Sepulcher of the First Ones Raid Tuning Coming June 21

[Goatfish]

to little to late blizz.

but i canot wait for next reset and what else they will think about - because no amount of nerfs will bring people to raid.

i bet in 2 weeks we wil lsee something like

"ok we given up here is 40 % buff for players ICC style or something :P

TBH I'd probably prefer the scaling % buff to players rather than blanket nerfing the bosses. At least with the scaling buff it makes parsing feel better. If you want a hope at beating a top healing parse from 2 months ago you need to run like a 2/2/16 group and have the dps stand in extra stuff.

[Loveliest]

Great, now fix heroic jailer for raid sizes less than 15. its litteraly impossible to do for 11 people

Agree. You have to be better than a Mythic player in a 10m group on hc Jailer. You can't afford even one mistake. Circles affect everyone including the tanks. You get 10 adds and not enough interrupts. 2 mc-ed ppl and too little dpses to do them. Healing requirement for spot healing is insane - you have a few seconds to heal ppl several times throughout the fight. As prot paladin I have almost as much heal as the healers because that's all I do in that fight.

[cparle87]

It's never ever before been like this... We're talking complete removal of mechanics, 90% nerfs and so on...
They have never once done stuff like this since the beginning, no...
The worst nerfs I can remember is probably the scaling 5% buff to icc, reaching 30% blanket nerf.

Name one raid that you can compare these nerfs to... Just one... Go ahead... I'll wait

You're the one making the argument that it's never been like this, therefore the onus is on you to prove it. In a debate you don't expect your opponent to find evidence to support YOUR argument. That's your job.

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No shit. The difference is that this time the raid has gotten more nerfs over its lifespan than any raid come before it.
And having things nerfed while you're progressing on them feels as if the game is giving you the kill for free. Which feels incredibly bad.

Does it make me feel good? More like the opposite.

It's always been like this. Look on the armory for how many guilds are called Prenerf or something like that. As for more nerfs, I remember how heroic SoO got absolutely and utterly neutered in the transition to mythic. People who were only halfway through the raid were able to sweet the rest of it in one night.

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surely even the blind fans can't support multiple 90% nerfs and a blanket 75% to all modes... who am i kidding, of course they will...

SoO was like that.

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I don't understand what you are trying to get at. Why wouldn't fans support nerfs that make the raid more accessible and more likely to complete it? Are you against making content more accessible?

Because they're so hate filled that they latch onto the idea that because it was nerfed there was something inherently wrong with it before. Their thinking is that the more something is tuned, the more it was "wrong" before, giving them "evidence" that Blizzard messed up.

[Alayea]

Heroic Lords is so stupid easy now it might as well be LFR

Perhaps your opinion would be taken more seriously if you did not resort to hyperbole. I have done the Lords of Dread encounter on all difficulties (minus Mythic) and with varying group compositions. LFR is... special. Normal was mostly OK. Heroic though? The curve is much higher relative to what one would normally expect.

I think Simca's post from a few weeks ago in another news thread summed up the overall problem with raiding in Shadowlands best and I strongly recommend reading it. (It's also one that I don't feel I could post an excerpt of and still maintain a cohesive feel.)

[loras]

You know, at this point they should just stop this bullshit and just introduce a flat % power reduction that strengthens over time, like in WotLK.
Call it "Determination", so that people feel judged like LFR raiders if they need too much of it.

But seriously, stop wasting time on bullshit like this.

[Neotart]

Perhaps your opinion would be taken more seriously if you did not resort to hyperbole. I have done the Lords of Dread encounter on all difficulties (minus Mythic) and with varying group compositions. LFR is... special. Normal was mostly OK. Heroic though? The curve is much higher relative to what one would normally expect.

I think Simca's post from a few weeks ago in another news thread summed up the overall problem with raiding in Shadowlands best and I strongly recommend reading it. (It's also one that I don't feel I could post an excerpt of and still maintain a cohesive feel.)

IDK guess my guild is just that good. after the nerf we 1 healed it 2/1/10 lol....a joke fight now

[exochaft]

You know, at this point they should just stop this bullshit and just introduce a flat % power reduction that strengthens over time, like in WotLK.
Call it "Determination", so that people feel judged like LFR raiders if they need too much of it.

But seriously, stop wasting time on bullshit like this.

This is the irony of the situation: Blizz has had the solution to their scaling problems in past content for a long time, they just tend to discard ideas completely while forgetting they existed in the first place and/or not learning from their mistakes. Ultimately, there has to be a massive overhaul to how they approach/design/balance raiding over all to get some actual fixes in... but a ramping buff/debuff aura for the raids that's optional on a schedule has been how such scenarios were done in the past. The set schedule helps give raids an idea when there may be adjustments to help them progress (especially if they hit a gear wall with how WoW treats/distributes loot in terms of progression), as well as making the help optional if you want to do the original difficulty. Heck, you can make an achievement where you clear the raid w/ the aura turned off for some cosmetic item(s) if you want to reward people for doing the hardest difficulty without making it insanely arduous for everyone.

Was reading through some of the threads, and there was some contention about whether this raid has had the most nerfs or not, and SoO was brought up. So I went and looked at the patch notes and hotfixes for the entirety of SoO... yeah, Sepulcher wins in terms of how many nerfs/adjustments to the difficulty are made, especially when you consider the magnitude of the changes (and there will probably be more in the future). When it came to SoO, a lot of the adjustments were to LFR, some changes were addressing bugged mechanics, some were quirks with targeted mechanics with respect to the size variance due to flex, and not much was done to target the raw difficulty outside of LFR beyond trying to counter some tactics/exploits of the time. Forgot to add there were hotfixes that actually made some mechanics hit harder or more dangerous because they weren't doing their intended mechanic/damage, or fixed mechanics that increased the difficulty.

If anything, players should expect better from Blizz when they've been capable of more in the past. There are many solutions and ways Blizz could change how they approach making/balancing raids to offer people a challenge if they seek it without making the content more exclusive than it needs to be.

[mkultra55]

............ Heroic though? The curve is much higher relative to what one would normally expect.

...........

I'd agree if you were talking about the fight prior to the last round of nerfs but now the fight is stupid easy.

[Neotart]

I'd agree if you were talking about the fight prior to the last round of nerfs but now the fight is stupid easy.

Right? so im not the only one.

[Accendor]

Even with these NERFs, I think the Jailer CE will be fairly rare if Season 4 starts in August.

Most likely they will not even remove the CE when s4 starts, because of they do, there is literally no motivation for people to play s4 at all (from a raiding PoV).
Yeah, new concept with upscaled raids might be kinda fun, but if there is no overachieving goal, people will not do it much. And given how slow WoW development has been the last 5 years, DF is still a long while away...

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I don't understand what you are trying to get at. Why wouldn't fans support nerfs that make the raid more accessible and more likely to complete it? Are you against making content more accessible?

Because for people who want it easier there already exist 3 other difficulties.

[aceperson]

SoO was like that.

show me proof that any fight got any nerf even close to 50%, let alone 75%-90%. i played during that period and was my glory days of being a heroic, later mythic, raider so i followed raid content quite closely. i don't remember any nerfs even coming close to that but i've forgotten stuff before so i spent a few hours searching for nerf logs. the most i found on any one nerf wasn't even a blanket statistical nerf which was a 7 minute extension on garrosh's enrage time in LFR, which is hardly a fair comparison to a 90% mythic nerf.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/wowhead...ws-post-239640

the largest statistical nerf i could find was 30% for two of garrosh's corrupted spells.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-5...ws-post-222392

https://www.wowhead.com/siege-of-orgrimmar#news;0+2

if i'm wrong, then please show me proof that i am. but i'm certain i'm not.

[Alayea]

IDK guess my guild is just that good. after the nerf we 1 healed it 2/1/10 lol....a joke fight now

It does sound that way for you and your guild, so good for you. Ours always requires 5 healers for a group size of around 16 to 18 (mostly average-parse) players for it on Heroic.

I'd agree if you were talking about the fight prior to the last round of nerfs but now the fight is stupid easy.

Just don't forget about the raiders below your group's skill level. Our guild has never been what would be called "top tier" but it does have multiple AoTC achievements and with each expansion (of late), it's felt like Blizzard keeps designing encounters ever the more tighter -- and leaving the more average-skilled behind. It's frustrating how many guilds that don't raid Mythic are being punished because of the game dev's arms race with the RWF scene (and/or just don't care enough for proper tuning). /rant

[ArmatisUlv]

Schadenfreude requires no subscription.

Question is, are you the one getting pleasure because you're posting on this forum which causes you misfortune or are you thinking that all of us on this forum are misfortunate to be here/still playing the game.

[Luck4]

Most likely they will not even remove the CE when s4 starts, because of they do, there is literally no motivation for people to play s4 at all (from a raiding PoV).
Yeah, new concept with upscaled raids might be kinda fun, but if there is no overachieving goal, people will not do it much. And given how slow WoW development has been the last 5 years, DF is still a long while away...

Sadly, they already confirmed it's going away.

https://pt.wowhead.com/news/sepulche...-4-wont-326993

Season 4 max item level will be over 300, so it makes sense.

[LordVargK]

It does sound that way for you and your guild, so good for you. Ours always requires 5 healers for a group size of around 16 to 18 (mostly average-parse) players for it on Heroic.




Just don't forget about the raiders below your group's skill level. Our guild has never been what would be called "top tier" but it does have multiple AoTC achievements and with each expansion (of late), it's felt like Blizzard keeps designing encounters ever the more tighter -- and leaving the more average-skilled behind. It's frustrating how many guilds that don't raid Mythic are being punished because of the game dev's arms race with the RWF scene (and/or just don't care enough for proper tuning). /rant

Completely agree. My guild is in the same boat: SL's raids were a big step up in difficulty. You pretty much have to outgear the fights as an average skilled group and even then one mistake often means a wipe.

[Mrbleedinggums]

Imagine caring about how a group kills a mythic boss if they needed some extra help with nerfs.

[Accendor]

Sadly, they already confirmed it's going away.

https://pt.wowhead.com/news/sepulche...-4-wont-326993

Season 4 max item level will be over 300, so it makes sense.

Oh, didn't know that. Ok, fair enough, I have no idea how they intend to hold raiders in s4 then.
I mean I know that getting CE in a year from know it's hard different than getting it e.g. a month ago, but in last expansions there were always a lot of his who finished it literally in the last weeks of an xpac. If this is also gone now...

[Low Hanging Fruit]

While I do agree nerfs kind of are a natural cycle of the game at this point because for some reason they havent found a way to use the natural gearing up cycle to lower the curve as well as they once did (not to say nerfs still didn't happen then but fewer and less large ones).. but.. when you see things like 30% off here, 75% there... my god.. was it even sanely tuned to begin with? Those are mega tuning changes.

[Tiwack]

Maybe they should look at flex scaling if they want more to raid, people quit mythic a long time ago with how anal they designed its gameplay over time.
A natural nerf by buff like ICC that is optional also feels way better than these hamfisted nonoptional nerfs to content but what do I know...

[Xires]

I hope one day blizzard will make a limit of same spec inside the raid,2 max,cant stack op specs and actually force people to play some normal setups,that way they could tune content properly aswell and not make mess like this.

Yeah, and then people who play specs they like will have to switch to a spec they don't like and probably sucks in PvE too. Worst idea...ever.

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Things are always toughest when they first come out and are gradually nerfed over and over until the content is obsolete. They've been doing stuff like this from the beginning. Does it make you happy that your first reaction to any changes is that Blizzard somehow someway did something wrong?

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They tried end of expansion raids before. People panned them.

75% to 90% nerfs on ability's? Not those kind of huge nerfs. Says a lot.