1. #2281
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Think before you spend your savings?
    NAAAAAAAAH, let's blame some video games and shit

    I still read these hilarious articles about a parent giving his child iPad or similar tablet that has credit card info tied to it and then complaining about thousands of dollars spent, cracks me up every time
    Why do morons like you keep saying this?

    It's like people who say fat people should "just lose weight" or gamblers should "just stop gambling". It overtly paints you as willfully ignorant at best.

    Impulse control-related disorders have been in the DSM-5 since 2013, and recognised widely long before that. Do you just not believe in impulse control disorders at all? Do you tell people with cancer to just not get cancer? It's ironic that you bring up the example of a child, since children are definitionally lacking in impulse control.

    This game and others like it prey on people with reduced capacity to control impulsive behavior, in many different ways. Do you honestly believe that Blizzard should have the unfettered ability to target people's self-destructive impulsivity when the outcome is that they ruin their life?

    It isn't Blizzard's fault that people have impulse control disorders, but it absolutely is their fault that every aspect of their design is overtly aimed at exploiting them.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2022-06-17 at 10:28 AM.

  2. #2282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    It isn't Blizzard's fault that people have impulse control disorders, but it absolutely is their fault that every aspect of their design is overtly aimed at exploiting them.
    Ditto.

    I just don't understand people defending it - this shit is aimed at you and even if you are a pinnacle of stoicism, then it will still catch your relatives, friends or yes children. And it's made to do so, it's rigged to bait people into slipping up.

  3. #2283
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Why do morons like you keep saying this?

    It's like people who say fat people should "just lose weight" or gamblers should "just stop gambling". It overtly paints you as willfully ignorant at best.

    Impulse control-related disorders have been in the DSM-5 since 2013, and recognised widely long before that. Do you just not believe in impulse control disorders at all? Do you tell people with cancer to just not get cancer? It's ironic that you bring up the example of a child, since children are definitionally lacking in impulse control.

    This game and others like it prey on people with reduced capacity to control impulsive behavior, in many different ways. Do you honestly believe that Blizzard should have the unfettered ability to target people's self-destructive impulsivity when the outcome is that they ruin their life?

    It isn't Blizzard's fault that people have impulse control disorders, but it absolutely is their fault that every aspect of their design is overtly aimed at exploiting them.
    Do you really think that just because there are ~5% of population with compulsive shopping disorder (mostly women) - we should regulate how video games are made (yes, because you like to point out how monetization affects game design - it works both ways)?

    Fuck them. They should seek help - not government protection.

    Any suggestion that developers specifically exploit them - is insane. Those people don't have the money, and there's only ~5% of them in the ENTIRE population. And not all of them are even gamers.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  4. #2284
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Do you really think that just because there are ~5% of population with compulsive shopping disorder (mostly women) - we should regulate how video games are made (yes, because you like to point out how monetization affects game design - it works both ways)?

    Fuck them. They should seek help - not government protection.

    Any suggestion that developers specifically exploit them - is insane. Those people don't have the money, and there's only ~5% of them in the ENTIRE population. And not all of them are even gamers.
    Firstly; yes. I do. If 5% (or even 0.5%) of your target game population is likely to suffer as a result of your product design you should feel a sense of moral obligation to reconsider that design. It is literally in the definition that people who fit within this category lack the mental capacity to make a decision appropriate for their situation, which in many cases also means "seeking help".

    Again; it's as dumb as telling a fat person to just lose weight. Most fat people know more about losing weight than any dietician or doctor; they've had a lifetime of fighting against impulse and losing more often than winning. It's not a matter of knowing the answer to the problem, but the capacity to act on it. If those people had the capacity to act they would not be fat, or gambling addicted.

    Furthermore, 5% are the ones that are bad enough to be clinically diagnosed as bad enough to meet DSM5 criteria. Every human being alive has some level of impulse control (or lack thereof). It's not a yes/no question. People along the entire spectrum are being exploited, not just the ones bad enough to be diagnosed.

    It's not a question of whether or not developers specifically exploit the 5% that match the DSM criteria; they design the systems in a way that aims to exploit EVERYONE. There is not a shadow of a doubt that a large team within the design space of Diablo Immortal consisted of psychologists and statisticians aiming at exactly this.

  5. #2285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Firstly; yes. I do. If 5% (or even 0.5%) of your target game population is likely to suffer as a result of your product design you should feel a sense of moral obligation to reconsider that design.
    Allrightythen.

    Let's ban retail games. Because if even a single person starves after spending $60 on a game they don't need - is a reason enough for the developers to reconsider their design.

    You do know what a compulsive buyer is, right? It's not just MTX.

    And I'm pretty sure your steam library has games in it you've never played, and probably will never play.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  6. #2286
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Allrightythen.

    Let's ban retail games. Because if even a single person starves after spending $60 on a game they don't need - is a reason enough for the developers to reconsider their design.

    You do know what a compulsive buyer is, right? It's not just MTX.

    And I'm pretty sure your steam library has games in it you've never played, and probably will never play.
    Slippery Slope Fallacy in a nutshell.

    If steam employed even a fraction of the practices contained in DI I'd agree with you. It doesn't.

    Again, this isn't a dichotomy; it isn't a case of "it's bad" and "it's good". Steam does some shithouse things too. Every company, every product in existence falls somewhere on the spectrum of shitty marketing practices. Steam is somewhere in the realm of "ouch, that poop was a little hard but I'm alright". DI is in the realm of "holy fuck I ate ghost peppers filled with razors and now this bastard is pouring vinegar on my arsehole while I diarrhoea that shit up. Also, there's no fucking toilet paper".

  7. #2287
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Slippery Slope Fallacy in a nutshell.

    If steam employed even a fraction of the practices contained in DI I'd agree with you. It doesn't.
    This is not about Steam but your ridiculous point about some poor fuck suffering after spending money on a game.
    There is nothing slippery, there's not even a slope, not even a nutshell.

    This is YOUR point. Your justification for why MTX are bad. Your proof that developers exploit the compulsive shoppers.

    You should either STAND BY IT - or abandon it. If you are intellectually honest that is. If not - keep doubling down on it being completely different thing.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  8. #2288
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    This is not about Steam but your ridiculous point about some poor fuck suffering after spending money on a game.
    There is nothing slippery, there's not even a slope, not even a nutshell.

    This is YOUR point. Your justification for why MTX are bad. Your proof that developers exploit the compulsive shoppers.

    You should either STAND BY IT - or abandon it. If you are intellectually honest that is. If not - keep doubling down on it being completely different thing.
    No, it's not. It's yours. I get that repeat ad infinitum regardless of reality is your modus operandi in argument style but wrong is wrong, even the 20th time you repeat it.

    Like I said about 30 pages ago, it worked for Trump but it doesn't work for you.

    272 posts in this thread now by you, btw. That's ~12% of all posts in this 2300 post thread. REPEAT LOUD. REPEAT OFTEN. TRUTH OPTIONAL.

  9. #2289
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Think before you spend your savings?
    NAAAAAAAAH, let's blame some video games and shit

    I still read these hilarious articles about a parent giving his child iPad or similar tablet that has credit card info tied to it and then complaining about thousands of dollars spent, cracks me up every time
    Nothing you have written there is in the slightest bit relevant to the problem. But keep on going.

  10. #2290
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    No, it's not. It's yours. I get that repeat ad infinitum regardless of reality is your modus operandi in argument style but wrong is wrong, even the 20th time you repeat it.

    Like I said about 30 pages ago, it worked for Trump but it doesn't work for you.

    272 posts in this thread now by you, btw. That's ~12% of all posts in this 2300 post thread. REPEAT LOUD. REPEAT OFTEN. TRUTH OPTIONAL.
    Classic Ad Hominem. Good day.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  11. #2291
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Classic Ad Hominem. Good day.
    I mean, it is ad hominem in that it is directed at you, but that was literally the point. Your argument style is the object of this particular argument, in that it relies on repeating untruths until people stop rebutting them. Ad hominem implies attacking the man instead of the argument, but you are the argument here.

    The actual content of your argument is nonsensical and has been since about 90 pages ago. That is literally the point.

  12. #2292
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    We are not asking governments to design the games, what an entirely disingenuous thing to say. People always cry on about wanting a totally free market, until they have to pay $25/L for gas, $700/month for power, and one company is able to take complete control of a market and charge $27,000 for a phone. Some want them to investigate the harmful, predatory, and addictive nature of modern game monetization, just like they investigate dodgy loansharks charging 900% interest on a loan, or a builder charging a 78yo widow $300,000 to build a 10m2 deck. The problem isnt that there are MTX in games, the problem is it is eseentially just another form of slot machine, gambling, but it is not regulated.
    Imagine equating a video game with price gouging of necessities, or actual scams.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Slippery Slope Fallacy in a nutshell.
    Except this is literally the argument from a lot of people. That someone might "overspend" on video games and somehow ruin themselves.

    If that's your argument for D:I then it necessarily has to be your argument for every other recreational/entertainment/luxury purchase. You need to start regulating big screen TV's and cars and jewelry and junk off HSN. (I know way more people that have gone into debt buying random junk off TV than from video games!)

    Because, "oh my god they're marketed to entice you to spend money on them!" and other silly things people have said in this thread.

  13. #2293
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Why do morons like you keep saying this?

    It's like people who say fat people should "just lose weight" or gamblers should "just stop gambling". It overtly paints you as willfully ignorant at best.

    Impulse control-related disorders have been in the DSM-5 since 2013, and recognised widely long before that. Do you just not believe in impulse control disorders at all? Do you tell people with cancer to just not get cancer? It's ironic that you bring up the example of a child, since children are definitionally lacking in impulse control.

    This game and others like it prey on people with reduced capacity to control impulsive behavior, in many different ways. Do you honestly believe that Blizzard should have the unfettered ability to target people's self-destructive impulsivity when the outcome is that they ruin their life?

    It isn't Blizzard's fault that people have impulse control disorders, but it absolutely is their fault that every aspect of their design is overtly aimed at exploiting them.
    Aside from that cancer comparison which makes no sense whatsoever

    Yeah, i think fat people should just lose weight, exercise and eat healthy IF they want to get slim.
    And gamblers should just stop gambling IF that will help them get on with their life or smth along those lines.
    Same goes for every habit or activity people have DIRECT control over.

    As for impulse control disorder - well those people should go seek professional help if that is the case, and if you look at the statistics - such people are a minority. And even though i am pretty skeptical when it comes to such disorders ( same goes for ADHD ) - keep those people away from gambling, provide professional help if necessary.

    You are forgetting one little thing, there are tons of P2W mobile games apart from Blizzard's DI that has been doing the same thing over and over for years. And what are you going to do about it?

  14. #2294
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    It's astounding how people want their government to dictate how games should be made. The best game designers are in the government!
    “It’s astounding how people want their government to dictate food safety standards! The best chefs are in the government!”
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  15. #2295
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    “It’s astounding how people want their government to dictate food safety standards! The best chefs are in the government!”
    FDA is the worst, the most corrupt offender of liberties.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  16. #2296
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Zero damage? isn't it funny how you keep using exaggeration.
    If you're unfamiliar with how exponentially scaling systems work, it seems unlikely that you've ever played any Diablo game at a meaningful level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    At the very best it tricks you at STARTING to waste money...only to realize later "this game is not for me anymore". (hook)
    As opposed to what, paying $60 for a game, playing it for 2 days, and realizing the same thing?

    Mobile games, even p2w ones, are much cheaper than regular gaming.
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  17. #2297
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    If you're unfamiliar with how exponentially scaling systems work, it seems unlikely that you've ever played any Diablo game at a meaningful level.
    It is still an exaggeration. A player that gears up to higher levels will also do way more damage then a player that does not. Both players can still do damage and so far there has been no indication that the game is tuned around requiring you to have high resonance.
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  18. #2298
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    “It’s astounding how people want their government to dictate food safety standards! The best chefs are in the government!”
    Some of you guys have been having real issues with things like agency and causation.

    I think we've been through this before regarding making choices versus having something happen to you, but yeah...your food having e.coli that you can't know about isn't the same thing as choosing to spend money in a game.

  19. #2299
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    As long as it’s not a lottery and you know what you’ll get before purchasing (with % chances clearly written) i don’t really see how you can legislate this.
    Should mtx be illegal tout court regardless the type? I don’t think so.
    Maybe if progression wasn't so tied to the MTX systems that DI has? Yes, we know that the free loaders can play grind for years to get up the levels that a payer can achieve in minutes but let's put that aside for a minute and look at the other ways the MTX are designed.

    In short, the conversion of RMT to Eternal Orbs to <insert whatever> is purposely designed so that payers don't have an exact way to buy what they are after. You want Legendary Crests? You're either going to be short by a handful (5 or 10 orbs short at the $5 USD and $10 USD pack sizes) or over (50 orbs over at the $25 size). You want reforging stones? Those are 100 orbs per, no perfect amount pack to buy except the $100 price point (which yields 7200 orbs = 72 stones). Dawning Echoes need 1k orbs so you're out of luck there as well.

    Blizzard could have made the cost amount = pack sizes or provided discrete pack sizes to match up to the common prices of those in-shop items. (How hard would it have been to offer a 100 orb pack size, a 160 orb pack size and a 1k orb pack size?). Or if Blizzard couldn't have been bothered to put in specific discrete pack sizes then give us a slider. Let me buy however many orbs from 1 to 1000 on a per Orb cost and you can even have those "bonus" percentage levels if the buyer gets over a certain value - Say at the $5 level, you get 1% bonus orbs "added for free (rounded down)" which then increases to 2% at $10, 5% at $25, etc etc.

    Or take the battle pass rewards, why limit the rewards to both daily log-ins and consecutive days logged in? Why not take the path of Lost Ark where you get the bonus for as long as you log in. 30 Days worth of log in rewards but with a 45~50 day window to claim them so that if a player misses a daily check-in, you're ok and don't lose the value of the BP that you bought (which is not the case currently).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Guys stop...

    This is a game for gacha gamer whalers...PERIOD
    The problem is how this may affect future development of Blizzard games. And not just Blizzard but industry as a whole. You're already seeing PR spin up on D4 claiming D4's MTX is nothing like DI's MTX but we won't really know until we see it.

    Overwatch 2 is also going F2P so what kind of MTX would be in there? Even Stormgate (A RTS being developed by Former Blizzard people) is a F2P title, so one has to wonder what kind of MTX will it have as well?

    Note that not all MTX is bad but DI's MTX models are really bad and if DI's MTX design becomes the norm (because it makes so much money) then I think players will revolt from all the nickel and diming that these bigger corporations are doing. Maybe we start going to indie games more because they don't have these predatory practices. Or maybe we all become converts to MS GamePass instead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    You are forgetting one little thing, there are tons of P2W mobile games apart from Blizzard's DI that has been doing the same thing over and over for years. And what are you going to do about it?
    But are those other P2W mobile games as egregious as Diablo Immortal's MTX systems? And furthermore, explain to me how Blizzard copying the MTX practices that are common to the mobile game industry is inline with Blizzard's company value of leading responsibility which is defined as:

    Our products and practices can affect not only our employees and players -- but the industry at large. As one of the world’s leading game companies, we’re committed to making ethical decisions, always keeping our players in mind, and setting a strong example of professionalism and excellence at all times.
    Emphasis added.

    And I think that's the whole point, Blizzard has declined in public opinion and DI is just another nail in Blizzard's coffin. We used to hold Blizzard up in high regard but now it's just another EA/DICE/Bioware/CD Projekt Red company that makes profitable but unpopular moves that alienate its fans.
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  20. #2300
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is still an exaggeration. A player that gears up to higher levels will also do way more damage then a player that does not. Both players can still do damage and so far there has been no indication that the game is tuned around requiring you to have high resonance.
    Right, someone who makes $50,000 vs someone else making $1,000,000,000, still has money. Except relatively they have almost zero money.

    There are plenty of basic math resources on google if you are still struggling with how this stuff works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    The problem is how this may affect future development of Blizzard games. And not just Blizzard but industry as a whole.
    It isn't even a Blizzard game. They licensed the Diablo IP to NetEase. It is a NetEase game, built on the NetEase engine for the Asian market, distributed by Blizzard.
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