, because I was tired of seeing him in the narrative.
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  20. #40
    Brewmaster Nemah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I didn't consider Arthas' Shadowlands cameo to be an "end," really; his story concluded in WotLK satisfactorily enough. His presence in Shadowlands is pretty much the barest whisper of an echo, a final wisp of an already vanquished character.
    This, pretty much. I didn't hate the cameo or "end" of his soul. The idea of a character with his arc being utterly consumed until there was nothing left isn't so much a bad end to the overall story. It's sort of a "wages of sin" theme - that the price of all that evil (whether just a puppet or not) was oblivion. Not even good enough for hell.

    That being said, I could've done without Sylvannas having the last word sort of thing. I think they could've done better than that.

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