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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Also WoW's social experience is a total myth, you only need to look at TBC classic's LFG channels to see how little social interaction there is in spamming "LF Tank/Healer MGT H" followed by a 15-20 minute dungeon run where the most anyone says is "hi" at the start and "thanks, cya" at the end.
    The social experience was not in 5-mans with total strangers (although I've been in runs with some nice chat). It was in gathering people you could call on to tank/heal one for you. With expectations of reciprocity, obviously.

    Good point about slowing the badge farm, though.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by kirzan View Post
    They just hate that with RDF, average Joes now have the power to get epics and actually progress without sucking off the people who have a deathgrip on the server. The google spreadsheet owners with editing access. RDF would take that away and it terrifies them.
    This is 100% the truth behind this and any other things like Master Loot. Gatekeepers want their safe space.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Cayde69 View Post
    Let’s be as clear as possible here, you’re just changing your argument. You aren’t clarifying. It’s not that what you said wasn’t clear, it’s that you didn’t say that at all, there was nothing to clarify.

    You specifically said “there is a target audience for classic and they do not want LFD, they don’t want anything like LFD”. There’s no clarification needed there, you’re just wrong. There is nothing more to it.
    It is objectively true that the target audience is not people who want LFD. Do you know how we know this? Because they aren't adding LFD.

    You’re so confidently saying “classic is for people who want old school mmos” as if that’s true. I don’t want old school mmos. I don’t want this lack of quality of life systems just because. I want to play wrath. Wrath had LFD. Period.
    Good for you. Blizzard does not consider you the target audience, therefore classic isn't being made for you. If it was, it would have LFD.

    If you would stop trying to get your sad little gotchas in, and stopped trying to find ways to be offended, we could have a genuine conversation.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I don't care what was in or not in Wrath. I'm talking about the Classic ecosystem and the people that want to be there. Classic is for people who want an old school MMO, not people who want to relive their glory days and leave in two weeks.

    Also, this is not even a debate over RDF in 3.3. This is a debate over RDF in launch. That is what is being demanded, so appealing to "The way wrath was" is moot.
    Seems to me the people playing classic and looking forward to Wrath are the people who wanted the game to be largely as it was back in the day, and not because they bought into some philosophy of classic thought up by Blizzard sometime later. Judging by the polls I've seen most people looking forward to Wrath are not happy about it being unexpectedly gimped by the removal of widely used feature just so the game aligns with a philosophy that doesn't appear to reflect what the majority actually want.

    And perhaps the imminent deletion of 21 servers is a sign that people really did just want to relive the glory days and then quit.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    This is 100% the truth behind this and any other things like Master Loot. Gatekeepers want their safe space.
    How is someone stopping you from running dungeons??!?! It's so easy in TBC classic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Seems to me the people playing classic and looking forward to Wrath are the people who wanted the game to be largely as it was back in the day, and not because they bought into some philosophy of classic thought up by Blizzard sometime later. Judging by the polls I've seen most people looking forward to Wrath are not happy about it being unexpectedly gimped by the removal of widely used feature just so the game aligns with a philosophy that doesn't appear to reflect what the majority actually want.
    If that was true, people would be demanding LFD in 3.3, but they aren't. They are demanding LFD at launch, so they do not want Wrath as it was. That's the giveaway. That's the tell.

    And perhaps the imminent deletion of 21 servers is a sign that people really did just want to relive the glory days and then quit.
    Yeah, and then those people left... so the game isn't being made for them. It's being made for the audience that sticks around. Isn't that what I have said multiple times?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yeah, and then those people left... so the game isn't being made for them. It's being made for the audience that sticks around. Isn't that what I have said multiple times?
    who is it then ? 10k people left in tbc classic realms ?

    i mean blizzard has never before was forced to merge servers - and yet tbc classic peoven to be so unpopular that they have no choice but to merge servers.

    proving you to be wrong.

    well at least in wolk classic they will start merging them 1 month after release once they realise people did not sub to play non lfd wolk version :0 win win for me

  7. #467
    Looks like they are cutting out the social part of the whole group thing anyway. Just click on the board and go. Feels like just slowing things down without much reason at this point.
    Last edited by Low Hanging Fruit; 2022-06-22 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    One guy? Dude, 99% of groups are like that (at least in my experience). I've done a lot of pugging in TBC and Vanilla, TBC especially has extremely minimal social interaction. Outside of "hi" and "thx bye" there's pretty much nothing, sometimes not even that.

    Another thing for me, I've been in 3 guilds and even they seem different than before. I know everyone's guild is different, but in original TBC/Wrath people in general just seemed waaay more sociable. I remember being on Mumble/Vent for hours after raid laughing and chilling with guildies. Now it seems like no one can really be arsed.
    thts because people back then were 12-18 year old. now its 35-40+ year olds trying to relive their youth - but life happens and nobody has time to sit on discord longer then for raid night,

    people have their social lives in real world. only people with some kind of problems look for socialisation via internet as 35 + year olds . lets not pretend its otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Looks like they are cutting out the social part of the whole group thing anyway. Just click on the board and go. Feels like just slowing things down without much reason at this point.
    only reason is Ion being to stubborn to admit he was wrong and lfd should be in game.

    untill he is gone wow will continiue to be not fun to play - that guy literaly hates people having fun in wow.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    who is it then ? 10k people left in tbc classic realms ?

    i mean blizzard has never before was forced to merge servers - and yet tbc classic peoven to be so unpopular that they have no choice but to merge servers.

    proving you to be wrong.

    well at least in wolk classic they will start merging them 1 month after release once they realise people did not sub to play non lfd wolk version :0 win win for me
    It appears to have something like 300,000 active players based on the ironforge.pro census site.

    it's not unpopular. It's that everyone migrated to high pop servers.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I don't care what was in or not in Wrath. I'm talking about the Classic ecosystem and the people that want to be there. Classic is for people who want an old school MMO, not people who want to relive their glory days and leave in two weeks.
    This is just an idea that you came up with and chose to believe. Besides, why aren't these "old school MMO lovers" playing Classic Era anyway? WotLK should feel repugnant to them even without the addition of LFD.
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Also, this is not even a debate over RDF in 3.3. This is a debate over RDF in launch. That is what is being demanded, so appealing to "The way wrath was" is moot.
    Is it accurate then to conclude from this that you would be OK with LFD being added in 3.3?

    There are two distinct questions discussed in this thread, namely "if" and "when", because the people responding affirmative to the former do not necessarily agree on the answer to the later. However, the relevance of this thread is, for now, primarily with respect to the "if" question, given that Blizzard's current position is to not have LFD at all (prior 3.3 or with the launch of 3.3). This is a flat out removal of one of the expansion's fundamental features, one that many people were genuinely excited for.

  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    I can't be bothered to read the thread entirely - so this most likely has already been said

    But to answer the OP's question:

    The addition of the WotLK Group Finder tool was one of the first steps that many people consider as the start of WoW's downtrend in playerbase. It definitely contributed to the servers feeling much smaller and mattering less, as you no longer needed to rely on just your server in order to get things done. You didn't even need a guild anymore to see content. It started to diminish WoW's social experience, which seems to be something the people in charge of Classic are trying to avoid.

    Its not a hatred for the tool itself, but what happened as a side effect of when it was originally implemented.
    pretty much sums it up. once RDF got added WoW became less of an MMO and more of a solo rpg fo most of the game except for raiding. Server reputation didnt matter anymore cause you could hit a button adn get a new group. Before RDF we knew who the server ninjas were. we knew whop teh players were that would just drop out of a group at the first bad pull. with rdf yo had no control over it. so yes making it go away so that server socialization stays relevant is a good thing IMO
    “Listen, three eyes,” he said, “don’t you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.”

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by BarosanuNr1 View Post
    This is just an idea that you came up with and chose to believe. Besides, why aren't these "old school MMO lovers" playing Classic Era anyway? WotLK should feel repugnant to them even without the addition of LFD.
    What I am saying is based on Blizzard's communications, including what they said when they announced Wrath and indicated it wouldn't include LFD.

    Is it accurate then to conclude from this that you would be OK with LFD being added in 3.3?
    I don't particularly care either way to be honest. I'm simply informing people of the reality of classic and Blizzard's strategy for it.

    There are two distinct questions discussed in this thread, namely "if" and "when", because the people responding affirmative to the former do not necessarily agree on the answer to the later. However, the relevance of this thread is, for now, primarily with respect to the "if" question, given that Blizzard's current position is to not have LFD at all (prior 3.3 or with the launch of 3.3). This is a flat out removal of one of the expansion's fundamental features, one that many people were genuinely excited for.
    And Blizzard is not including it because they decided Classic is for old school MMO fans not for nostalgists or people that want a museum.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If that was true, people would be demanding LFD in 3.3, but they aren't. They are demanding LFD at launch, so they do not want Wrath as it was. That's the giveaway. That's the tell.

    Yeah, and then those people left... so the game isn't being made for them. It's being made for the audience that sticks around. Isn't that what I have said multiple times?
    I'd be cool with the DF appearing in 3.3. and I haven't come across many demanding it right from the start to be honest. Just knowing it was coming would be enough for me.

    There was always going to be a core of people who'd stick around, far fewer than Blizzard expected it seems. But the version of the game that included the dungeon finder hasn't been released yet, and the audience who stuck around had no idea that the dungeon finder was going to be removed, so you can't really use their continued presence in the game as a reason to promote the idea that the dungeon finder was unwanted in Wrath and potential later versions of classic.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What I am saying is based on Blizzard's communications, including what they said when they announced Wrath and indicated it wouldn't include LFD. [...] And Blizzard is not including it because they decided Classic is for old school MMO fans not for nostalgists or people that want a museum.
    Fair enough. I guess then that the disagreement is on whether Blizzard should keep or change their current position. Which they can do at any time.

    There remains, however, an unanswered question from my previous post (not directed at you in particular):
    Why aren't these "old school MMO lovers" playing Classic Era anyway? WotLK should feel repugnant to them even without the addition of LFD.
    I insist on this because I think that it illustrates the flaw in Blizzard's current position as you describe it. They intend to maintain two substantially different versions of the game targeted at the same audience. There is nothing precluding them from dipping into both communities' pockets simultaneously while keeping everyone happy.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by kirzan View Post
    They just hate that with RDF, average Joes now have the power to get epics and actually progress without sucking off the people who have a deathgrip on the server. The google spreadsheet owners with editing access. RDF would take that away and it terrifies them.
    I find it hilarious that some people even agree with this insane PoV.

    "Oh no, some random pleb typed "lf tank & heal for Nexus", we gotta stop him from acquiring more gear, we're losing our grip on the Server!!"

  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thts because people back then were 12-18 year old. now its 35-40+ year olds trying to relive their youth - but life happens and nobody has time to sit on discord longer then for raid night,

    people have their social lives in real world. only people with some kind of problems look for socialisation via internet as 35 + year olds . lets not pretend its otherwise
    Hell of a generalisation there matey, I don't think everyone is in the same boat as yourself. A lot of people also do have more free time than the 2 hours required to complete a raid.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And Blizzard is not including it because they decided Classic is for old school MMO fans not for nostalgists or people that want a museum.
    You keep saying this but I fail to understand why you're so insistent on separating "nostalgists" from "old school MMO fans." The game can (and should) cater to both demographics. There isn't a voice that's more important than the other because some of what you call those old school MMO fans might have started as nostalgists and just found out they like the old version of the game more.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It is objectively true that the target audience is not people who want LFD. Do you know how we know this? Because they aren't adding LFD.



    Good for you. Blizzard does not consider you the target audience, therefore classic isn't being made for you. If it was, it would have LFD.

    If you would stop trying to get your sad little gotchas in, and stopped trying to find ways to be offended, we could have a genuine conversation.
    I know you think you just came up with something slick here, but you didn’t lol.

    Just because blizzard added something that I disagree with doesn’t mean I’m still not the target audience. If this is the case then the only real target audience is someone who literally agrees with every single change period.

    You know what’s really funny is just a couple of pages ago you were talking about lumping people in groups and that’s literally what you’re doing right now. You’re lumping me into a group of ‘not the real target audience’ because I disagree with what you said.

    Your hypocrisy is almost as bad as your logic.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    only reason is Ion being to stubborn to admit he was wrong and lfd should be in game.

    untill he is gone wow will continiue to be not fun to play - that guy literaly hates people having fun in wow.
    Hard to argue against that. Game has slide further and further back under his wing.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    It was added in 3.3, not "to begin with".

    And just because it was that way does not mean it was objectively a good decision that everyone liked. TBC originally had Seal of Blood as exclusive to Blood Elf paladins...yeah that was a fucking awful decision because it just made horde paladins outright better than alliance ones, so Blizzard changed it for Classic.

    Similarly, LFD ruined the game by making everything cross-realm insta-teleport which just completely goes against what an MMO is supposed to be. It destroyed server communities by making dungeons cross-realm with strangers you'll never see again after the run ends. The game functioned perfectly fine without it. We don't need it
    It wasn't LFD who ruined the game though? That just such a hilarious stretch, not even you can believe that?
    But for sake of argument, lets pretend it was... Why not improve on the feature instead of removing it only to add it back anyhow?
    They could easily have made LFG server wide, adding convenience. Or they could have added teleport features such as on retail.
    They could have done tons of things to not shit on arguably the best feature of the whole expansion.

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