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  1. #1

    In light of Sepulcher nerfs, think mythic will be easier in Dragonflight?

    I’m curious if we see a philosophy change in DF raids given that Sepulcher has been … well I think you could easily call June 22 Sepulcher a completely different difficulty level than prior. (Which was also a completely different difficulty than what world-first raiders saw, but that’s more typical.)

    I’m also curious if we maybe just see smaller raids.

    IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with Sepulcher. It’s literally just too many good fights to the point that it’s too time-consuming to clear.
    Raid bosses will always be very similar so long as encounter design requires DPS to always be pumping 100%.

  2. #2
    Honestly no matter how good the fights in the raid were if a +15 is as absurdly easier to do than mythic raiding next tier I know me and my small group of friends just aren't going to bother putting in the commitment to raid. Especially if they have a new creation catalyst again since you can get the mythic look and tier set bonuses without bothering with something so over tuned.

  3. #3
    Not really sure why this would signal anything different about mythic raids going forward. Mythic Sepulcher has been out for over 3 months now. Isn't this a pretty normal thing - the raid is in its most difficult unnerfed state for the RWF, then Blizz starts to nerf it over the coming months so more guilds are able to clear.

    That's how it usually goes, no?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Smokeybones55 View Post
    Not really sure why this would signal anything different about mythic raids going forward. Mythic Sepulcher has been out for over 3 months now. Isn't this a pretty normal thing - the raid is in its most difficult unnerfed state for the RWF, then Blizz starts to nerf it over the coming months so more guilds are able to clear.

    That's how it usually goes, no?
    Yeah but i dont think we ever saw 75% nerfs in a single nerf. Maybe over time but in a single, nah
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  5. #5
    I dont get why WoW has always been the game to segregate players massively when it comes to raiding. Mythic raid should be something that requires only moderate time committment to clear. We are way past 3 months into the tier, and Jailer has barely been touched kills-wise.

    Mythic raiding should be like M+. Mythic equal a +15 and throw in some affixes on the raid or some other difficulty with no additional ilevel rewards, similar to M+.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    Yeah but i dont think we ever saw 75% nerfs in a single nerf. Maybe over time but in a single, nah
    There has been a pretty stead stream of nerfs to both heroic and mythic Sepulcher over time, we're just very much in the "fuck it" stage right now, if I were to hazard a guess. I don't think it's an indication of anything. The raid was overtuned in the first place with the assumption of a raid of double legendary and a raid full of tier, and then they kept messing with the legendaries and tier, and I just don't think the put much forethought into the tier as a whole at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    There has been a pretty stead stream of nerfs to both heroic and mythic Sepulcher over time, we're just very much in the "fuck it" stage right now, if I were to hazard a guess. I don't think it's an indication of anything. The raid was overtuned in the first place with the assumption of a raid of double legendary and a raid full of tier, and then they kept messing with the legendaries and tier, and I just don't think the put much forethought into the tier as a whole at all.
    Mythic raiding is designed to keep the people that want to play one single game with all of their free time busy. If there isn't something like Mythic Raiding, we'll just see a bunch of raiders at the top end bitching about having nothing to do.

    As former hardcore raider that does not want to do a single ounce of mythic raiding these days, I think the heroic tier does exactly what it's intended to do for people like me. You shouldn't expect to be able to clear all content in a game like this if you're not dedicated to put in the time, and I cannot be bothered to put in that kind of time anymore.

    That said, the tier is still overtuned.

  7. #7
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    With how big the world first stream were this season ? Not a chance in my Opinion. The "double end bosses" was pretty much a one time thing, but outside of this I doubt we will see mythic coming back at a pre-Legion level.
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  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    There has been a pretty stead stream of nerfs to both heroic and mythic Sepulcher over time, we're just very much in the "fuck it" stage right now, if I were to hazard a guess. I don't think it's an indication of anything. The raid was overtuned in the first place with the assumption of a raid of double legendary and a raid full of tier, and then they kept messing with the legendaries and tier, and I just don't think the put much forethought into the tier as a whole at all.

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    Mythic raiding is designed to keep the people that want to play one single game with all of their free time busy. If there isn't something like Mythic Raiding, we'll just see a bunch of raiders at the top end bitching about having nothing to do.

    As former hardcore raider that does not want to do a single ounce of mythic raiding these days, I think the heroic tier does exactly what it's intended to do for people like me. You shouldn't expect to be able to clear all content in a game like this if you're not dedicated to put in the time, and I cannot be bothered to put in that kind of time anymore.

    That said, the tier is still overtuned.
    I think the biggest problem is that with I think BfA, they started to make all gear but Mythic/Elite look like shit, so it feels like it's not worth to do anything but that content.

    But yeah, I'm all in for making mythic more accessable from the start. The last round of nerfs is just ridiculous, I would rather have a better tuned raid from week one than the current approach, as it just feels like a waste of time to progress on the "harder" bosses now only to see them getting gutted. Alternatively, make raiding+ that scales like m+, has NO new rewards and is just for pushing HoF. That way top 10 guilds can still have their super hard modes while normal mythic guilds can get their cutting edge and mounts with a better progression pace starting with week 1.

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    Oh, and, I think they need to bring Cutting Edge % more close to the amount of people who finish Keystone Master in M+. This would do wonders to the mythic raiding scene regarding recruitment.

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I think the biggest problem is that with I think BfA, they started to make all gear but Mythic/Elite look like shit, so it feels like it's not worth to do anything but that content.
    It's always subjective and very hit-or-miss from class to class, but the mythic tier sets have always looked a substantial step above the non-heroic set. Even as far back as Mists of Pandaria, the highest difficulty tier sets were notably more impressive than the normal sets.

  10. #10
    I’m not super happy that a 15 gives such high loot once a week, but…all the alternatives are worse.

    I think people don’t realize that the Great Vault IS the ICC buff, but a lot more fun.

    But one problem with it is that it reduces the amount that killing mythic bosses actually helps improve players as they’re already sitting on 278s.

    And pretty much everyone says either make mythic easier or do raiding+, which I wouldn’t have an issue with but I think there’s some devils in the details to actually making that happen.

    Still I think we’re gonna see some structural changes in future raids, as the scale of these changes has just been unprecedented.

    Also curious how this all goes down in Season 4.
    Raid bosses will always be very similar so long as encounter design requires DPS to always be pumping 100%.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    It's always subjective and very hit-or-miss from class to class, but the mythic tier sets have always looked a substantial step above the non-heroic set. Even as far back as Mists of Pandaria, the highest difficulty tier sets were notably more impressive than the normal sets.
    That's not true though. MoP still only had different tints, the models were the same. Legion f.e. only had different shoulders and I think helmets, but the lfr-hc sets didn't look like shit because they just turned off particle effects lol. Tomb of Sargeras is another example of tier sets outside of Mythic/Elite looking super good.

    I really wish they would un-nerf the lesser difficulty sets with the fated raids. Really not a huge fan of any of the mythic tint colours, f.e. lfr was the best colour for Sanctum but without the particle effects it just looks .... unfinished.

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    Yeah but i dont think we ever saw 75% nerfs in a single nerf. Maybe over time but in a single, nah
    Well we have to keep in mind we aren't going to see a new raid for another 9-10 months and someone on Twitter pointed out that raiders now aren't much stronger than the top teams were week 3 so the nerfs are to make up for the lack of power jump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    It's always subjective and very hit-or-miss from class to class, but the mythic tier sets have always looked a substantial step above the non-heroic set. Even as far back as Mists of Pandaria, the highest difficulty tier sets were notably more impressive than the normal sets.
    In MoP and prior it was just recolor
    WoD was the first time there was a big difference and most people were OK with it

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    That's not true though. MoP still only had different tints, the models were the same. Legion f.e. only had different shoulders and I think helmets, but the lfr-hc sets didn't look like shit because they just turned off particle effects lol. Tomb of Sargeras is another example of tier sets outside of Mythic/Elite looking super good.

    I really wish they would un-nerf the lesser difficulty sets with the fated raids. Really not a huge fan of any of the mythic tint colours, f.e. lfr was the best colour for Sanctum but without the particle effects it just looks .... unfinished.
    You're right, it wasn't until WoD that the sets because visually distinct, but in my opinion the color schemes of the top end sets were usually a lot better before that.

    But again, there's always exceptions, and it's still very subjective. One of my favorite sets of all time is SPECIFICALLY the LFR color pallet of the Warrior Tier 15 set - I think the normal and heroic color pallets for that set look like ass

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    You're right, it wasn't until WoD that the sets because visually distinct, but in my opinion the color schemes of the top end sets were usually a lot better before that.

    But again, there's always exceptions, and it's still very subjective. One of my favorite sets of all time is SPECIFICALLY the LFR color pallet of the Warrior Tier 15 set - I think the normal and heroic color pallets for that set look like ass
    True, but it's not subjective that they turned off f.e. the particle effects for the "lesser" Sanctum sets, which made all of them just flat out worse (and they originally had them all on the PTR so some dev actually designed them with these in mind).

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  15. #15
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    Sepulcher is not a good reference for a future raids. First of all, raid was overtuned and had two final bosses. Secondly this will be a very short final raid tier, due to season 4. This gives less time to grab CE (hence the huge nerfs).
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  16. #16
    Okay, let me "fix" raiding and it's rewards:

    -remove normal and lfr difficulty
    -heroic difficulty should be 10-30 man, difficulty should be heroic level, another "layer" of rewards is that players should SEE the next boss by themselves, no snoozefest in normal and lfr anymore
    -but, killing heroic bosses should give the vault mythic level loot, just like M+15 does not drop 278, but the vault can

    -what's the incentive then to raid mythic?
    -> mythic bosses should drop a currency, which is used to buy sockets, tier sets, weapons and trinkets directly from a vendor
    -> there should be 3-4 bosses per raid on mythic with secret phases, these bosses should drop OP trinkets or "boosted" items, like Archimonde HFC trinkets, normal armor slots with proc's, something like that
    -> these OP items has a chance to be in the vault ONLY if you have killed the respective boss for the week (these would not be on the said vendor, that vendor just sells a few specific items to be bad luck protection)
    -> and of course tier sets in mythic should be the most badass looking in the game (with gladiator ofc)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Uko View Post
    Honestly no matter how good the fights in the raid were if a +15 is as absurdly easier to do than mythic raiding next tier I know me and my small group of friends just aren't going to bother putting in the commitment to raid. Especially if they have a new creation catalyst again since you can get the mythic look and tier set bonuses without bothering with something so over tuned.
    Define "small group of friends." Because unless there's 19 others you're not doing mythic anyway.

    And one mythic piece a week versus however many you can get actually raiding isn't really an unfair idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Okay, let me "fix" raiding and it's rewards:

    -remove normal and lfr difficulty
    -heroic difficulty should be 10-30 man, difficulty should be heroic level, another "layer" of rewards is that players should SEE the next boss by themselves, no snoozefest in normal and lfr anymore
    So basically like TBC raiding, where Blizzard lost money every tier cause the cost wasn't worth the investment, causing the raid team funding to get cut over and over again until we ended up with Cata with nearly 100% recycled art assets. Pro tip. The more people who do the content the more budget the teams get to make more of it. There's a reason why "Mere thousands say Kil'jaeden, but millions saw Deathwing" was a blue post.
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  18. #18
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Okay, let me "fix" raiding and it's rewards:

    -remove normal and lfr difficulty
    -heroic difficulty should be 10-30 man, difficulty should be heroic level, another "layer" of rewards is that players should SEE the next boss by themselves, no snoozefest in normal and lfr anymore
    -but, killing heroic bosses should give the vault mythic level loot, just like M+15 does not drop 278, but the vault can
    Good old 5Head argument of "remove LFR" from the people who to this day do not realise it is the most popular raiding mode.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  19. #19
    Unless they explicitly describe a change in philosophy, I would trust the dev team about as far as I can throw them. And even then, I'd suspect they were lying.
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  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    Yes.

    If they haven't lost their minds completely, raiding going forward will be significantly easier. As it should be.

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