Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Nymrohd]

The thing is, the Cycle of Strife is a major part of the game and it is all about PvP. And in PvP the P2W element is significant.

[Kyanion]

It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.

Sure just going to be a massive gap in player power as time goes on. Why? Because those free players can't kill as fast, won't live as long and will run into difficulty getting groups for dungeons as the content gets harder. I wouldn't care if the game was soloable but considering dungeons are forced group content it is a different thing entirely.

For example, if you are sub 1200 rating and you go into a hell 2 dungeon, what happens? You get 1 shot by any boss mechanic. This increases the chance your group fails a dungeon, so why would players invite that in hell 2? As more knowledge is gained by the playerbase you'll see this type of thing happening more and more. But hey they can complete the content! Except they might not be able to get in the door if other players say no. THAT is a disadvantage a P2W player would not encounter.

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The thing is, the Cycle of Strife is a major part of the game and it is all about PvP. And in PvP the P2W element is significant.

yeah but free players can do 99% of the content! Except you know, not.

[KrayZ33]

I have never said there isn't a difference between a free and pay player. So I'm not sure you are arguing against. It will take years to level up gems. It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.

what's a "mechanical disadvantage" in your opinion?

since grinding is limited for F2P as well, while a paying customer can always run more crests, how is that not a disadvantage by design or "mechanics"?

Not to mention that you can literally not advance after a certain point unless you pay money.
Since you are ignoring like 99,9% of the game just to write that nonsense, lets just get straight to the point where you have to pay money to awaken your gear.

[rhorle]

Sure just going to be a massive gap in player power as time goes on. Why? Because those free players can't kill as fast, won't live as long and will run into difficulty getting groups for dungeons as the content gets harder. I wouldn't care if the game was soloable but considering dungeons are forced group content it is a different thing entirely.

Well they run into difficulty? Won't they be playing with players their level just as they would if you couldn't buy gear? Because people would always progress faster then others and that gap in power would always exist between players. Strange that it is a fundamental problem now just because people can pay to skip it but it isn't a fundamental problem in almost every game that has power progression.

I also think you are exaggerating the amount of people that check combat rating, gems, gear, and what not for grouping in DI. Do some do it? Certainly. But vast majority are likely just hitting Yes and letting the random group decide. Again what you describe though exists even with out pay to win. It also doesn't indicate that a free player has the game mechanics deliberatly tuned to punish them over a paying person. People of two equal power levels, one free and one paid, will have the same speed/difficulty in Hell 2. Right?

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what's a "mechanical disadvantage" in your opinion?

Maybe you should explain what you are looking to counter/attack first. Clearly a paid and free person at the same level of power will have the same speed and ease in clearing content, right? A free player is not punished with different mechanics simply because they didn't pay. They don't have a harder time clearing content. They gap in power is the same that exists between a person that no-lifes the game and a person that plays on their train/bus to/from work. Paying just allows you skip the grind but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression.

[KrayZ33]

Maybe you should explain what you are looking to counter/attack first. Clearly a paid and free person at the same level of power will have the same speed and ease in clearing content, right? A free player is not punished with different mechanics simply because they didn't pay. They don't have a harder time clearing content. They gap in power is the same that exists between a person that no-lifes the game and a person that plays on their train/bus to/from work. Paying just allows you skip the grind but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression.

It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
How can you say it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression when paying literally does change everything about it, lol.
You are just arguing about pointless words.

The game's F2P experience is designed around you not being able to do things and about you not getting to enjoy some things.
It's really that simple.
It's really pointless to argue about being able to technically run "mythic" in WoW with leveling gear/WQ gear and say "look, you *can* run mythic, just wait until the next expansion". That's technically what you are doing right now.

[Kyanion]

Well they run into difficulty? Won't they be playing with players their level just as they would if you couldn't buy gear? Because people would always progress faster then others and that gap in power would always exist between players. Strange that it is a fundamental problem now just because people can pay to skip it but it isn't a fundamental problem in almost every game that has power progression.

I also think you are exaggerating the amount of people that check combat rating, gems, gear, and what not for grouping in DI. Do some do it? Certainly. But vast majority are likely just hitting Yes and letting the random group decide. Again what you describe though exists even with out pay to win. It also doesn't indicate that a free player has the game mechanics deliberatly tuned to punish them over a paying person. People of two equal power levels, one free and one paid, will have the same speed/difficulty in Hell 2. Right?

Again I ask have you seen/done Hell 2 content yet? Because they do NOT have the same speed/difficulty in Hell2. Lo fucking L. A pay 2 win player doesn't even break stride when blowing up a group of mobs when a free to play player will be fighting a group of mobs for 15+ seconds or more while also having to deal with damage from those enemies. The pay 2 win player has already murdered the group, looted and ran off while the other player is winding up some abilities to do a fraction of the mob's health.

If a free to play player with a low gear rating goes into a dungeon (and trust me, it warns a player when they are doing content below their gear rating) they will get 1 shot by mechanics while the pay 2 win player can stand in said mechanics and keep on going. That is a big difference in mechanics if the free to play player has to dodge everything and the P2W just stands there dishing out damage. But hey what do I know, only witnessed it first hand many times in Hell2 as I was grinding out gear. If you are below the threshold of 1200-1220 or whatever number it has for the content the mobs do more damage to you and you do less to them. Know what bypasses this? Gems baby, the more you paid the more rating you get from those gems.

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It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.

Sounds like they haven't even played the game and are trying to tell us that know better how things work in various content levels. It is fucking laughable.

[rhorle]

It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.

Instead of admitting that you have no argument you deflect to a scenario that isn't a what if but entirely possible. Because a person can buy a few crests and get a few legendary gems. So they only gain a small amount of power. A free person can even eclipse a person that pays depending on how much they play and how much the other person paid for.

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Again I ask have you seen/done Hell 2 content yet? Because they do NOT have the same speed/difficulty in Hell2.

Why do you expect people that don't have equal level of power to have equal level of speed/ease? Lmao. Do you also whine because a fresh level 60 in WoW can't clear Mythic Sepulcher?

[KrayZ33]

Instead of admitting that you have no argument you deflect to a scenario that isn't a what if but entirely possible. Because a person can buy a few crests and get a few legendary gems. So they only gain a small amount of power. A free person can even eclipse a person that pays depending on how much they play and how much the other person paid for.

Instead of admitting that you are just bullshitting you keep on arguing about pointless stuff no one cares about.
You are wasting everyones time.

It's surreal.

You are facing grind limits, equipment limits, power limits that you don't face when you just spend more money.
Is this true or is it not?
If you still believe that this doesn't change how paying players progress differently compared to F2P players, then I don't know what to tell you.
It's really pointless to discuss this, as mentioned earlier.

[rhorle]

Instead of admitting that you are just bullshitting you keep on arguing about pointless stuff no one cares about.

If no one cares why did you enter the discussion and continue it? All you are doing is insulting and deflecting because you don't actually have anything to counter what I've said. The only one wasting time here is yourself who doesn't want to discuss anything but insists on replying. Strange, right?

You don't face equipment limits. You don't face power limits. The only grind limit you face is how many Legendary crests you can get. You can still obtain legendary gems with out them but it takes longer. Of course paying players progress faster. They buy power. That has never been something I said and it just shows how much you are wasting everyone's time by arguing something that was never stated. Lmao.

[Ghost of Cow]

You are facing grind limits, equipment limits, power limits that you don't face when you just spend more money.
Is this true or is it not?
If you still believe that this doesn't change how paying players progress differently compared to F2P players, then I don't know what to tell you.
It's really pointless to discuss this, as mentioned earlier.

They already said that there's a difference. Of course there is. The fuck did you expect, NO difference?

[KrayZ33]

You don't face equipment limits. You don't face power limits. The only grind limit you face is how many Legendary crests you can get. You can still obtain legendary gems with out them but it takes longer. Of course paying players progress faster. They buy power. That has never been something I said and it just shows how much you are wasting everyone's time by arguing something that was never stated. Lmao.

*yawn*...
That already means the progression is different between F2P and P2W players.
And "it just takes longer" is complete bullshit, because as mentioned earlier, you are basically saying that eventually you can run mythic raids with WQ gear in WoW if you just wait long enough. Absolutely pointless to even point this out. Completelely outside the scope and point of the game.
Obviously completely beside the point that other poster made as well.

They already said that there's a difference. Of course there is. The fuck did you expect, NO difference?

Not sure what you want from me.

[Ghost of Cow]

Not sure what you want from me.

Well you seem to be laboring under this impression that people are saying there's NO difference, or that there was somehow advertised to be no difference or something?

Of course there's a difference. No one said there wasn't. So it's not clear what you're arguing against here.

[rhorle]

And "it just takes longer" is complete bullshit, because as mentioned earlier, you are basically saying that eventually you can run mythic raids with WQ gear in WoW if you just wait long enough.

So are you ignoring how gear progression works or do you actually not know of item levels in WoW? There is no wall of progression in DI that you need to pay to get over except for the item required for gem resonance. That is the only barrier to a free player in progressing their power level in DI. The speed of progression is different which is never something I denied.

A pay player skips the natural progression path of the game. A free player does not. When at equal power their ease and ability to clear things is equal. It isn't made harder for a free player to encourage them to pay. It just simply is a progressive step up in difficulty.

[KainneAbsolute]

Yesterday was the Inmortal event. A friend's guild allied with 2 other guilds to take down the biggest whale of the server. They killed the whale, and didn't win the event.

It took 9 players to take down a player because he has a gem that impedes any killing.

[Kyanion]

Why do you expect people that don't have equal level of power to have equal level of speed/ease? Lmao. Do you also whine because a fresh level 60 in WoW can't clear Mythic Sepulcher?

Jesus tap dancing christ. Just admit you have no fucking idea what Hell2 is like and that will make it a lot easier. Again, if you WANT GEAR for Hell2 difficulty you gotta do hell2 content to have it drop. Unless you paid to raise your resonance through gems you got a LOT of grinding to do with difficult enemies with plenty of health. If someone paid to increase gems they don't have to do this.

[rhorle]

Jesus tap dancing christ. Just admit you have no fucking idea what Hell2 is like and that will make it a lot easier. Again, if you WANT GEAR for Hell2 difficulty you gotta do hell2 content to have it drop. Unless you paid to raise your resonance through gems you got a LOT of grinding to do with difficult enemies with plenty of health. If someone paid to increase gems they don't have to do this.

How is what happens with Hell 2 different if pay to win didn't exist? Have you never heard of, or played, a game with progressive difficulty before? You always had to grind for gear to keep gaining power. If someone paid to increase gems they still have to grind for gear and non-gem power, right? Also of course if a player is a higher "power-level" they will have an easier time in lower power-level content.

Does a paid and free player of the same power have the same diffiuclty in Hell 2? That is the thing you keep skipping past. If power level are equal they will have the same difficulty in clearing the content. If power levels aren't equal they won't have the same difficulty.

[Kyanion]

Does a paid and free player of the same power have the same diffiuclty in Hell 2? That is the thing you keep skipping past. If power level are equal they will have the same difficulty in clearing the content. If power levels aren't equal they won't have the same difficulty.

They do not have the same difficulty. One person can 1 shot all the enemies and not die to their melee/ranged attacks unless they stand there for 20-30 seconds. The other player gets 1-2 shot and the mobs take 20 seconds to die. The game says Hell 2 for both players, but is that the same difficulty for both players? If you answer yes, just stop replying to me and stop wasting my time.

The power levels aren't close to equal. Know why? THERE IS A SYSTEM IN GAME that tells you what your Combat Rating is and one that tells you what your resonance is. But I doubt you even know what those systems mean and I'm not going to bother explaining how the game works when you obviously don't play it.

[rhorle]

They do not have the same difficulty.

Do you have proof that Hell 2 is mechanically different between a paid and and a free player? Again what you keep describing is naturally what happens when players of two different power levels interact with content. A paid player buying a bunch of power will progress them beyond Hell 2 so of course they will have it easier in Hell 2 then a player that hasn't yet progressed their power beyond that.

Of course Hell 2 is stated to be for both players because it is based on paragon level and not actual player power. No one has said the power levels are close to equal. I'm not sure why you are still under that false impression. What I asked was if a free and paid player had equal power levels would Hell 2 still be hard for the free player and easy for the paid player? It is entirely possible for this situation to exist since a paid player doesn't have to max out their legendary gems in order to be a paid player. They can only buy a few crests which only gives them a small bump in power compared to a free player.

[Kyanion]

Do you have proof that Hell 2 is mechanically different between a paid and and a free player? Again what you keep describing is naturally what happens when players of two different power levels interact with content. A paid player buying a bunch of power will progress them beyond Hell 2 so of course they will have it easier in Hell 2 then a player that hasn't yet progressed their power beyond that.

Of course Hell 2 is stated to be for both players because it is based on paragon level and not actual player power. No one has said the power levels are close to equal. I'm not sure why you are still under that false impression. What I asked was if a free and paid player had equal power levels would Hell 2 still be hard for the free player and easy for the paid player? It is entirely possible for this situation to exist since a paid player doesn't have to max out their legendary gems in order to be a paid player. They can only buy a few crests which only gives them a small bump in power compared to a free player.

You don't even know what the hell you are talking about if you're mentioning crests instead of gems. Gems and Resonance from upgrading said gems ARE the power levels that come from slapping down more money. I'm tired of trying to explain this to someone who obviously does not play so I'll be done replying to you here.

[rhorle]

You don't even know what the hell you are talking about if you're mentioning crests instead of gems. Gems and Resonance from upgrading said gems ARE the power levels that come from slapping down more money. I'm tired of trying to explain this to someone who obviously does not play so I'll be done replying to you here.

I'm mentioning crests because that is what you buy that enables an increased drop rate for gems. It is a strange thing to get upset about for someone that keeps questioning knowledge of the game. A person that only buys two or three eternal crests is a paid player that won't see a huge increase in their Gems and Resonance versus a person that plays more but is a free player. It is possible for the free player to have equal power or "combat rating". It is even possible the free player could surpass them.

You keep acting like the difference between paid and free is always massive when it doesn't have to be.