Genuine Question: Why do mobile games need to be pay to win?

[loras]

I'm not specifically talking about a specific dumpster fire that recently launched. Every time someone complains about a big popular game being pay to win, or even having a giant cash shop of cosmetics, there's always a large group of people who says "Well that's just how it is, mobile games need to make money!"

But see, there are mobile games that are one time purchases that make tons of money.

So WHY is pay to win, or cash shop NECESSARY/EXPECTED of a mobile game?

The most immediate obvious answer is because that's how the east monetized their games in the early proliferation of smart phones. But I'm not asking a surface level "why". I'm asking a deep why.

Why can't the standard for mobile games be one time purchase games? Why does everyone make the excuse that if it's a mobile game, that justifies cash grabs?

And for the life of me, I can't think of a suitable response that isn't countered by something else.

"Well they need to make money!"
One time sale games make money.

"Because it's part of this country's culture!"
OK? I don't see why the rest of us need to be alright with what is effectively gambling but with no chance of getting your money back.

"If they don't monetize like this they'll lose money!"
Then stop making shitty menu based games with endless time sinks solely designed to suck money out of players, and make games people actually enjoy playing? If a game is good, it won't lose money.

Give me a GOOD justification for why we should simply be fine with such things. A game being a mobile game is not a good justification. Because as we know, predatory monetization has been wriggling its way into PC gaming for the last 10 years. So once most PC games have tons of microtransactions, what's going to be the excuse then? When "It's a mobile game bro," is no longer an excuse you can use .

I don't mind some few games having this. Back in the mid 2010's, these games were rare but the whales had their playgrounds and they played in them. My problem is how this sort of monetization model is proliferating into every console and every genre.

To be frank, a game being a mobile game is not proper justification, and yet so many act like it is.


Ultimately, I do realize that a mobile cash grab is a lot "safer" for the investors. Investors know these kinds of game will almost always make their money back because fools and their money are easily parted. Investors have seen the past of gaming, where some really bad games lose a lot of money when received poorly. Just look at D:I, it's one of the worst games in history and it made back all of the money spent on development on day 1. I suppose my real question here is, why are game consumers okay with this?

And for those of you who love capitalism/free market quackery, the entire concept is that if you make a better product than your competitors, you succeed, and if you make a shitty product, you fail. That's often the core tenet of the church of capitalism. So why are the capitalism bros okay with a system that turns that on its head?

In before some mouth breather goes "BET YOU'RE JUST POOR"
I'm not, and welcome to ignore

Just point your own country / state (if they have the power/authority) to the argumentations used in i.e. Belgium or the Netherlands, and push like hell.
This type of shit won't stop 'till we plug the holes and break the (very metaphorical) backs of those that push it.

Honestly it is such a drain on the genuine artistry that can be present in games that it's not even funny anymore.
All the better to see such things flop, suffer backlashes or even genuine defeats like in aforementioned countries.

Look at the argumentation (not just the surfacr mind you!), get some lawyer-ish help if you need to, adapt it to your local situation and you'll have a strong starting point already; argumentation accepted in the courts of the aforementioned countries tends to be of a rather superior quality, more than enough to shrug off any internet-borne emotion or manipulation against it anyway.

[Fencers]

Simply because it makes a lot of money.

Platforms such as forums and Reddit attract a niche user and this fosters a totally warped view of the world and practices as a result on these platforms. Many customers do not mind paying for power and cosmetics in games. The term "pay to win" is not even commonly known or defined outside of niche user groups such as those forum attracts.

Take a look at princess dress-up games on mobile and their Facebook and social media group users. This is a different breed of customer than is likely to frequent MMO-Champion's subforum on general video games. But you will also see how eager and willing these customers are to spend money per transaction.

Someone might not have $20 to spare for a game. But they just might have $2.99 every now and then to have some fun/feel good about themselves. The barrier to entry is a huge, huge factor in mobile and F2P game attractiveness to customers.

I play a mobile game called Girls Frontline. The folks that play this game routinely request sales of costumes, new guns, animations, and so on. They suggest to the developer what they should even cost.

Many customers do not mind paying for power or prestige. That is actually a motivating factor of play in many cases.

[Cayde69]

You can say this is conspiratorial but w/e.

I think it’s because a lot of people have their wallets tied to their phones already, so buying things ‘in game’ is a very easy process. Also tie this to the fact that kids LOVE to play mobile games this makes it very easy for them to spend their parents money.

Some big name companies found this out and designed the very first popular mobile games around the fact that you have to spend money in order to progress (clash of clans etc).

Basically, it preys on children much easier than other avenues.

[chiddie]

It's usually divided by a few catagories

65% F2P
20% Minnows (will throw like $1-$10 maybe)
10% Dolphins (willing to toss like $20 a week or so...kinda a subscription player)
5% Whales (we already know what these are make up majority of profits)

Just a curiosity from a non English dude: why those 5% are called whales and not sharks?

In Italy those people are called sharks, for example.

[Ealyssa]

But see, there are mobile games that are one time purchases that make tons of money.

No there is not… Mobile gaming is a very mature market nowadays and it’s well researched that people playing on their thousand dollar phone just hate paying even 5$ for a game/app. That’s why the freemium (free access with paid content) model exploded on mobile.

You can’t make money (and by "making money" companies want to maximize profit) with an upfront cost, that’s just the reality of the market.
F2P and P2W is just what is making the most money, simple as that. And sure as a gamer you would rather not have that but as soon as you become a developer the sound of a yacht at the marina doesn’t sound as bad to you.

In the end we have shit because people are dumb and love to eat shit. If high quality full priced games (most recent phones are more powerful than a nintendo switch) were selling the most we would see them on apple’s and google’s marketplace.

[Shakzor]

Just a curiosity from a non English dude: why those 5% are called whales and not sharks?

In Italy those people are called sharks, for example.

Probably an analogy to how a few whales, eat tons of fish/krill/whatever at once, compared to sharks, dolphins and other fish. So instead of eating lots of fish, they spend lots of money on bs mtx

[Fencers]

In the end we have shit because people are dumb and love to eat shit. If high quality full priced games (most recent phones are more powerful than a nintendo switch) were selling the most we would see them on apple’s and google’s marketplace.

This is insular, elitist BS. People are not dumb for enjoying themselves with mobile games than other forms of entertainment. These are hobbies and things people do with their free time. You are not entitled to any entertainment produced by others for any price other than what the owner of that media or entertainment decides it ought to cost.

If someone wants to spend on Legos (which are crazy expensive & worthless to me), Sideshow collectibles, or a mobile game- there is no great or inherent nobility to any of those things than the other.

[unbound]

I'm not specifically talking about a specific dumpster fire that recently launched. Every time someone complains about a big popular game being pay to win, or even having a giant cash shop of cosmetics, there's always a large group of people who says "Well that's just how it is, mobile games need to make money!"

But see, there are mobile games that are one time purchases that make tons of money.

So WHY is pay to win, or cash shop NECESSARY/EXPECTED of a mobile game?

Simple answer: It isn't necessary.

The reason for the P2W is because there are enough people that spend the money. If people stopped giving them all that money for P2W, then they would stop.

This started with minor transactions such as cosmetics that didn't affect the game. Since people accepted that part (cosmetics used to be something earned via game play), the developers have been pushing into more areas. Simple gold sales and items to enhance your advantage. Little to no pushback on that led to more sinister elements such as loot boxes which leverage psychological approaches to get more money out of players (e.g. maybe my luck will be better if I get a few more loot boxes, sunk cost fallacy, etc).

And since this has been growing over the past decade, too many people are just "Oh well, this is how it is" rather than pushing back. Without that pushback, developers are going even further into the psychological tricks to get money out of people. Diablo Immortal didn't need to be nearly as monetized as it is, and they've put every dirty trick in the book into that game. I fully expect things to continue to get worse until people learn to stop giving them money.

[Delever]

Maybe people are like me, I would never pay for a mobile game. But I may try a mobile game if it is free to play. If you get sucked in, you may spend money.

Also, because it works, people happily spend lots of money on these games. That's the main problem.

Yeah here is the thing though. I m on the same boat as you and would gladly spend a couple euros if I get hooked in a f2p game but I will NEVER spend it on p2w shit because I know this pitfall never stops and it also feels cheap.
Over the years I ve spent almost 1k euros in league of legends because I was hooked on the game and bought a lot of skins for my favorite champions. I dont play the game anymore, at least not actively and yet I do not regret a single euro spent because I enjoyed the game and skins were just an extra way of supporting the game without a direct power equivalent. There are whales in LoL also that spend thousands upon thousands on skins and have basically bought out the entire shop. The game is making money off of both whales and normal people by promoting a healthier monetization plan that doesnt drive out 95% of its community in the long run.

A f2p game that monetizes with heavy p2w bullshit is something I and many other people will never spend money on. Those games rely exclusively on the whale market. The difference between those games and f2p games with healthier monetization plans is that they are entirely missing out on the potential audience that would spend money and rely only on the heavy spenders. Usually those games do not have a super long life span as the whales also stop buying if there is no reason for them to buy. Whales buy to win/show off etc. If there is no one to beat or no one to show off to because the 95% is gone then they will go as well.

Companies of course have the stats to support which model is most profitable but in the past we saw MMO after MMO crumble and die due to such practices because people left in droves after the initial hype and then you would see the game cheaply cloned by the same company (think Aeria games and their 2831982371289321 clones of anime games that were basically the same game with even the same fucking UI) which would last for about 1 year before shutdown relying entirely on short term gain to profit off of the insanely low production cost of the game.

The same principle applies to the mobile game market. Very low production cost for most games which in turn rely on short term whale profits before the game shuts down after 1-2 years and on to the next one. In the case of DI which seems like a higher production value game I initially struggled to believe how this would work out for them but it seems to have. I highly doubt the game will have a bright future in the West though in terms of lifespan.

PS: Whale heavy games like Genshin Impact are on a different category and while GI also promotes predatory practices like FOMO tactics and gacha gambling it is 99% a solo player experience and one that is not hindered in the slightest (for now) by the power gains you get as a whale. The power gains in genshin are more like: Would I rather play the game and easily 9 star the abyss after some months of commitment or would I rather smash my face on the keyboard and 9star the abyss with little to no thought behind it? This is a case where the community takes less offence in the p2w model. If pvp was involved or content that you could never hope to clear as a non whale it would be a different story.

[BeepBoo]

Just a curiosity from a non English dude: why those 5% are called whales and not sharks?

In Italy those people are called sharks, for example.

Shark sounds too cool for the types of people who spend that much on mediocre digital goods. It 's like someone spending thousands at a mcdonalds. I'm not going to dignify them by giving them a cool name of a predator when they're the ones getting preyed upon.

In this case, whale is from the company's point of view like they're catching the fish. Bigger fish = bigger win. Whales are the largest fish you can catch. They harpoon those mother fuckers and harvest ALL that juicy blubber.

[cuafpr]

1 its profitable, 2 its cultural. would people really pay 50.00 for a mobile game? probably not, most people look at them as quick fixes on the go not something to pay AAA console/PC game pricing.

[Ghost of Cow]

Simply because it makes a lot of money.

Platforms such as forums and Reddit attract a niche user and this fosters a totally warped view of the world and practices as a result on these platforms. Many customers do not mind paying for power and cosmetics in games. The term "pay to win" is not even commonly known or defined outside of niche user groups such as those forum attracts.

Take a look at princess dress-up games on mobile and their Facebook and social media group users. This is a different breed of customer than is likely to frequent MMO-Champion's subforum on general video games. But you will also see how eager and willing these customers are to spend money per transaction.

Someone might not have $20 to spare for a game. But they just might have $2.99 every now and then to have some fun/feel good about themselves. The barrier to entry is a huge, huge factor in mobile and F2P game attractiveness to customers.

I play a mobile game called Girls Frontline. The folks that play this game routinely request sales of costumes, new guns, animations, and so on. They suggest to the developer what they should even cost.

Many customers do not mind paying for power or prestige. That is actually a motivating factor of play in many cases.

This is insular, elitist BS. People are not dumb for enjoying themselves with mobile games than other forms of entertainment. These are hobbies and things people do with their free time. You are not entitled to any entertainment produced by others for any price other than what the owner of that media or entertainment decides it ought to cost.

If someone wants to spend on Legos (which are crazy expensive & worthless to me), Sideshow collectibles, or a mobile game- there is no great or inherent nobility to any of those things than the other.

All of this, really.

I don't think the crowd on sites like MMO-C realize just HOW insular and particular they really are. The D:I announcement alone exposed a lot of this, where you had all these self-styled "gamers" sounding like their grandfathers, grumbling about "those newfangled phones and their fancy mobile games and gosh darn it who needs those!"

There's a whole big world out there that doesn't think this way at all, and doesn't care about all the handwringing over who's "winning" and why and who paid money and blah blah in their mobile games. Millions of people that just want to load up a quick game on their phone while on a bus or in a waiting room and they're not at all interested in your puritanical arguments about the sanctity of gaming and blah blah.

(Also: If I hear the term "psychological tricks" applied to mobile games as if the concept of crafting marketing and sales to encourage people to buy things is somehow unique to mobile games I'm going to scream.)

[Elim Garak]

Devs: Hey, wanna play a free mobile game?
Gamers: NOOOOOO! I WANT TO PAY FOR IT
Devs: How about you play it for free and if you like it you pay as much as you want?
Gamers: NOOOOOOO! I WANT TO PAY UPFRONT!
Devs: How about this starter pack?
Gamers: UPFRONT!!!!!!!!!

[Khaza-R]

All of this, really.

I don't think the crowd on sites like MMO-C realize just HOW insular and particular they really are. The D:I announcement alone exposed a lot of this, where you had all these self-styled "gamers" sounding like their grandfathers, grumbling about "those newfangled phones and their fancy mobile games and gosh darn it who needs those!"

There's a whole big world out there that doesn't think this way at all, and doesn't care about all the handwringing over who's "winning" and why and who paid money and blah blah in their mobile games. Millions of people that just want to load up a quick game on their phone while on a bus or in a waiting room and they're not at all interested in your puritanical arguments about the sanctity of gaming and blah blah.

(Also: If I hear the term "psychological tricks" applied to mobile games as if the concept of crafting marketing and sales to encourage people to buy things is somehow unique to mobile games I'm going to scream.)

Tbf, the demographics of a "gamer" has evolved to be incredibly more diverse than it was some decades ago. I don't think there's any value trying to describe what gamers like or dislike other than in incredibly broad statements. But to your point, PC gamers more specifically IMO represent an older and more obstinent mindset within the community. Really the dislike of mobile games and their business practices is to be expected.

[zealo]

Mobile users are allergic to paying for software up-front compared to the state of things on PC and consoles.

That directly impacts the game design outlook for monetization.

[Tommi]

https://www.gridly.com/blog/games-as...me%20purchases.

[deenman]

p2w isnt the issue,they are free games,they need to make money somehow,even POE that has one of the best f2p models still sells stash spaces,something you cant get as f2p,and lets face it,that stash space,its 100% p2w because of how important mats and items are to the economy

the problem with games like diablo immoral is the predatory and scumy gambling and tricks they use to reel people in

why do they sell 20 different currencies?and why cant you just type in the number you wanna buy?they always sell either to little or to few for what you want to buy

josh strife hayes has a few videos perfectly explaining how these companies are completly unethical in their scumy methods

ofc you will have the defenders go ''bUt YoU dOnT hAvE 2 pAy'',might as well tell drinking addicts to just...stop drinking bruh,its that easy

they will eventualy crack down on them and shut it down,its mind blowing how kids are specificaly targeted with adds for these games,get em young,like any good cult

[ParanoiD84]

Hate mobile gaming in general but its easy money i guess in ptw games all you need is a couple whales and your good.

[deenman]

Hate mobile gaming in general but its easy money i guess in ptw games all you need is a couple whales and your good.

why do you hate mobile gaming?the industry has come an insane long way in a very short time,its a perfectly good gaming platform these days,they just need to stop getting kids and bald middle aged men addicted to gambling

[Linkedblade]

Just a curiosity from a non English dude: why those 5% are called whales and not sharks?

In Italy those people are called sharks, for example.

Sharks are usually the ones that prey on others. Whales are just people with large full pockets.

- - - Updated - - -

Hate mobile gaming in general but its easy money i guess in ptw games all you need is a couple whales and your good.

It may not be your thing. I purchased a handful of the final fantasy games, and rockstar games like GTA and Max Payne.

For a game like CoD: mobile, i spent so much time playing, I bought the battle pass, because it was i entertained enough and felt like they earned it.

I much prefer the battle pass/freemium over loot boxes/card packs. And i definitely prefer freemium over games being inundated with video ads.