Next Sepuchler nerf wave:

[Artemol]

The following has been leaked:

All bosses in Sepulcher can now be 1 shot by any attack that deals 1k damage or more.

Reason:
Not enough people are raiding anymore, we want to change that.

[kamuimac]

The following has been leaked:

All bosses in Sepulcher can now be 1 shot by any attack that deals 1k damage or more.

Reason:
Not enough people are raiding anymore, we want to change that.

its called desperation - even most hardcore of hardcore raiders quit last tier and this because of how ridiculously overtuned the raid is

you cannot even find troll on mmochampion anymore with their usual "Git gud " comments. because raid is to hard for them too .

this is the direct results of blizzard aiming their raidsonly for top 1 % over last 10 years.

and yet we do not see any news about Ion or anyone from dev team being fired for achieving this. in any normal company those people woudl be fired years ago . i honestly have no clue how the is no clean up / firing ongoing in blizzard atm .

[ceall]

The raid and to be frank, all shadowlands raids have been tuned poorly and that's a fact.
Just checked M jailer kills. We're just a little over 200 atm.
The raid is now 4 months old. Usually around this mark, We're at the 1000 range. Heck even check the dropp-off between 4/11 and 6/11 guilds, going from 4 to 6 (either hallondrus or lihuvim downed), it's halved!
And then compare a 7/11 guild to a 8/11 guild. Around 1700 with 7/11, then sudden drop off to just a little over 1000. Once you've overcome anduin, you'll be standing in front of the jailer pretty fast. But only 20% of those that killed anduin by now also have killed the jailer.

And let's face it, your standard CE guild does not have 30+ players in their roster capable of playing 5+ classes (15+ specs) each. You'd be grateful for every player that can play like 3 specs spread over 2 classes. And in my 12+ years of "casual hardcore" raiding (CE around the 1000-1500 mark), I've also seen many many people (me in my earlier times included) that can only play a single spec.
The average mythic raiding guild just cannot go with the 100% most optimal setup for every single boss.

I've seen it in my lihuvim progress: not having access to double ring of piece + necro dk + dk tank (or necro dk tank) hard stops your progress past the 2nd synthesize for a chunky amount of your weekly raid time (nowadays usually 6h/week) until you figure out a way without them.

[garicasha]

I've got a thread going in Dragonflight forum about this:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...n-Dragonflight

It's curious, I think we will see some changes. I dunno if it'll be smaller raids, easier fights, or what.

What I wish they would do, but don't expect, is that the bosses launch super hard but literally come with a roadmap of like:

Mythic Nozdormu will have abilities 1, 2, 3, 4 at release.
4 weeks in to launch ability 1 will have its damage reduced by 25%
6 weeks in to launch ability 2 will be removed.
8 weeks in to launch ability 3 and ability 4 will never overlap.

So then the week a person got AotC / CE would be more important.


It's really too bad, though. People aren't complaining that Anduin, Rygelon, or Jailer are bad fights, not the way we saw people howl about Stone Legion Generals or Kel'Thuzad.

If it had been split in to two tiers like originally designed these were great boss fights. Just slap together 4-5 easy bosses, put Lords of Dread, Rygelon, and Jailer behind them and call it a tier. Then Halondrus becomes a great second-to-last boss and Anduin the final one, good to go.

[ohwell]

its called desperation - even most hardcore of hardcore raiders quit last tier and this because of how ridiculously overtuned the raid is

you cannot even find troll on mmochampion anymore with their usual "Git gud " comments. because raid is to hard for them too .

this is the direct results of blizzard aiming their raidsonly for top 1 % over last 10 years.

and yet we do not see any news about Ion or anyone from dev team being fired for achieving this. in any normal company those people woudl be fired years ago . i honestly have no clue how the is no clean up / firing ongoing in blizzard atm .

Top 1% bring in the money. The raid is piss easy on normal before most nerfs. But hey keep projecting.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Was a bad take to design a tier around 5 at the very tippy top guilds getting punished.

[klaps_05]

when was the last time a tier boss, let alone expansion final boss have less than 300 kills? practically never? is it just harder or theres just no guilds left around?

[ohwell]

I've got a thread going in Dragonflight forum about this:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...n-Dragonflight

It's curious, I think we will see some changes. I dunno if it'll be smaller raids, easier fights, or what.

What I wish they would do, but don't expect, is that the bosses launch super hard but literally come with a roadmap of like:

Mythic Nozdormu will have abilities 1, 2, 3, 4 at release.
4 weeks in to launch ability 1 will have its damage reduced by 25%
6 weeks in to launch ability 2 will be removed.
8 weeks in to launch ability 3 and ability 4 will never overlap.

So then the week a person got AotC / CE would be more important.


It's really too bad, though. People aren't complaining that Anduin, Rygelon, or Jailer are bad fights, not the way we saw people howl about Stone Legion Generals or Kel'Thuzad.

If it had been split in to two tiers like originally designed these were great boss fights. Just slap together 4-5 easy bosses, put Lords of Dread, Rygelon, and Jailer behind them and call it a tier. Then Halondrus becomes a great second-to-last boss and Anduin the final one, good to go.

They're going to need to do scheduled nerfs since they claim there won't be the systems people cry about(well at least that's what they seemed to indicate). The renown and soulbinds were basically nerfs to content without needing to nerf it.

I mean let's be 100% real here: This whole thread is based upon ignorance and a faulty premise that neglects that there were fewer over time buffs to our players than the other 2 tiers thus they needed to manually nerf this raid.

Nathria was cleared very early by the top groups without a full soulbind unlocked(about 5 renown every 2 weeks due to campaign and first kill was end of Dec so was around 20-30 renown not even halfway there and not the final trait which was strong).

Mythic Sylvanas was cleared within 21 days which would mean you may or may not have had the final trait on your soulbind and then you still had the conduit upgrades to go through.

The only real power upgrade not affiliated with gear directly was double legendaries and the Jailer world first was the week those came out.

Every other tier there was a gradual increase in player power NOT affiliated with gear that extended for weeks after the first kill on mythic. This tier there was absolutely nothing except one could argue the bad luck protection on tier, but that was also present in the previous tier when it came to the gems(1 guaranteed weekly from Sylvanas) and some classes got far more power from the gems.

So, yes, because of the systems people like to cry about not really having as much of an impact this tier, the raid needs nerfs every so often.

- - - Updated - - -

Was a bad take to design a tier around 5 at the very tippy top guilds getting punished.

Why? They're the ones bringing in the money. The 1% are the ones fueling this game at this point because the world has drastically changed since Cataclysm when people were all "the 99% paying subs are paying for them." Streaming agreements and advertisement during their videos brings in more money than the handful of players that would ever quit over mythic being hard. Much less people streaming wow(generally not the people who can't clear mythic) generate interest in the game(free advertisement+).

[Gorsameth]

Why? They're the ones bringing in the money. The 1% are the ones fueling this game at this point because the world has drastically changed since Cataclysm when people were all "the 99% paying subs are paying for them." Streaming agreements and advertisement during their videos brings in more money than the handful of players that would ever quit over mythic being hard. Much less people streaming wow(generally not the people who can't clear mythic) generate interest in the game(free advertisement+).

I am confused. The revenue of top raider/guild streams doesn't go to Blizzard, they get nothing from ads and no 'streaming agreements' to pay them. The race to world first doesn't directly earn Blizzard a single cent (only indirectly through getting people interested in playing the game)

[ohwell]

I am confused. The revenue of top raider/guild streams doesn't go to Blizzard, they get nothing from ads and no 'streaming agreements' to pay them. The race to world first doesn't directly earn Blizzard a single cent (only indirectly through getting people interested in playing the game)

Blizzard has their own streams. They had a Twitch deal(non exclusive iirc) a few years back for like millions. They have their own channel on YouTube. Their events are streamed via themselves and the individual players competing don't stream them as far as I know(not 100% on that).

So while the race to world first doesn't directly, the events involving the players that are also in the top 1%(pvp and m+) do in fact directly earn them money. The race to world first is free advertisement that generates more interest than a random ad would.

So yeah when you misread the entire post I can see how you'd be confused.

[Gorsameth]

Blizzard has their own streams. They had a Twitch deal(non exclusive iirc) a few years back for like millions. They have their own channel on YouTube. Their events are streamed via themselves and the individual players competing don't stream them as far as I know(not 100% on that).

So while the race to world first doesn't directly, the events involving the players that are also in the top 1%(pvp and m+) do in fact directly earn them money. The race to world first is free advertisement that generates more interest than a random ad would.

So yeah when you misread the entire post I can see how you'd be confused.

The Arena and Mythic dungeon championships have nothing to do with turning a raid for the best 5 guilds in the world, which is what this topic is about.

Those competitions will exist, and in the case of the AWC have existed far longer then the broadcasted RWF.

[garicasha]

there were fewer over time buffs to our players than the other 2 tiers thus they needed to manually nerf this raid.

That's some of it but not all of it. The number of bosses with incredibly punishing one mistake = wipe bosses is way too high, Halondrus, Anduin, Rygelon, Jailer.

More player power from items or conduits or whatever would've helped a bit on things like Anduin adds and Rygelon dps/hps checks. But Anduin's Blasphemy and getting the quasars exactly right on Rygelon really required 8+ minutes of perfect play and conduits weren't gonna help that.

And I think there's one thing this forum is missing with its perennial bile-tinted glasses. Watching the race to world first was AMAZINGLY FUN this tier. Holy crap Halondrus was amazing, Anduin was fun, Rygelon was super fun, and I even got lucky and watched the first Mythic Jailer kill live. And they were great fights that were stupid hard yet tuned and working ok enough that guilds were able to get 'em.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Doubtful its desperation, just bad tuning.

[loras]

Well, they could've also chopped out i.e. Halondrus (nice concept, but honestly a lorewise-shitty implementation), Lihuvim and Pantheon and be left with a better boss roster; these all really add nothing positive flavorwise, even if some are nice fights.

It somehow felt like a very "choppy" raid, somehow not properly interconnected between the fights and areas (like most of SL honestly). Feels like it would have been way more logical to not fight the mentioned fights, but to either avoid them or befriend them.
In hindsight i find it strange that they did not make them and i.e. Xy'mox entirely optional raid bosses; no need to kill them to reach the jailer.

[MrLachyG]

Well, they could've also chopped out i.e. Halondrus (nice concept, but honestly a lorewise-shitty implementation), Lihuvim and Pantheon and be left with a better boss roster; these all really add nothing positive flavorwise, even if some are nice fights.

It somehow felt like a very "choppy" raid, somehow not properly interconnected between the fights and areas (like most of SL honestly). Feels like it would have been way more logical to not fight the mentioned fights, but to either avoid them or befriend them.
In hindsight i find it strange that they did not make them and i.e. Xy'mox entirely optional raid bosses; no need to kill them to reach the jailer.

I think the Pantheon is more important than people think. the fact they can just make new versions of the leaders of the Shadowlands is interesting. also Xy'mox will also probably get a mention if there is ever an ethereal expansion. I also like having flavourful bosses; not every boss has to have lore/story significance. Raids with optional bosses are rare, I can only think of three off the top of my head: Highmaul, Karazhan and Ulduar.

[jeezusisacasual]

Sure the best players can clear it with specific comps but thats the problem with WoW in that i refuse to play anything else then what i pick as a main for that patch and why should i? I can get close to the same ilvl gear from Mythic plus weekly vault and assuming they keep a creation catalyst i can always get tier without stepping foot into a raid. So now i just run some dungeons get some loot at random ass times and with 2 hours a week i can clear 4 of the easier dungeons vs not even finish a raid night.

If they want to fix raiding make the fights not require perfect play for 8+ mins ( i hate fights that last longer then 6 mins honestly and this tier had a bunch of them ) unless they want Dark Souls the mmo. Make me not waste materials after a wipe, my food buff should just last the 1 hour duration. Not be hard locked into specific classes for specific fights unless those abilities are spread around, cant do X boss because Y class isnt here tonight is terrible. Make the mythic scene more approachable and more welcoming otherwise it will end up as the snake that ate itself. Also make the abilities be telegraphed without the use of add-ons, i refuse to use addons outside of bartender and skada and i can clear 20s as a brewmaster / Prot warrior.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Why? They're the ones bringing in the money. The 1% are the ones fueling this game at this point because the world has drastically changed since Cataclysm when people were all "the 99% paying subs are paying for them." Streaming agreements and advertisement during their videos brings in more money than the handful of players that would ever quit over mythic being hard. Much less people streaming wow(generally not the people who can't clear mythic) generate interest in the game(free advertisement+).

I don't see the high end guilds buying all the mounts and pets off the store. THOSE people are the ones bringing in the money. The high end guilds bring in money.. for.. themselves..

[loras]

I think the Pantheon is more important than people think. the fact they can just make new versions of the leaders of the Shadowlands is interesting. also Xy'mox will also probably get a mention if there is ever an ethereal expansion. I also like having flavourful bosses; not every boss has to have lore/story significance. Raids with optional bosses are rare, I can only think of three off the top of my head: Highmaul, Karazhan and Ulduar.

Xy'mox was not a lorewise poor boss, i just think it would have been fitting to make him optional, as per his own eclectic behaviour.
Also AQ temple had the slime boss, the naga raid in TBC had at least the lurker down below and i am fairly sure i am forgetting others. Zul'gurub? Anyhow, i like optional bosses; them being optional is in itself flavorful; "Do we hasten to the absolute threat, or do we nip this also signuficant threat in the bud right now?". Makes for a more compelling story than "The Jailer is going to erase reality! But first let us fight this worm, this thief and this garbage-collector.". We might still choose to kill any or all of them first, but in giving us an actual choice they avoid us asking the question "But why?', which tends to expose the unseemly cracks in their often less than perfect storytelling.

And personally i think the "The gods are machines" trope borders on the utterly nauseating, so perhaps i am biased against Lihuvim and the Pantheon. Seems like progressivist spillover (note: Progressivist =/= Progressive; the former refers to a religious faith in science, technology and advancement of machines in particular, it's common to sci-fi fans and lesser engineers).

[Schwert]

The Arena and Mythic dungeon championships have nothing to do with turning a raid for the best 5 guilds in the world, which is what this topic is about.

Those competitions will exist, and in the case of the AWC have existed far longer then the broadcasted RWF.

AWC and MDI also have pitiful viewershop, especially in comparison to other games.

Your everyday player seems to be getting tired of the extreme competitive difficulty in an RPG. Every announcement of these events is usually met with people complaining about them too, ontop of the low viewership.

The money's coming from microtransations.
This guy has a point; the 1% is fueling token sales for people who just don't want to bother.

[Advo]

They could stand to have more 'natural' nerfs over time ala when ICC came out.

The WF guilds have the first crack at the fight. Four weeks in to the tier, player health, damage done, healing done increases by 5%, and an additional 5% every two weeks after that to 40% maximum. With the ability to toggle it off at any point if you want.