Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Biomega]

Counter example: Do you think Mechanar Heroic was the most popular in TBC (actual TBC) because it was the best designed one or because it awarded the most badges?

That's somewhat similar yes, but the question isn't "is that the same" - it's "okay it might be the same, and what's the problem with that exactly?".

Why does that matter? Because by framing it like this you're already implicitly suggesting there is something wrong with either Mechanar being the most popular dungeon because of its rewards OR with DF being popular because it's convenient.

Another example, do you think Warlock is the most popular (raiding) class in TBCC because they're the most fun to play or because it pulls the best numbers?

That's another flawed statement because you're implicitly suggesting that there's some kind of clear (if not strict) separation between fun and performance.

Which just isn't how it works.

To many people, it's fun BECAUSE it performs so well. And your question somehow categorically undermines that by suggesting there's either fun or performance, and that somehow these are separately evaluated.

THAT'S EXTREMELY FALLACIOUS REASONING.

There's many examples where players clearly favor the most efficient option not because it's the most engaging one but simply because it's the most efficient one, even when that option comes at the detriment of their own experience.

Now you're making an entirely different argument.

For this, you'd have to actually DEMONSTRATE that something like DF is ACTUALLY a worse experience.

You're just assuming this wildly with no evidence or demonstration; in fact, you're actively positing this IN THE FACE OF POPULARITY, so you can't even argue that more people like it (because they clearly don't), and that makes it tricky to find a good metric for what is and is not "fun".

That doesn't mean the less efficient option is the "good" one, but citing the fact that players engage in X (when X is just being the more efficient option) as the "good" one is just false and WoW itself has proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I'm not using "good" anywhere. You are. All I'm saying is that if in a hypothetical scenario participation numbers turn out a certain way, then that's clearly where player preference lies. If your argument is "X is more fun" but if given the choice between X and Y the vast majority don't actually choose X, then how did you determine that X is, in fact, more fun? That's precisely what I've tried to expose in my example. And it also doesn't mean (and I'm not saying it anywhere) that in such a hypothetical it follows that Y must be "more fun" - only that it's more popular.

The problem really boils down to some people thinking they understand what "fun" means and how it's measured, and that because of that, they get to determine what should be fun or more fun, even if it goes against the popular choice. I'm asking 1. where that confidence is coming from; and 2. what gives them the right to make those determinations for other people. The fact that very often what they think is most fun also just so happens to coincide with their personal preference makes me very suspicious.

I get that developers have the final say and we can't really question them on authority; only on result. But for people to defend things as though their personal preference was somehow sanctified as "officially" fun/more fun because it coincides with dev decisions is nothing but pure hubris.

[storn206]

...and I wish they'd have RDF from the beginning. I absolutely hate wading through the countless groups that have "XX item on res" in a 5man fucking dungeon, the general LFG chat spam clogged with political talk and "lol Blizz too woke", and the "booster spam." It'll likely just get worse with achievements and GS-like addons..

So why not create your own group and don't do that?

[DarkAmbient]

This is simply a fallacious statement.

Counter example: Do you think Mechanar Heroic was the most popular in TBC (actual TBC) because it was the best designed one or because it awarded the most badges?

Devs even called this the "Mechanar syndrome"
https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...522049?lang=en

Another example, do you think Warlock is the most popular (raiding) class in TBCC because they're the most fun to play or because it pulls the best numbers?

There's many examples where players clearly favor the most efficient option not because it's the most engaging one but simply because it's the most efficient one, even when that option comes at the detriment of their own experience.

That doesn't mean the less efficient option is the "good" one, but citing the fact that players engage in X (when X is just being the more efficient option) as the "good" one is just false and WoW itself has proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Did it not occur to you that people find it fun to pull the best numbers? For many that is what is fun about the game, they choose the most OP class and play it because they like big numbers. In TBC that was locks, hunters, mages and fury warriors IIRC. If the class is fun/easy then all the better.

You are judging the worthiness of the various ways of forming groups according to how 'engaging' the process is. Do you think people formed groups because doing that was an engaging experience in and of itself, or because it was a hurdle they had to get over in order to complete the content and get their rewards? Were they spamming chat channels thinking, "Man, I love having to do this so I can complete the content and get my loot, it's so engaging"? People don't think about the process of forming groups in that way.

It's not to players' detriment that they can join groups faster and access the content faster than they would have done without the dungeon finder. It's why they abandoned the old way as soon as a better one became available.

[Kralljin]

Why does that matter? Because by framing it like this you're already implicitly suggesting there is something wrong with either Mechanar being the most popular dungeon because of its rewards OR with DF being popular because it's convenient.

The point is that you cannot point cite the popularity without addressing the simple truth that it's popular largely because its efficiency.

That's another flawed statement because you're implicitly suggesting that there's some kind of clear (if not strict) separation between fun and performance.

The same can also be said about efficiency, the problem still is that something performing very well isn't necessarily a sign of it being well designed or somehow good.

And in regards to Warlocks in particular, i think we can pretty much rule out that people derive their enjoyment from anything but the numbers, because the gameplay sure as shit isn't carrying it.
I think most people that play Lock right now would say "yeah, being #1 is fun, but so boring", which is absolutely not a good state.

For this, you'd have to actually DEMONSTRATE that something like DF is ACTUALLY a worse experience.

The argument just boils down to the simple fact that the prime directive of the player at large is one thing: efficiency.

And that frankly complicates the discussion, because as i said, it's not clear cut that an efficient option isn't necessarily the bad one, but you cannot cite the popularity of the efficient as proof that it's the better option.

I'm not using "good" anywhere. You are.

By citing the fact that people prefer DF over another option you imply that, there's no beating around it.

The problem really boils down to some people thinking they understand what "fun" means and how it's measured

Nor do i claim to do so, but more people engaging in a the more efficient option isn't proof.

Did it not occur to you that people find it fun to pull the best numbers?

Considering that my question was obviously rhetorical in nature, it's not exactly a good comeback to come up with another rhetorical question.

Because the point that is being made is obvious: I think most people will agree that pressing a single button for top dps isn't good class design.

[Super Kami Dende]

If you're a healer or tank, you can pull DPS in quickly, then fit the last player in with the leverage of LF1M. Whole group will be set in 90 seconds if you start with healer and tank. If you're DPS, you don't flail about with LFG. You keep your eye on the bulletin board and whisper when something pops up. Wrath won't have TBC's class stigma, either.

Or you bypass that shit and just have RDF and be matched together anyway. If you are just randomly joining People in a Bulletin, why care if you just have a system randomly join you to groups instead. Without the needing to wait around or travel to the dungeon.

Literally zero reason to keep RDF out of Wrath and is only being done to appease the usual backwards crowd.

[NineSpine]

You speak against lumping people together, but...

I've played all of TBC classic, and plan to continue through all of WotLK...

...and I wish they'd have RDF from the beginning. I absolutely hate wading through the countless groups that have "XX item on res" in a 5man fucking dungeon, the general LFG chat spam clogged with political talk and "lol Blizz too woke", and the "booster spam." It'll likely just get worse with achievements and GS-like addons.

So you're kinda lumping people together too. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Maybe their "new" tool will help with these things? Who knows? I still wish there was RDF available.

But you are playing, aren’t you? I’m specifically talking about the “I won’t play without LFD” people. I could have been clearer. If LFD is your dealbreaker, there is no way you are dealing with all of the other old school design choices.

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Or you bypass that shit and just have RDF and be matched together anyway. If you are just randomly joining People in a Bulletin, why care if you just have a system randomly join you to groups instead. Without the needing to wait around or travel to the dungeon.

Literally zero reason to keep RDF out of Wrath and is only being done to appease the usual backwards crowd.

The “usual backwards crowd” is who plays classic. The game is for them. You act like it’s a crazy idea that a product would be built to “appease” the people who pay for it.

[Celarent]

If you are just randomly joining People in a Bulletin, why care if you just have a system randomly join you to groups instead.

Because not everything should be automated, especially if the reasoning for it through examples doesn't hold up.

Even small social contracts, from negotiating to join, to the ownership of a group, make a difference. Motivations and behavior change, even if some can't understand how or why.

To that point, I see a lot of posts about players not communicating or interacting or cooperating. Okay, that's that one guy who can't socialize. Why cater the game to him?

[TJ]

Because not everything should be automated, especially if the reasoning for it through examples doesn't hold up.

Even small social contracts, from negotiating to join, to the ownership of a group, make a difference. Motivations and behavior change, even if some can't understand how or why.

To that point, I see a lot of posts about players not communicating or interacting or cooperating. Okay, that's that one guy who can't socialize. Why cater the game to him?

One guy? Dude, 99% of groups are like that (at least in my experience). I've done a lot of pugging in TBC and Vanilla, TBC especially has extremely minimal social interaction. Outside of "hi" and "thx bye" there's pretty much nothing, sometimes not even that.

Another thing for me, I've been in 3 guilds and even they seem different than before. I know everyone's guild is different, but in original TBC/Wrath people in general just seemed waaay more sociable. I remember being on Mumble/Vent for hours after raid laughing and chilling with guildies. Now it seems like no one can really be arsed.

[Cayde69]

But you are playing, aren’t you? I’m specifically talking about the “I won’t play without LFD” people. I could have been clearer. If LFD is your dealbreaker, there is no way you are dealing with all of the other old school design choices.

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The “usual backwards crowd” is who plays classic. The game is for them. You act like it’s a crazy idea that a product would be built to “appease” the people who pay for it.

What are you talking about? You specifically said that the target audience for classic is the people playing right now who are old school mmo fans and only people who are coming in classic short term and “aren’t paying the bills” only are asking for LFD at launch.

I’m playing classic right now as well have been since tbc came out and I want lfd at launch. Does that make me not a true classic fan?

[Celarent]

Another thing for me, I've been in 3 guilds and even they seem different than before. I know everyone's guild is different, but in original TBC/Wrath people in general just seemed waaay more sociable. I remember being on Mumble/Vent for hours after raid laughing and chilling with guildies. Now it seems like no one can really be arsed.

With pugs, I've found it depends. I'm not talking frienz for lyfe stuff, either; just common courtesy, a little humanity. Most of the time, I'm surprised by how few people are zero-personality.

I think Blizzard will introduce LFD before the end. Maybe sooner if us folks are wrong, and after a mea culpa people will forget and queue. Once it's in, it's in, though. Unless there's data on a huge chunk sitting out, doesn't make sense to *not* see how the game fares without.

[NineSpine]

What are you talking about? You specifically said that the target audience for classic is the people playing right now who are old school mmo fans and only people who are coming in classic short term and “aren’t paying the bills” only are asking for LFD at launch.

I’m playing classic right now as well have been since tbc came out and I want lfd at launch. Does that make me not a true classic fan?

And then I clarified that I am primarily referring to the people DEMANDING it, as in saying that they won't play without LFD at launch. It's a simple argument: If you are the type of person so put off by the lack of LFD that you wouldn't play without it, you are not going to be able to tolerate so many other aspects of the classic design that adding LFD for you would be pointless.

I specifically said in another post that I am not declaring who is a true fan or anything. Stop trying so desperately to be offended.

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Or you bypass that shit and just have RDF and be matched together anyway. If you are just randomly joining People in a Bulletin, why care if you just have a system randomly join you to groups instead. Without the needing to wait around or travel to the dungeon.

Literally zero reason to keep RDF out of Wrath and is only being done to appease the usual backwards crowd.

If using the group finder tool is so similar, why do you care so much?

[DarkAmbient]

Considering that my question was obviously rhetorical in nature, it's not exactly a good comeback to come up with another rhetorical question.

Because the point that is being made is obvious: I think most people will agree that pressing a single button for top dps isn't good class design.

You missed the point that many clearly do not feel that efficiency is detrimental to their experience, hence the shadowbolt-spamming warlocks and RDF-spamming dungeoneers. I don't think you can convince someone who wants to access content as quickly as possible that taking the slower option isn't detrimental to them. You're going to have to explain the tangible benefits, both immediate and long-term, of depriving themselves of convenience.

This whole argument is a bit like when I think of life growing up before the internet and mobile phones. Are there aspects of an unconnected life that I miss? Absolutely. Would I want to go back to that? Fuck no.

[NineSpine]

You missed the point that many clearly do not feel that efficiency is detrimental to their experience, hence the shadowbolt-spamming warlocks and RDF-spamming dungeoneers. I don't think you can convince someone who wants to access content as quickly as possible that taking the slower option isn't detrimental to them. You're going to have to explain the tangible benefits, both immediate and long-term, of depriving themselves of convenience.

This whole argument is a bit like when I think of life growing up before the internet and mobile phones. Are there aspects of an unconnected life that I miss? Absolutely. Would I want to go back to that? Fuck no.

Now imagine that there is a camp for people who genuinely prefer the unconnected life. They have their space. They are enjoying it. This is how they want to spend their time.

Then some people come along and say "If I can just use my cell phone sometimes, I'd come stay here too!"

Isn't that person sort of missing the point entirely? And at the end of the day if occasional cell phone use is the dealbreaker for them, do you really think they would enjoy an otherwise completely unconnected lifestyle? Probably not. So why change the camp for these people that don't seem very interested in the overall vibe of the camp?

[Super Kami Dende]

The “usual backwards crowd” is who plays classic. The game is for them. You act like it’s a crazy idea that a product would be built to “appease” the people who pay for it.

I played through Wrath and always wanted to play a Classic Wrath. RDF was one of the best things Wrath ever did for the game. So no, making something I'd want to play be purposefully worse doesn't mean it is built for me.

Literally everyone I know that played back then and has come back to Classic and TBC Classic all want RDF in Wrath as well.

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If using the group finder tool is so similar, why do you care so much?

Because it is similar but not as good? What kind of stupid fucking question is that? It's like asking Why eat a Cheeseburger when you could just eat the Bun and Sauce.

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Now imagine that there is a camp for people who genuinely prefer the unconnected life. They have their space. They are enjoying it. This is how they want to spend their time.

Then some people come along and say "If I can just use my cell phone sometimes, I'd come stay here too!"

Isn't that person sort of missing the point entirely? And at the end of the day if occasional cell phone use is the dealbreaker for them, do you really think they would enjoy an otherwise completely unconnected lifestyle? Probably not. So why change the camp for these people that don't seem very interested in the overall vibe of the camp?

Your analogy would make sense if the Camp was always going to end up getting Cellphones themselves eventually. People act as though Wrath didn't have RDF for half its lifespan. Which was its better half.

[NineSpine]

I played through Wrath and always wanted to play a Classic Wrath. RDF was one of the best things Wrath ever did for the game. So no, making something I'd want to play be purposefully worse doesn't mean it is built for me.

Great, so just like Wrath originally was, you want it to be present for just the ICC patch and the last three months of Wrath Classic right?

Literally everyone I know that played back then and has come back to Classic and TBC Classic all want RDF in Wrath as well.

Because it is similar but not as good? What kind of stupid fucking question is that? It's like asking Why eat a Cheeseburger when you could just eat the Bun and Sauce.

Which is it? Is group finder SO SIMILAR to RDF that nobody should object, or is group finder SO DIFFERENT to RDF that we need LFD? It can't both.

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Your analogy would make sense if the Camp was always going to end up getting Cellphones themselves eventually. People act as though Wrath didn't have RDF for half its lifespan. Which was its better half.

"Lifespan" doesn't mean anything. Classic doesn't release phases based on how long patches lasted. It's irrelevant.

[Kralljin]

You missed the point that many clearly do not feel that efficiency is detrimental to their experience, hence the shadowbolt-spamming warlocks and RDF-spamming dungeoneers.

I find it a crapshoot of a theory to believe that most people do not care that their entire damage rotation consists out of a single button.
The point is simple, people could play something more engaging (such Fire Destro, where you at least press two more buttons), but because it doesn't perform as well, they stick to shadowbolt spam.

People could choose a more enganging option or the more efficient option, the reality is that most people will choose the more efficient option regardless of their preferences.
That's the point, it's not so clear cut that simply because they choose the efficient path, they automatically agree or disregard any potential negative aspects of their choice, which impacts their enjoyment.

You could implement a spec that oneshots everyone in PvP, i am certain everyone will quickly swap to this spec only but that doesn't mean that spec is well designed or it would be remotely healthy for the game.

I don't think you can convince someone who wants to access content as quickly as possible that taking the slower option isn't detrimental to them.

That is absolutely true, because such a person doesn't care if they never have to leave a capital city for anything.

I however argue, that a lot of people also fall in between, some people don't care either way, some people might prefer travelling yet because the prime directive in most decisions is the efficiency, they'll do what's most efficient.

You really have to see that players are sometimes contradicting beings, take World buffs in Classic, everyone complained about them, yet most people still went out of their way to get them each week anyway.
Taking a read from those actions as "WoW, players must really like World buffs" would have been very stupid.

And frankly, getting obsessed over the travelling aspect of DF, which kick off this argument here, is really junior share's of the DF debate, if a 5min travel (where the majority within every group can even opt out of) is the reason why you'd need DF, i think you're just being silly.

[DarkAmbient]

Now imagine that there is a camp for people who genuinely prefer the unconnected life. They have their space. They are enjoying it. This is how they want to spend their time.

Then some people come along and say "If I can just use my cell phone sometimes, I'd come stay here too!"

Isn't that person sort of missing the point entirely? And at the end of the day if occasional cell phone use is the dealbreaker for them, do you really think they would enjoy an otherwise completely unconnected lifestyle? Probably not. So why change the camp for these people that don't seem very interested in the overall vibe of the camp?

RDF was in Wrath, so this argument is invalid.

[NineSpine]

RDF was in Wrath, so this argument is invalid.

I don't care what was in or not in Wrath. I'm talking about the Classic ecosystem and the people that want to be there. Classic is for people who want an old school MMO, not people who want to relive their glory days and leave in two weeks.

Also, this is not even a debate over RDF in 3.3. This is a debate over RDF in launch. That is what is being demanded, so appealing to "The way wrath was" is moot.

[Flarelaine]

They just hate that with RDF, average Joes now have the power to get epics and actually progress without sucking off the people who have a deathgrip on the server. The google spreadsheet owners with editing access. RDF would take that away and it terrifies them.

That is... hyperbolic. No player can keep another from epics. RDF is for those unwilling to invest the time and effort needed to form and maintain a working relationship with other players.

[Cayde69]

And then I clarified that I am primarily referring to the people DEMANDING it, as in saying that they won't play without LFD at launch. It's a simple argument: If you are the type of person so put off by the lack of LFD that you wouldn't play without it, you are not going to be able to tolerate so many other aspects of the classic design that adding LFD for you would be pointless.

I specifically said in another post that I am not declaring who is a true fan or anything. Stop trying so desperately to be offended.

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If using the group finder tool is so similar, why do you care so much?

Let’s be as clear as possible here, you’re just changing your argument. You aren’t clarifying. It’s not that what you said wasn’t clear, it’s that you didn’t say that at all, there was nothing to clarify.

You specifically said “there is a target audience for classic and they do not want LFD, they don’t want anything like LFD”. There’s no clarification needed there, you’re just wrong. There is nothing more to it.

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I don't care what was in or not in Wrath. I'm talking about the Classic ecosystem and the people that want to be there. Classic is for people who want an old school MMO, not people who want to relive their glory days and leave in two weeks.

Also, this is not even a debate over RDF in 3.3. This is a debate over RDF in launch. That is what is being demanded, so appealing to "The way wrath was" is moot.

You’re so confidently saying “classic is for people who want old school mmos” as if that’s true. I don’t want old school mmos. I don’t want this lack of quality of life systems just because. I want to play wrath. Wrath had LFD. Period.