The night warrior arc had no purpose, right?

[cparle87]

Snip

If the only reason for making this thread was to have people answer your question only for you to reply "No, those answers don't count" you could've saved us the trouble by not making the thread.

[VladlTutushkin]

If the only reason for making this thread was to have people answer your question only for you to reply "No, those answers don't count" you could've saved us the trouble by not making the thread.

Because if you phrase it as "any story has a point because its a story being told" then of course it "works". But if a "point" is shit, exists only to uphold a status quo and so abhorrently written and paced people still talk about it... Yeah. Story has to be at least "above D-" to "have a point" otherwise its just shit. Same way as idiot's scribbles in the sand are not mathematics, no matter how many numbers he uses.

[Woggmer]

They're def turning in D grade work when WoW has generally lived in that B wheelhouse, I speculate it may be connected with changing story leads and dumping their lines, as well as apocalyptic burnout, where this is basically the 3rd universe endagering expac

I absolutely believe that. Keep in mind that they've been setting up Sylvanas's story since Legion and that same narrative lead was responsible for the Night Warrior stuff. Maeiv mentioned that because of the Night Warrior stuff would lead to a terrible price to pay.. it was probably meant that Tyrande was suppose to die if it was the original plan... but when Danuser took over, he had no idea how to end it so instead he chose to find a work around.

As for the whole apocalyptic burnout... Most expansions, even Vanilla, has had some sort of apocalyptic level threat involved in some way. The only ones that didn't was MoP... but otherwise most was either just summoning Archimonde/Kil'jaeden (in TBC/Legion), The Lich King trying to unleash a zombie apocalypse, Deathwing's arrival to destroy the world in Cata, N'zoth's involvement in BFA, Ragneros trying to destroy the World Tree; Nordrassil and having the fire destroy Orgrimmar, and C'thun awakening along with Ahn'Qiraj's opening...

MoP was more focused on the threat of conquest and diplomacy, The Sha weren't some time-bomb that was about to go off...the Pandaren had to live with it because the source of corruption was locked away deep inside the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. Even when he was corrupted, Garrosh didn't want to destroy Azeroth, he wanted to conquer it. This was pretty much a wake-up call making people realize, "Shit, we've nearly had the planet destroyed in multiple different instances."

[Aucald]

With respect.

All of this is wrong.

I never denied she had a warrior aspect, but it is not her paramount trait. In the War of the Ancients trilogy, Elune was stated to be so opposed to conflict that she sang a "sone of peace" for an entire day to bring an end to one such conflict. In the same story, she also shielded Tyrande from the hostile intent of both Vashj and Kil'jaeden, as opposed to an offensive rebuke of either party. Similarly, she also rebuked Goldrinn/Lo'gosh for his hostility and ferocity. Her primary associations are tranquility, harmony, peace, and healing. The Sentinels were a necessary part of post-Sundering life for the Kaldorei, as a large portion of their people had entered an enforced hibernation, and the rest were left with the responsibility of the Long Vigil as part of their own penance for the harm the Night Elves had collectively done to Azeroth as a result of the War of the Ancients and the Sundering.

Beyond all that, however, Tyrande's history as effective general of the Sentinels isn't one of sterling acclaim or endless victories. The War of the Satyr that followed closely after the Sundering exacted a further toll on the Kaldorei, and was won only via the sacrifice of many brave Night Elves such as Mel'Thandris and Arvell. Xalan, the leader of the Satyr tribes at that time, nearly succeeded in burning down Ashenvale as a whole. During the Third War her recklessness saw Illidan released from his prison, and she bears responsibility for his later rampage across Outland and the subjugation and deaths of both Maiev's wardens and the Ashtongue Broken. Ditto for her actions in recent times as well.

This isn't to say Tyrande isn't a powerful warrior in her own right, but she's not meant to be a combat powerhouse in the same way more martially-oriented characters like Jaina, Varian, or Greymane are. She's a priestess of a deity whose primary traits as tranquility and peace, and though she often finds herself in war, she's thematically and philosophically opposed to it, as well. She's not a pacificist, but she's not a front-line threat. The Night Warrior aspect changed that at least temporarily, giving her far more offensive ability in exchange for a slow and painful death, but it proved temporary in the end. Not to mention that the entire Night Warrior aspect falls under the heading of "dangerous and forbidden ritual," which goes to show that the Night Warrior is not a primary or sought-after aspect of Elune's worship.

[cparle87]

Because if you phrase it as "any story has a point because its a story being told" then of course it "works". But if a "point" is shit, exists only to uphold a status quo and so abhorrently written and paced people still talk about it... Yeah. Story has to be at least "above D-" to "have a point" otherwise its just shit. Same way as idiot's scribbles in the sand are not mathematics, no matter how many numbers he uses.

Every story has a point, whether or not you think the story is good. Denying that is simply denying reality. Glad you and Accendor agree on that.

[VladlTutushkin]

Every story has a point, whether or not you think the story is good. Denying that is simply denying reality. Glad you and Accendor agree on that.

So you just going to ride a formality while the actual question was more about "why the fuck they wrote this shit when they had better alternatives"?

[Ferlion]

I never denied she had a warrior aspect, but it is not her paramount trait. In the War of the Ancients trilogy, Elune was stated to be so opposed to conflict that she sang a "sone of peace" for an entire day to bring an end to one such conflict. In the same story, she also shielded Tyrande from the hostile intent of both Vashj and Kil'jaeden, as opposed to an offensive rebuke of either party. Similarly, she also rebuked Goldrinn/Lo'gosh for his hostility and ferocity. Her primary associations are tranquility, harmony, peace, and healing. The Sentinels were a necessary part of post-Sundering life for the Kaldorei, as a large portion of their people had entered an enforced hibernation, and the rest were left with the responsibility of the Long Vigil as part of their own penance for the harm the Night Elves had collectively done to Azeroth as a result of the War of the Ancients and the Sundering.

Beyond all that, however, Tyrande's history as effective general of the Sentinels isn't one of sterling acclaim or endless victories. The War of the Satyr that followed closely after the Sundering exacted a further toll on the Kaldorei, and was won only via the sacrifice of many brave Night Elves such as Mel'Thandris and Arvell. Xalan, the leader of the Satyr tribes at that time, nearly succeeded in burning down Ashenvale as a whole. During the Third War her recklessness saw Illidan released from his prison, and she bears responsibility for his later rampage across Outland and the subjugation and deaths of both Maiev's wardens and the Ashtongue Broken. Ditto for her actions in recent times as well.

This isn't to say Tyrande isn't a powerful warrior in her own right, but she's not meant to be a combat powerhouse in the same way more martially-oriented characters like Jaina, Varian, or Greymane are. She's a priestess of a deity whose primary traits as tranquility and peace, and though she often finds herself in war, she's thematically and philosophically opposed to it, as well. She's not a pacificist, but she's not a front-line threat. The Night Warrior aspect changed that at least temporarily, giving her far more offensive ability in exchange for a slow and painful death, but it proved temporary in the end. Not to mention that the entire Night Warrior aspect falls under the heading of "dangerous and forbidden ritual," which goes to show that the Night Warrior is not a primary or sought-after aspect of Elune's worship.

That's actually a misquote, I believe.

Demon Soul chapter 8 is about the Moonguard and Illidan/Malfurion/Rhonin pushing back the legion with spellwork and was one of the turning points of the war. The Priestess of Elune show up....as warriors and while singing, their prayers empowered the Night Elven warriors and fighters as if it were night time, as Night Elves are a Nocturnal, and their powers (at the time) were actually stronger at night.

Wowpedia lists the song of peace, but the only place I recall that being from is the RPG book Shadow and Light.

But even the Warcraft Encylopedia is half about Elune being a warrior.

Strongly associated with healing, peace, and tolerance, Elune has been revered by the night elves and other races since ancient times. However, the Mother Moon is not a goddess who advocates peace at all costs. Indeed, one of Elune's aspects since ancient times has been the Night Warrior, who is said to take the valiant dead from the battlefield and set them riding across the evening sky as stars.

Long before the Great Sundering, an order of priests had dedicated itself to Elune's service. The highest echelon of this order is known as the Sisters of Elune, and as the name implies, membership in this echelon is open only to women. Their battle chants can call down Elune's wrath to smite an enemy, and their prayers can heal even the gravely wounded.

Then you have the in game quests.

Elune taking blood sacrifices from her enemies in exchange for magic weapons.

According to ancient legend, this ancient brazier was placed here for the performing of sacrifices.

From what little you remember of the stories, a blessing is bestowed upon the being who places the flesh of Elune's enemies on the brazier's burning embers.

Looking around, you determine that the satyrs who now possess this region would likely qualify.

You also have Elune's firestorm quests.

You also have Elune letting someone rip his own heart out before stepping in to help.

As for the War of the Satyr, by Blizzards own mouth, the Night Elven victory was so thorough that the Satyr are still unable to recover.

In fact, by Blizzards own admission, it's happened several times. And Tyrande was the general. She, as Elune's High Priestess and General.... is all in on Total war.

The night elves have never completely wiped out a species, though they have engaged in brutal and efficient campaigns of total war that have shattered their enemies' civilizations, such as the War of the Satyr, in which they completely decimated any semblance of central leadership for the satyrs, forcing them to live in small sects to this day.

Heck, for the final thing, which is ultimately just the original thing.. Look at WC3.

Tyrande had not a single healing ability. It was all combat or combat support oriented, ending with Starfall.

My point is, Elune is very much a peaceful goddess.... But almost every depiction of her in WoW is followed with a very heavy "but"..

"Elune is a goddess of peace....buuuuut she also takes blood sacrifices of her enemies and blesses those who give them to her with gifts"

Even Worgen, who are more aggressive, more dangerous, actually contagious, etc... are buffed by the Staff of Elune tied on to the Fang of Goldrinn. Her influence and power plays a significant role in going from Pack Form to Worgen.

[VladlTutushkin]

I never denied she had a warrior aspect, but it is not her paramount trait. In the War of the Ancients trilogy, Elune was stated to be so opposed to conflict that she sang a "sone of peace" for an entire day to bring an end to one such conflict. In the same story, she also shielded Tyrande from the hostile intent of both Vashj and Kil'jaeden, as opposed to an offensive rebuke of either party. Similarly, she also rebuked Goldrinn/Lo'gosh for his hostility and ferocity. Her primary associations are tranquility, harmony, peace, and healing. The Sentinels were a necessary part of post-Sundering life for the Kaldorei, as a large portion of their people had entered an enforced hibernation, and the rest were left with the responsibility of the Long Vigil as part of their own penance for the harm the Night Elves had collectively done to Azeroth as a result of the War of the Ancients and the Sundering.

Beyond all that, however, Tyrande's history as effective general of the Sentinels isn't one of sterling acclaim or endless victories. The War of the Satyr that followed closely after the Sundering exacted a further toll on the Kaldorei, and was won only via the sacrifice of many brave Night Elves such as Mel'Thandris and Arvell. Xalan, the leader of the Satyr tribes at that time, nearly succeeded in burning down Ashenvale as a whole. During the Third War her recklessness saw Illidan released from his prison, and she bears responsibility for his later rampage across Outland and the subjugation and deaths of both Maiev's wardens and the Ashtongue Broken. Ditto for her actions in recent times as well.

This isn't to say Tyrande isn't a powerful warrior in her own right, but she's not meant to be a combat powerhouse in the same way more martially-oriented characters like Jaina, Varian, or Greymane are. She's a priestess of a deity whose primary traits as tranquility and peace, and though she often finds herself in war, she's thematically and philosophically opposed to it, as well. She's not a pacificist, but she's not a front-line threat. The Night Warrior aspect changed that at least temporarily, giving her far more offensive ability in exchange for a slow and painful death, but it proved temporary in the end. Not to mention that the entire Night Warrior aspect falls under the heading of "dangerous and forbidden ritual," which goes to show that the Night Warrior is not a primary or sought-after aspect of Elune's worship.

We had a Night Warrior manhandle an Old God and then die and make his gay lover sad, so i think its not just "some" offensive capability but a TON of offensive capability. Again, they could have just avoided bringing that up not to muddy the waters but they deliberately chose to give us two examples of NW power feats and it makes BfA even more damning, and forgiving Sylvanas (because it WAS forgiveness, even "soft" sentence would have her at least killed before sending her to collect souls in the Maw) even more stupid.

[bloodmoth13]

That was tyrande doing that. The night warrior fluff was hype that had zero affect on the outcome of any of it.
The hype itself was also hollow and set us all up for disappointment.
If the night warrior stuff never existed nothing would have changed. Nothing.

It's as pointless as a human transforming into a werewolf only to start shooting magic from a book (looking at you worgen mages)

It's a case of Chekhov's gun, in this case the gun fired a blank

[VladlTutushkin]

That was tyrande doing that. The night warrior fluff was hype that had zero affect on the outcome of any of it.
The hype itself was also hollow and set us all up for disappointment.
If the night warrior stuff never existed nothing would have changed. Nothing.

It's as pointless as a human transforming into a werewolf only to start shooting magic from a book (looking at you worgen mages)

It's a case of Chekhov's gun, in this case the gun fired a blank

You not seeing the main reason behind it. They had to "throw a bone" to the Alliance community, but they also needed to "concentrate" all the hate players had for Sylvanas in one character and then make this character forgive her, as they thought that would also make fans forgive her.

Of course it didnt worked because current Blizz are talentless, pathetic hacks who also spend more time drunkenly leering at women than working, so of course it went entirely NOT as they planned.

[bloodmoth13]

We had a Night Warrior manhandle an Old God and then die and make his gay lover sad, so i think its not just "some" offensive capability but a TON of offensive capability. Again, they could have just avoided bringing that up not to muddy the waters but they deliberately chose to give us two examples of NW power feats and it makes BfA even more damning, and forgiving Sylvanas (because it WAS forgiveness, even "soft" sentence would have her at least killed before sending her to collect souls in the Maw) even more stupid.

Sylvania's is already dead, killing her isn't a punishment for her crimes. I know why people want her dead, they want her removed from the story, but it's a foolish resolution to her arc, it's literally her winning considering her arc since the end of wrath has basically been trying to find a peaceful death that arthas denied. Like, she killed herself, death is exactly what she wants, why reward her?
The correct resolution to her story is exactly what she got, effectively eternal punishment righting her wrongs. As long as she is shelved for 3 or more expansions or so.

[VladlTutushkin]

Sylvania's is already dead, killing her isn't a punishment for her crimes. I know why people want her dead, they want her removed from the story, but it's a foolish resolution to her arc, it's literally her winning considering her arc since the end of wrath has basically been trying to find a peaceful death that arthas denied. Like, she killed herself, death is exactly what she wants, why reward her?
The correct resolution to her story is exactly what she got, effectively eternal punishment righting her wrongs. As long as she is shelved for 3 or more expansions or so.

"If you kill your enemies they win" is the dumbest story beat in any media. If you kill your enemies, especially when its literally one LAST enemy like Sylvanas was in Shadowlands after we beat the Jailer YOU win. She cant come back this way, if she is dead, and she can stay in Shadowlands.

Now she can pop back to Azeroth at any fucken minute when Danuser cries enough tears on Microsoft exec carpet and forces the writing team by bullying Golden like he did last time because old bag cant stand for herself apparently.

Her "punishment" is not eternal, she even had fucken Anduin coming to chat with her. If it was "punishments" she would be forbidden from interacting with anybody in the Maw, and nobody would be allowed to visit. She would essentially work in isolation, not knowing if it was days, weeks or ages. And there is a very finite amount of souls in the Maw, you know, after Jailer grinded most of them to anima dust. Its a LOT but its not "eternally" lot. Its not even "ten thousand years" lot. She will be back by the end of next expansion, i mean expansion AFTER Dragonflight.

Any time you can cut the enemy's throat - do it. And i mean "an enemy" not "rival", "opponent" or anything of that sort, The Enemy.

[cparle87]

So you just going to ride a formality while the actual question was more about "why the fuck they wrote this shit when they had better alternatives"?

I prefer living in reality and appreciating what is rather than be upset because reality doesn't conform to some nebulous idea with no concrete form that I'm totally sure would've been cooler if only they'd thought of it. You're totally free to make an account on fanfiction.net and write your story if you want, but please don't be mad because canon isn't how you like it. It's not productive.

[VladlTutushkin]

I prefer living in reality and appreciating what is rather than be upset because reality doesn't conform to some nebulous idea with no concrete form that I'm totally sure would've been cooler if only they'd thought of it. You're totally free to make an account on fanfiction.net and write your story if you want, but please don't be mad because canon isn't how you like it. It's not productive.

Oh wow. Guess horde fans should have just shut up and taken it when there was no Sylvanas loyalist path. Or when Calia was supposed to be their new Queen and not just a humble council member.

Well guess what? They didnt and Blizz actually caved in and changed story TWICE to accommodate them.

[Skandulous]

The night warrior arc is just a re hashed version of Maiev Shadowsong's story.

[Ferlion]

The night warrior arc is just a re hashed version of Maiev Shadowsong's story.

The issue with the Night Warrior is Blizzard wrote the idea of "We need this Night Warrior to exist" and then they shoved it on a character no matter if it fit or not.

They said in https://www.polygon.com/2019/1/15/18...s-of-vengeance that the Night Warrior was concept they had considered Maiev for, but gave to Tyrande because Maiev was in Legion.

“We certainly considered” making Maiev, the notoriously vengeful Warden, the Night Warrior instead, he says. Maiev had a full story arc in Legion with Illidan and the Vault of the Wardens, however, so the writing team decided that Tyrande and Malfurion needed a time to shine — as well as the ferocity of the Night Elves.

As for Sira and Delaryn being raised and joining the Forsaken, that was a “very deliberate choice,” according to Danuser. The team wanted to show various aspects of the Night Elves, as opposed to presenting them as a monolith. We should expect to see them return, too, he says: “These characters are important to the Night Elf culture.”

[VladlTutushkin]

The issue with the Night Warrior is Blizzard wrote the idea of "We need this Night Warrior to exist" and then they shoved it on a character no matter if it fit or not.

“Important to night elf culture” and then those fucks deliberately made them stay in the Horde.

How the fuck is this helping “night elf culture”?

[Ferlion]

“Important to night elf culture” and then those fucks deliberately made them stay in the Horde.

How the fuck is this helping “night elf culture”?

"If you want bad ass Night Elves the Horde is there for you"

But seriously, they will likely show up in Dragonflight and piss the 3 Night Elf fans left off even more.

[VladlTutushkin]

"If you want bad ass Night Elves the Horde is there for you"

But seriously, they will likely show up in Dragonflight and piss the 3 Night Elf fans left off even more.

And then people tell us that its not malice. Stupidity wouldnt go THAT far just by sheer chance.

[voidox]

the fact that the this power was actually called the "Night Warrior" and there was no actual name for it in Darnassian, says all that needs to be said for how poorly thought out and used this whole thing was. Clearly they had some plan for it but that was abandoned and it just turned into a plot device for "oh justice is vengeance" BS and for some "flashy cool" cinematics.