Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Ragedaug]

People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.

Nope. Just want the same accessibility we had the first time around. That's all.

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Similarly, LFD ruined the game by making everything cross-realm insta-teleport which just completely goes against what an MMO is supposed to be. It destroyed server communities by making dungeons cross-realm with strangers you'll never see again after the run ends.

So you are saying if they made LFD locked to each server, and you still have to make your way to the dungeon manually, you would be good with it. It would at least be a big improvement from what we have now. That said, there's still times on my populated server when there's no one queued for any one of several dungeons, so I would still prefer it being cross realm. Also to note, I never see the random strangers I pug with now in TBC after our dungeon is done. So that's why that feature doesn't bother me. It wouldn't change anything other than saving me time finding groups and allowing me to run dungeons I wouldn't be able to otherwise.

The game functioned perfectly fine without it.

When I log on and can't find a single group all evening for the dungeon I need to run for my quest, something is not functioning perfectly fine.

We don't need it.

If I can't find a dungeon group without it, "need" starts to become the correct term.

[NineSpine]

I know you think you just came up with something slick here, but you didn’t lol.

Just because blizzard added something that I disagree with doesn’t mean I’m still not the target audience. If this is the case then the only real target audience is someone who literally agrees with every single change period.

You know what’s really funny is just a couple of pages ago you were talking about lumping people in groups and that’s literally what you’re doing right now. You’re lumping me into a group of ‘not the real target audience’ because I disagree with what you said.

Your hypocrisy is almost as bad as your logic.

If I walk into a Chinese restaurant and ask for a hamburger and they say no, I can't claim that I am the target customer and they should listen to me.

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You keep saying this but I fail to understand why you're so insistent on separating "nostalgists" from "old school MMO fans." The game can (and should) cater to both demographics. There isn't a voice that's more important than the other because some of what you call those old school MMO fans might have started as nostalgists and just found out they like the old version of the game more.

Sometimes what both crowds want is at odds, and in that case Blizzard is going to go with the crowd that consistently pays for the game.

What I am telling you is that if Blizzard said "LFD will be in the 3.3 phase" it would make virtually no difference. The type of people demanding LFD will play for a month and leave long before LFD is there, while the old school MMO folks that are still around in 3.3 will be generally offput by LFD. It's a losing strategy, based on the information we have and what Blizzard has told us.

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Nope. Just want the same accessibility we had the first time around. That's all.

Let's be honest. This isn't about LFD in 3.3. People are demanding it at launch. That's why this is so contentious.

[littlefoote]

I'm a die-hard Classic fan, and firmly in the #NoChanges club. Because of this, I would be hugely disappointed if they proceed with leaving the dungeon finder out of Wrath.

You can’t be a fan of classic and in the no changes line lol. There needs to be quality of life changes for the health of the game.

[Ragedaug]

Let's be honest. This isn't about LFD in 3.3. People are demanding it at launch. That's why this is so contentious.

If I'm being honest, I don't think the contentiousness is about 'when' we get it. The people who like it want it at launch (me included) and the people who don't like it don't want it left out of Wrath completely.

Similar to guild banks and dual spec. They were both features added later in their respective Xpacs, but I would prefer them both be in from the start. I don't see a good reason for keeping QOL features, that were originally added later in the expansion, from being added at the start of the Classic Xpac. Similar to how we start with end XPac class changes.

[Cayde69]

If I walk into a Chinese restaurant and ask for a hamburger and they say no, I can't claim that I am the target customer and they should listen to me.

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Sometimes what both crowds want is at odds, and in that case Blizzard is going to go with the crowd that consistently pays for the game.

What I am telling you is that if Blizzard said "LFD will be in the 3.3 phase" it would make virtually no difference. The type of people demanding LFD will play for a month and leave long before LFD is there, while the old school MMO folks that are still around in 3.3 will be generally offput by LFD. It's a losing strategy, based on the information we have and what Blizzard has told us.

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Let's be honest. This isn't about LFD in 3.3. People are demanding it at launch. That's why this is so contentious.

This post right here is why I said your hypocrisy is ALMOST as bad as your logic. Comparing asking for a burger at a Chinese food place, to asking for a feature that was in wotlk to be in wotlk, is absolutely fucking brain dead.

[anon5123]

It wasn't LFD who ruined the game though? That just such a hilarious stretch, not even you can believe that?

not an argument

Why not improve on the feature instead of removing it only to add it back anyhow?

Except they are improving on it, by giving us the retail Premade Groups tab, which is a perfect medium between the two extremes.

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When I log on and can't find a single group all evening for the dungeon I need to run for my quest, something is not functioning perfectly fine.

That's a server population issue, not a game design issue.

LFD is a band aid on broken server populations. We don't need to be destroying the integrity of the game just to patch up a few servers with population issues.

[Biomega]

By citing the fact that people prefer DF over another option you imply that, there's no beating around it.

Nor do i claim to do so, but more people engaging in a the more efficient option isn't proof.

You seem to be confused.

You're saying "X is better/more fun than Y". I'm saying "X is more popular than Y". THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Mine is easily verified empirically (and not even in much contention to begin with, as many people advocating for DF freely concede its popularity), while yours would be very difficult to demonstrate.

[Kralljin]

You're saying "X is better/more fun than Y".

I'm not, i'm saying that you cannot cite a the participation metrics of any given tool and draw upon the conclusion that everyone of those actually prefers it, there are other factors at play.
Efficiency being the biggest one of them.

I also grabbed World buffs in Classic, that doesn't mean i would've loved to see them in TBC.

[Biomega]

I'm not, i'm saying that you cannot cite a the participation metrics of any given tool and draw upon the conclusion that everyone of those actually prefers it, there are other factors at play.

What other factors?

That's what I mean - I'm only talking about popularity. If you think there's more at play, DEMONSTRATE IT.

I also grabbed World buffs in Classic, that doesn't mean i would've loved to see them in TBC.

But that's not the same, because there isn't an alternative to choose from. World Buffs are just a binary exist/not exist. But with DF the choice isn't between dungeon finder or NO DUNGEONS.

What would be the same is if it was something like "either you get world buffs automatically every 2 hours, or you have to manually go visit 5 locations in the world and click a thing to get them" or something like that.

[Cayde69]

not an argument


Except they are improving on it, by giving us the retail Premade Groups tab, which is a perfect medium between the two extremes.

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That's a server population issue, not a game design issue.

LFD is a band aid on broken server populations. We don't need to be destroying the integrity of the game just to patch up a few servers with population issues.

It’s not a server population issue, well for some people it may be, but that doesn’t mean it still isn’t an issue with non dead servers. I’m on one of the biggest servers and the issue for me is that sitting in chat and spamming and crossing my fingers to get a whisper from a tank is just simply not fun. It adds nothing to the game.

The new lfg system is nice and all, but it’s still just adding another step to LFD for literally no reason at all.

[NineSpine]

This post right here is why I said your hypocrisy is ALMOST as bad as your logic. Comparing asking for a burger at a Chinese food place, to asking for a feature that was in wotlk to be in wotlk, is absolutely fucking brain dead.

Was the feature in wotlk at launch?

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It’s not a server population issue, well for some people it may be, but that doesn’t mean it still isn’t an issue with non dead servers. I’m on one of the biggest servers and the issue for me is that sitting in chat and spamming and crossing my fingers to get a whisper from a tank is just simply not fun. It adds nothing to the game.

The new lfg system is nice and all, but it’s still just adding another step to LFD for literally no reason at all.

The reason is because the target audience (not you) doesn't like LFD.

[Kralljin]

What other factors?

Efficiency.

If you deny that efficiency impacts player choice and makes them makes them do certain things despite not very engaging, we can end the discussion right here.
And just to be clear on that, admitting that doesn't automatically mean that most people actually dislike DF.

But that's not the same, because there isn't an alternative to choose from. World Buffs are just a binary exist/not exist. But with DF the choice isn't between dungeon finder or NO DUNGEONS.

There sure is.

You can play with or without world buffs.
You can also do dungeons with or without dungeonfinder.

Both things very binary and in both instances we all know which most people chose.
And i think we can also conclude that least in one of those instances the option chosen by most players wasn't actually the most engaging or fun.

[NineSpine]

If I'm being honest, I don't think the contentiousness is about 'when' we get it. The people who like it want it at launch (me included) and the people who don't like it don't want it left out of Wrath completely.

Similar to guild banks and dual spec. They were both features added later in their respective Xpacs, but I would prefer them both be in from the start. I don't see a good reason for keeping QOL features, that were originally added later in the expansion, from being added at the start of the Classic Xpac. Similar to how we start with end XPac class changes.

The number of people who are going to sit out wrath because LFD isn't in 3.3 is literally zero.

LFD isn't a quality of life feature. It is a fundamental gameplay system.

[Cayde69]

Was the feature in wotlk at launch?

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The reason is because the target audience (not you) doesn't like LFD.

Comment on my stuff when you actually can form an argument.

[NineSpine]

Comment on my stuff when you actually can form an argument.

I have formed an argument. You have chosen to respond with sad little gotchas rather than engaging the argument I made.

The release on the front page of mmi-champ right now, which came out during this conversation, doubles down on exactly what I have been saying this whole time. You should be embarrassed. It's like Blizzard chimed in and said I was right.

[Cayde69]

I have formed an argument. You have chosen to respond with sad little gotchas rather than engaging the argument I made.

The release on the front page of mmi-champ right now, which came out during this conversation, doubles down on exactly what I have been saying this whole time. You should be embarrassed. It's like Blizzard chimed in and said I was right.

Comment on stuff when you can form an argument.

[NineSpine]

Comment on stuff when you can form an argument.

The argument: WoW Classic, per Blizzard's own statements and actions, is targeting a core audience of people who dislike retail and prefer old school style MMOs. This audience dislikes features like LFD.

Do you have a coherent response yet? Or do you still think you are fooling everyone by providing condescension rather than a counterargument?

[Biomega]

Efficiency.

If you deny that efficiency impacts player choice and makes them makes them do certain things despite not very engaging, we can end the discussion right here.
And just to be clear on that, admitting that doesn't automatically mean that most people actually dislike DF.

But that's not my argument, at all. I'm sure efficiency is a huge factor. But I have no idea how to separate it out as a metric any more than I'd know how to separate out "fun".

People portray it as though it was easy to tell why something is popular; what I'm saying is popularity is easy to measure but REASONS are not.

I'm not even saying WHY something is popular, only that it is; it's the OTHER people who seem to have all the reasons figured out, somehow.

There sure is.

You can play with or without world buffs.
You can also do dungeons with or without dungeonfinder.

That's a false binary.

There is no alternative to world buffs. There IS an alternative to DF (manually doing dungeons).

That's a bit like saying the chance of anything happening is 50/50 because either it does or it doesn't. It just doesn't work that way, and to pretend it does is misunderstanding something very fundamental about the comparison.

And i think we can also conclude that least in one of those instances the option chosen by most players wasn't actually the most engaging or fun.

We most certainly CANNOT simply conclude that.

That's what I mean - people come in and think that it's oh-so obvious that they can tell which one is more "engaging" or more "fun". IT IS NOT.

If you think it IS such an obvious thing, please demonstrate to me how not using DF is "more fun" than using it. And I do mean DEMONSTRATE.

[NineSpine]

We most certainly CANNOT simply conclude that.

That's what I mean - people come in and think that it's oh-so obvious that they can tell which one is more "engaging" or more "fun". IT IS NOT.

If you think it IS such an obvious thing, please demonstrate to me how not using DF is "more fun" than using it. And I do mean DEMONSTRATE.

He was saying world buffs didn't make the game more fun.

[Biomega]

He was saying world buffs didn't make the game more fun.

Okay. But that, too, needs to be demonstrated.

And it's funny to bring in WBs, because even IF a comparison to DF was to be made (however flawed it is), it would be an argument FOR the existence of DF not against; because having WB was inefficient, forcing you to go through hoops if you wanted more performance. Removing them makes everything far easier and straightforward - just like DF smoothes over the dungeon experience.