[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Infinity Cubed]

If Bran turns out to be a villain (from a story perspective, he is clearly framed as a heroic new ruler heralding a new age of peace for Westeros), and Jon has to ride south to depose him, then what was the point of Jon's ending in the first place?

He was only "framed" as a hero because no one knew the truth about him.

As for the other part of your question, if World War I came to a conclusion, why was there a World War II? Or a Korean War? Or a Vietnam War? Or anything else that happened after Event X at Time Y?

The story Beyond the Wall was never focused on the Night King and the White Walkers, who are literally the reason why winter was coming back and forcing the wildlings to march south out of desperation?

Correct. They were never the main focus of the story. Hence why so little time was placed on them and why they got such little screen time, most of which they were simply a force of nature. It's like saying climate change is the main villain of the real world. And even more ridiculously, if it is combated, then "oopsy daisy, no more history to be had in the real world either."

[Varodoc]

As for the other part of your question, if World War I came to a conclusion, why was there a World War II? Or a Korean War? Or a Vietnam War? Or anything else that happened after Event X at Time Y?

Probably because neither side got completely and utterly exterminated.

Unlike the White Walkers, who, you know, were indeed completely and utterly destroyed and all their magic ended (hence why the wight, reanimated by their magic, immediately crumbled to dust).

Lol, they literally show a plant growing beyond the wall at the end of the season, thus spring will return to the region with the White Walkers' magic gone (they were keeping the endless winter). Which means that the wildlings will no longer have to be so desperate for food and resources, and will no longer live in a frozen wasteland.

He was only "framed" as a hero because no one knew the truth about him.

There's no "truth" about him.

Him being an evil mastermind is just headcanon after some reddit post went viral of Bran warging into Daenerys (fan-made btw). No character in the story believes this and the story never portrays him in a villainous way.

Bran the Broken is meant to be the king who ends the cycle of "Might makes right". Because now Westeros is not ruled by some hereditary dictator on a badass-looking throne, but by a broken boy on a wheel chair. Any villain interpretation or tone seen in the character is 100% headcanon.

Correct. They were never the main focus of the story. Hence why so little time was placed on them and why they got such little screen time, most of which they were simply a force of nature. It's like saying climate change is the main villain of the real world. And even more ridiculously, if it is combated, then "oopsy daisy, no more history to be had in the real world either."

You're an enigma.

You complain about the last season but then you use the classic shill argument "villain who was presented literally in the first scene and built up for 8 years was never the focus".

Do tell, who was the main focus of the Beyond the Wall conflict? The wildlings? Only up to season 5, if you wanted to argue that, because after that point, they were completely driven out by the White Walkers. Oh, and also the Night's Watch was equally busy fighting the White Walkers, as far back as end of season 1. You know, when the Night's Watch mounted an expedition to fight the White Walkers, and were routed in battle at the Fist of the First Men.

But sure, the White Walkers were always just side villains. They were totally not the instigators of every conflict in that region, dating back to their creation.

Regardless, you said it yourself. The villain is going to be Bran. Ergo, the conflict is not going to take place Beyond the Wall.

[Infinity Cubed]

There's no "truth" about him.

Him being an evil mastermind is just headcanon...

I had to stop reading after this point.

We clearly watched completely different shows and read completely different books. Since the show I watched clearly showed him/Bran manipulating events so that they became High King. There's even the classic shot of him sitting on the throne looking smug as the camera pans away.

But sure, the White Walkers were always just side villains. They were totally not the instigators of every conflict in that region, dating back to their creation.

But hey, glad you finally agreed there at the end.

All those baddies in Essos, especially, where 100% the result of the White Walker threat. True story. And when the Sand Snakes killed Cersei's kid, it was because the Night King whispered it into their ears personally. And [insert every other villainous act in the show], too! It was Agatha the White Walkers all along!

[Varodoc]

I had to stop reading after this point.

We clearly watched completely different shows and read completely different books.

Clearly, since you were following a story where the White Walkers weren't the reason for the suffering of everyone beyond the Wall.

Since the show I watched clearly showed

It showed Bran not doing anything and being afk for like half of S8, after the Night King's death. After which, he shows up at the end to claim that he always knew he would be needed as king, then went on to rebuild the capital and reform the kingdom with his new advisors.

Anything else is headcanon. You saying that Bran orchestrated everything is headcanon.

There's even the classic shot of him sitting on the throne looking smug as the camera pans away.

Omg.

He looked smug like the Night King did when he survived Drogon's fire.

Bran = Night King confirmed???

All those baddies in Essos

My bro, I literally, explicitly said that I was considering only the region known as "Beyond the Wall", aka:

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Beyond_the_Wall

Since, you know, that's where Jon Snow's story ended in self-exile and where, presumably, a sequel about Jon Snow would take place.

[Infinity Cubed]

Totes McGotes! ::thumbs up::

[Lady Atia]

I was happy with thinking that Jon Snow was living peacefully with the Free Folk beyond The Wall… free of duty and politics. Why ruin that?

The ending of GoT was the worst thing ever done to any tv show out there. I'm glad they are making this new show, maybe they can have Jon kill Bran for good and claim the throne as he was supposed to be (RIP Dany ....). Everything else I'm not interested in tbh.

[RH92]

As for the other part of your question, if World War I came to a conclusion, why was there a World War II? Or a Korean War? Or a Vietnam War? Or anything else that happened after Event X at Time Y?

I know it's off-topic but...

I wouldn't really say that World War I came to a clear conclusion. The way it ended just gave enough loose ends to cause another war.

Germans saught armistice only after they realised they couldn't win the war anymore since they were fighting alone after both Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire left the war; and the Austria-Hungary pretty much dissolved. Even though they started 1918 by rather successful series of spring offensives, they weren't really achieving any strategic victories, just gaining large portions of useless landmass. They pretty much exhausted their resources and men even more to a point they couldn't defend anymore against the combined French, Brittish and American forces. If they didn't seek armistice, it is likely they would suffer a total defeat.

However the German army wasn't really defeated. It was extremely likely it would happen if the war continued but they didn't suffer a major military defeat. The German general staff realized they couldn't win the war and immediately saught the peace. The entire war was fought pretty much outside of Germany's actual borders, creating the myth the Army was never beaten, only stabbed into the back by political machinations. Then of course it was followed by the unfortunate treaty of Versailles and we know how Nazis twisted all of this to ignite just another conflict.

[Infinity Cubed]

I know it's off-topic, I wouldn't really say that World War I came to a clear conclusion. The way it ended just gave enough loose ends to cause another war.

Nah, it totally ended and there was no other conflicts or problems for the rest of human history. Especially in Europe, where Jon Snow, sorry I mean Any Random European Person of Choice, lived after 1918. All those disparate countries who came together to fight against the forces of evil stayed best buddies afterwards, again with no conflicts of note to be found anywhere at anytime, just like the disparate Wildling tribes north of the Wall who only came together to protect themselves against the White Walkers. They're best buddies now! And there's no other threats anywhere.

At least that's what I keep being told.

[RH92]

Nah, it totally ended and there was no other conflicts or problems for the rest of human history. Especially in Europe, where Jon Snow, sorry I mean Any Random European Person of Choice, lived after 1918. All those disparate countries who came together to fight against the forces of evil stayed best buddies afterwards, again with no conflicts of note to be found anywhere at anytime, just like the disparate Wildling tribes north of the Wall who only came together to protect themselves against the White Walkers. They're best buddies now! And there's no other threats anywhere.

At least that's what I keep being told.

I mean, they lived happily ever after. Didn't they?

[Varodoc]

Nah, it totally ended and there was no other conflicts or problems for the rest of human history. Especially in Europe, where Jon Snow, sorry I mean Any Random European Person of Choice, lived after 1918. All those disparate countries who came together to fight against the forces of evil stayed best buddies afterwards, again with no conflicts of note to be found anywhere at anytime, just like the disparate Wildling tribes north of the Wall who only came together to protect themselves against the White Walkers. They're best buddies now! And there's no other threats anywhere.

At least that's what I keep being told.

I can't even imagine your reaction once you discover how LOTR ends.

[Infinity Cubed]

Oh, you mean when all of the races go to live in harmony in the new Utopia for all eternity and there's no conflict, hatred, or war all the way until modern times? Aragorn certainly didn't go out conquering lands, forcing them to join his Reunited Kingdom. And there certainly weren't any peoples known as, oh I don't know, the Ruffians who were a constant thorn in the side of the Shire. Nothing like that (just off the top of my head) happened after the events of LOTR. Newp.

[Varodoc]

Oh, you mean when all of the races go to live in harmony in the new Utopia for all eternity and there's no conflict, hatred, or war all the way until modern times? Aragorn certainly didn't go out conquering lands, forcing them to join his Reunited Kingdom. And there certainly weren't any peoples known as, oh I don't know, the Ruffians who were a constant thorn in the side of the Shire. Nothing like that (just off the top of my head) happened after the events of LOTR. Newp.

Thanks for quoting me btw, where does the salt come from.

Anyway, yes, I mean that story that pretty much has what one could call a "happy ending", to the point that the creator refused to complete the sequel because he found it "depressing". I am glad that you were finally able to see reason.

Regardless, whatever threat appears in this sequel, it definitely won't be Bran the Broken. He represents a new age, he is the one who broke the wheel, he has led the Six Kingdoms to a new age of peace. Even the savage Ironborn saw reason and agreed to support the new government.

[Infinity Cubed]

Anyway, yes, I mean that story that pretty much has what one could call a "happy ending", to the point that the creator refused to complete the sequel because he found it "depressing".

The fact that you wrote that sentence without having any realization or understanding of what you just wrote is fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

Happy endings yo! No stories to be told, because what happens next is so fucking depressing the author didn't want to write about it. That's how happy it was. Happy.

(Or is this yet another example of how people redefine words on this forum?)

[Varodoc]

The fact that you wrote that sentence without having any realization or understanding of what you just wrote is fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

It's Tolkien himself who said that he found it "depressing" and "sinister", since the sequel would revolve around a civil war in Gondor set many years into the future, which would have ruined the "happy ending" tone of LOTR, where the evil dark lord is defeated and the good guys can finally live in peace and freedom.

So, what exactly did I misunderstand about what I wrote? I know that you are a gigachad, but just this one time, could you kindly elaborate further?

[Infinity Cubed]

It's Tolkien himself who said that he found it "depressing" and "sinister", since the sequel would revolve around a civil war in Gondor set many years into the future, which would have ruined the "happy ending" tone of LOTR, where the evil dark lord is defeated and the good guys can finally live in peace and freedom.

So, what exactly did I misunderstand about what I wrote? I know that you are a gigachad, but just this one time, could you kindly elaborate further?

That part.

You missed that part.

Edit: And since I know you're going to ask, take a moment and think over the fucking conversation you're taking part in. I'll even give you a quick recap: You're claiming there's no story to be told for Jon Snow (Aragorn) as he goes Beyond the Wall (Gondor) to live after the events of Game of Thrones (LotR). Nothing happens, it's all happy and joyous times, apparently, with no conflict or troubles to be found. Except, you know [insert whatever would happen in the series] (a civil war in Gondor).

[Varodoc]

That part.

You missed that part.

As the sequel is cancelled, it is non-canon, you missed that part.

Therefore, Canonically, the story of LOTR ended with the defeat of Sauron and Saruman, the complete and utter triumph of Gondor, the reconquest of many former Gondorian lands, and the complete defeat and pacification of the savage peoples of the East.

That Tolkien found a sequel about civil war too "depressing" to finish proves my point. This is fiction, there needn't be war at all times. A writer can write whatever he wants, if I want to write about war never coming back, I can do that.

And even in real life, you keep going on and on about there being a World War II, but last I checked, Switzerland hasn't had an actual war in two centuries. Just because there is war in the world doesn't mean there is war everywhere in the world.

Which, you know, was my original point, since I was talking solely, and exclusively, about the region beyond the Wall.

[Infinity Cubed]

As the Man in Black said: "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

Though a big part of me is going to regret tainting that wonderful movie by using it in reference to you.

[Varodoc]

As the Man in Black said: "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

Though a big part of me is going to regret tainting that wonderful movie by using it in reference to you.

So is this why you forgot to quote me yet again? To not further taint that wonderful movie?

[Infinity Cubed]

I don't even know what you're blathering on about now.

[eschatological]

I don't think there's any indication of Bran being evil in the show. And in the books we have so far, he's barely even begun his journey to being the 3ER.

I think the best you could say about Bran as king, though, is that he might be detached from reality/humankind in a Dr. Manhattan-esque way, and that might lead to a bunch of bad shit happening under his watch because he's already seen it and deems it "inevitable."

I'm not sure about the scene you're talking about where Bran is sitting on the throne smug. I don't remember that at all. Do you mean at the Council at the Dragon Pit where he was picked to be king? I don't remember any smugness there, but I think you could infer he was expecting it to happen - because he had already seen it.