[TV] Disney+ Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Elim Garak]

Why not? Who says bacta even needs replacing? You never demonstrated that it did.

And we are back at infinite use bacta.

You do know there's this thing called bacta patch right? Highly reusable thing. Once the wound is healed you just take it off and store it for future use, or even on another patient. It just doesn't wane. Somehow. Star Wars magick.

[Ghost of Cow]

Literally all of Star Wars has had massive plot holes and issues.

Why was Obi-Wan's brilliant strategy to hide Luke to hand him over to a relative on his dad's home planet and ensuring Luke grew up with his dad's last name? Cause it's not a family name from his adopted family; Owen Lars married Beru Whitesun; the Skywalker name doesn't even have a blood relationship through Owen, who's only relation to the Skywalkers being that his dad married Shmi at some point, making Owen a step-relative to the Skywalkers.
Why did Luke french kiss his sister? Is George Lucas just really into incest?
How does Leia remember Padme, when Padme died in childbirth? (less of a complaint, because this is a prequel retcon rather than a plot hole entirely in the OT itself).
Why doesn't Vader recognize either R2 or C-3P0 at literally any point in the OT (again, prequel bullshit). Hell, why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize R2?
Why can't Vader tell Leia's his kid? They have a confrontation SUPER early. Literally not a hint. Mr. Super Mega Force Man, his daughter RIGHT there yelling at him, no clue.
Lucas not understanding what the fuck a Parsec is, and no I don't care about retcon Kessel run justification attempts.

Welcome to the writing of Star Wars, from literally A New Hope on.

What's weird is that we all know about this stuff and are largely fine with it.

But when people point out new weird things and inconsistencies you talk as if they can't be "real fans".

It's ok to just say, "Yeah, lightsabers aren't even really consistent in-setting." instead of turning it into a referendum on who's a real fan.

[Elim Garak]

There are filters built into the bottom of the tank just like an aquarium has. You're absolutely correct in that logic escapes most people - yourself included.

The ability to filter used up bacta liquid is completely irrelevant to having to replace the bacta in it. You know like you need to provide oxygen source for your fish tank.

[Endus]

And we are back at infinite use bacta.

We never left. As far as I'm aware, there's literally nothing in the canon lore that says one way or another whether bacta gets "used up". And certainly not an entire tank for a single patient and there's definitely no more bacta to be had.

You do know there's this thing called bacta patch right? Highly reusable thing. Once the wound is healed you just take it off and store it for future use, or even on another patient. It just doesn't wane. Somehow. Star Wars magick.

I mean, there's bacta sprays, and bacta bombs, but while those get "used up", they're intended to. And bacta sprays, at least, can be used multiple times on different patients until the bacta runs out, and it "runs out" because it's literally being sprayed from the device onto the wound, so there's a limited actual supply in the canister.

But its use is also widespread and common among military units, which goes a long way to arguing against your claims that it's some unaffordable expense.

[Darththeo]

And we are back at infinite use bacta.

You do know there's this thing called bacta patch right? Highly reusable thing. Once the wound is healed you just take it off and store it for future use, or even on another patient. It just doesn't wane. Somehow. Star Wars magick.

Your argument is:
Bacta must be one use only OR infinite use.

That does not follow logically.

- - - Updated - - -

What's weird is that we all know about this stuff and are largely fine with it.

But when people point out new weird things and inconsistencies you talk as if they can't be "real fans".

It's ok to just say, "Yeah, lightsabers aren't even really consistent in-setting." instead of turning it into a referendum on who's a real fan.

You answered yourself, Ghost.

[Biomega]

But its use is also widespread and common among military units, which goes a long way to arguing against your claims that it's some unaffordable expense.

Not to mention that it being valuable/expensive but ALSO widely used are by no means mutually exclusive.

Look at insulin in the US - any diabetic in the country will tell you it's horrifically overpriced, yet they still all use it. Because they have to.

[Endus]

What's weird is that we all know about this stuff and are largely fine with it.

But when people point out new weird things and inconsistencies you talk as if they can't be "real fans".

It's ok to just say, "Yeah, lightsabers aren't even really consistent in-setting." instead of turning it into a referendum on who's a real fan.

No, it's when people complain about these kinds of things "ruining Star Wars", I question how familiar they actually even are with the material, because these kinds of things have been part and parcel of the IP the entire time. They're not a new problem. If they didn't stop you being a fan in the OT, the new versions shouldn't be bothering you as much as you claim they are.

The ability to filter used up bacta liquid is completely irrelevant to having to replace the bacta in it. You know like you need to provide oxygen source for your fish tank.

And we have no idea what you need to replace. I can put a bubbler in my fish tank. I don't need to refresh all the water literally every day. A bubbler and replace about a third of the tank's water every week or so and it should be fine.

If we're comparing this to a fish tank, you're arguing that a fish tank can't ever support more than one fish because one fish uses all the oxygen in the water.

[Ghost of Cow]

No, it's when people complain about these kinds of things "ruining Star Wars", I question how familiar they actually even are with the material, because these kinds of things have been part and parcel of the IP the entire time. They're not a new problem. If they didn't stop you being a fan in the OT, the new versions shouldn't be bothering you as much as you claim they are.

I don't recall anyone here saying it "ruined" Star Wars (unless Elim did, then...well, it's Elim).

I do remember you saying that if you don't like a particular trope or thing that you "don't like Star Wars", though. That level of gatekeeping is really all I've taken exception to in this conversation.

[Elim Garak]

We never left. As far as I'm aware, there's literally nothing in the canon lore that says one way or another whether bacta gets "used up". And certainly not an entire tank for a single patient and there's definitely no more bacta to be had.



I mean, there's bacta sprays, and bacta bombs, but while those get "used up", they're intended to. And bacta sprays, at least, can be used multiple times on different patients until the bacta runs out, and it "runs out" because it's literally being sprayed from the device onto the wound, so there's a limited actual supply in the canister.

But its use is also widespread and common among military units, which goes a long way to arguing against your claims that it's some unaffordable expense.

Lol, again you are not seeing anything.

Of course the military has ALL the expensive toys. Hence you can't have a bacta tank in your bathroom, unless you are so filthy rich even Palpy has your phone number.

So after you spray the bacta out of bacta spray - what happens to it after the wound is healed up? Do you just wash it off - or do you collect it for future use? Like for the next wound. It's expensive you know. Not to mention that you might be out of spray next time. At least the spray is not infinite. If only bacta could reproduce itself.

[Endus]

Your argument is:
Bacta must be one use only OR infinite use.

That does not follow logically.

The problem is that his arguments about the specific bacta tank in question, in the caves that Reva might use, those arguments ONLY work if;

A> Bacta is one-use-only, one-patient-only, and needs a full replacement between uses, no matter how bad the injuries were, and
B> There's definitely no unused bacta left around, even though we know the underground were engaging in an emergency evacuation and leaving everything behind that someone didn't immediately need; without a patient that needs bacta treatment, bacta wouldn't qualify.

Elim Garak needs both of those to be true, in exactly that way, or his argument falls apart.

Whereas my position is "literally anything but those two specific claims could be true, and anything but the combination of those two leaves an opening for Reva to heal herself in a day or two". I'm not arguing any specifics. Just that there's a wealth of possibilities that allow for it, and no reason to believe that they'd go with the narrowest interpretation just to ignore it because fuck you.

[Biomega]

Do you just wash it off - or do you collect it for future use? Like for the next wound. It's expensive you know.

Just because people (usually) don't do that doesn't mean they COULDN'T.

They're designed to be quick, on-the-run products. Waste is accepted as a trade-off for practicality and convenience.

There's MILLIONS of similar product in the world that are wasteful by design because that makes them more convenient.

[Elim Garak]

You don't prepare a bacta tank for multiple use if you only have one patient for single use. That's literally a waste of bacta, especially if you can't take it with you.

You only do that for a bacta tank used consistently for a single patient (personal Vader bacta tank), so to avoid the refilling every day.

Simple logic.

Which needs to be violated for Reva to survive.

[Darththeo]

You don't prepare a bacta tank for multiple use if you only have one patient for single use. That's literally a waste of bacta, especially if you can't take it with you.

You only do that for a bacta tank used consistently for a single patient (personal Vader bacta tank), so to avoid the refilling every day.

Simple logic.

Which needs to be violated for Reva to survive.

You are assuming the bacta is 100% used or wasted for the tank.
You don't have evidence on that.

[Biomega]

You don't prepare a bacta tank for multiple use if you only have one patient for single use.

That depends on what "prepare a bacta tank" entails. Unlike a pod you climb in and out of (as we see in Boba Book), a dunk-type tank might not even be emptied on the regular. Could be that it just sits there full of bacta all the time, and "preparing" entails turning on the machinery, setting up the oxygen supply, heck maybe even just warming it up so people don't get cold.

[Endus]

I don't recall anyone here saying it "ruined" Star Wars (unless Elim did, then...well, it's Elim).

I do remember you saying that if you don't like a particular trope or thing that you "don't like Star Wars", though. That level of gatekeeping is really all I've taken exception to in this conversation.

I mean, I used the example of hating Jar Jar Binks. Which I do. You can dislike certain things, but others are core to the entire canon. Like, say you didn't like the Force, and thought putting magic into sci-fi was bad and terrible and you hate seeing it in shows like Kenobi. Well, that's Star Wars. Those are the setting tropes it relies on, the central tentpoles of the whole thing. It's fine to not like it because of that; there's other shows like The Expanse which are a lot more grounded and still fantastic. But I'd question if you could even be a Star Wars fan if you thought the Force itself as a concept was breaking your suspension of disbelief.

To put it another way; is the Kenobi show being silly in new ways? Or is most of the silliness the same silliness that's always been a core part of Star Wars? Stuff like people surviving lightsaber stabs isn't "new silly", it's "core silly". It's not something you can really contest in Kenobi, because it's been true through a lot of prior Star Wars content, it's just how the property works.

Lol, again you are not seeing anything.

Of course the military has ALL the expensive toys. Hence you can't have a bacta tank in your bathroom, unless you are so filthy rich even Palpy has your phone number.

Even for clones you consider so disposable you grow them in tanks?

Not making a lot of sense.

So after you spray the bacta out of bacta spray - what happens to it after the wound is healed up? Do you just wash it off - or do you collect it for future use? Like for the next wound. It's expensive you know. Not to mention that you might be out of spray next time. At least the spray is not infinite. If only bacta could reproduce itself.

I dunno!

Also, why can't bacta reproduce itself? It's canonically composed of a fluid, a chemical, a bacteria, and a plant, specifics of each. If the fluid and chemical create a stable environment (let's say), and the bacteria feeds off the plant, and the bacteria are the active ingredient that get "used up", you'd just need to add more space barley every now and then to top it off. That's completely spitballed off the ingredients on Wookiepedia, but that's the point; we don't have answers, and in the absence of answers, you don't get to presume that it's a certain way just because your position requires that things be that certain specific way.

The way it works is we wait and see what happens, and interpretations that are supported by what happens in the show are potentially true, and interpretations that aren't supported are canonically proven to be false. Not that the show got it wrong; that's now how things work, at all.

[Elim Garak]

Even for clones you consider so disposable you grow them in tanks?

Not making a lot of sense.

Weird wording.

But healing a clone is cheaper than growing and training a new one. Duh.

I dunno!

Also, why can't bacta reproduce itself?

Because it is canonically PRODUCED in limited amount because of limited ingredients (even involving slavery) and it's a business.

- - - Updated - - -

That depends on what "prepare a bacta tank" entails. Unlike a pod you climb in and out of (as we see in Boba Book), a dunk-type tank might not even be emptied on the regular. Could be that it just sits there full of bacta all the time, and "preparing" entails turning on the machinery, setting up the oxygen supply, heck maybe even just warming it up so people don't get cold.

The refugees were ready to flee. So no, they didn't have a bacta tank ready, if they had there's no preparation required just "Get him to the bacta tank". it's a normal procedure, no need to instruct the preparation you are assuming they need.

[Endus]

Weird wording.

Not particularly. Clone troopers were canonically treated as disposable, by both the Republic and the Empire it became. I wasn't saying they should be seen as disposable, just noting that, canonically, that's how they were seen by those in power.

But healing a clone is cheaper than growing and training a new one. Duh.

So is bacta cheap enough for regular constant use, or is it so expensive nobody can afford it?

Pick a lane.

Because it canonically PRODUCED in limited amount because of limited ingredients (even involving slavery) and it's a business.

Yeah, that's not an explanation.

See also the GMO crops that some farmers figured out how to re-seed and then got sued because the product was literally reproducing itself, despite the original producers only producing a limited supply because they were running a business. That's a real example, not just a hypothetical of what could be true in Star Wars.

You're still making wild presumptions to build a complicated house of cards to shore up your pet theory. And when Reva pops herself into the tank this week, that whole house of cards will get disproven as incorrect, canonically and conclusively, because your pet theories aren't more canonical than the actual show.

[Biomega]

The refugees were ready to flee. So no, they didn't have a bacta tank ready, if they had there's no preparation required just "Get him to the bacta tank". it's a normal procedure, no need to instruct the preparation you are assuming they need.

That's pure conjecture.

For all we know, it might convenient for them to leave the tank full because it can double as storage that way (rather than having to pump the bacta back and forth all the time).

It might have been too large and unwieldy to ship out with the evacuation, so they just... left it sitting there. Things you gotta do.

[Elim Garak]

Not particularly. Clone troopers were canonically treated as disposable, by both the Republic and the Empire it became. I wasn't saying they should be seen as disposable, just noting that, canonically, that's how they were seen by those in power.

I was referring to your liberal use of "you" when addressing me with that.

So is bacta cheap enough for regular constant use, or is it so expensive nobody can afford it?

Pick a lane.

False dichotomy to the power of complete disregard of relativity.

My lane is simple:
1. It's expensive
2. Military has all the expensive toys
3. It's cheaper than growing a clone, like Twitter is cheaper than Facebook. Expensive as fuck. But cheaper. Paradoxical I know. But that's Star Wars for ya.

Yeah, that's not an explanation.

That is the canonical explanation.
Also you don't enslave people if you can just get bacta ingredient from them and then let it grow.

- - - Updated - - -

That's pure conjecture.

For all we know, it might convenient for them to leave the tank full because it can double as storage that way (rather than having to pump the bacta back and forth all the time).

It might have been too large and unwieldy to ship out with the evacuation, so they just... left it sitting there. Things you gotta do.

That's like completely fucked up process at the UNIVERSAL level. That's not how you deal with expensive substances.

[Endus]

False dichotomy to the power of complete disregard of relativity.

My lane is simple:
1. It's expensive
2. Military has all the expensive toys
3. It's cheaper than growing a clone, like Twitter is cheaper than Facebook. Expensive as fuck. But cheaper. Paradoxical I know. But that's Star Wars for ya.

And yet, still no actual basis for this. If you don't know, you don't know. You don't get to make shit up and then claim the show is "getting it wrong" when it disproves your fanfic.

That is the canonical explanation.
Also you don't enslave people if you can just get bacta ingredient from them and then let it grow.

It's Star Wars. It's disturbingly comfortable with casual slavery. And always has been.

Also, the point was not that there's no canon that bacta is produced in limited amounts and is relatively expensive. The point was that you have no basis for claiming the underground can't have any, particularly as we've literally seen otherwise already. That claim's not just unreasonable, it's determinably proven false.

That's like completely fucked up process at the UNIVERSAL level. That's not how you deal with expensive substances.

You thinking it's unreasonable or not is completely irrelevant. What matters is if that's how people in Star Wars do things.