Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't think group finder is bad, what is bad is that its structure incentivizes a real toxic player group to have prominence, and reduce world population. It also reduces the time spent interacting with other players in a meaningful way.

Fix by:
-2x dungeon rewards if you actually go to the instance in the world
-Limiting groups to the same server

It is a fact that the patch for launch of LFD was the peak of wow subs. The decline happened in cata. It had nothing to do with LFD. LFD never needed fixing and has been proven to be wows most popular major addition. Numbers don't lie. If people actually hated LFD then there would e been a sub crash over the 1 year content drought.

[Flarelaine]

lmfao and again, that is not an official Blizzard tool. The only person mad is you because I'm pointing out how using third party websites the back up your point is absolute garbage. Warcraft Logs is also fucking third party software. When you come back with a legitimate Blizzard made tool that shows accurate numbers, then you can claim you have the facts. Until then you just have inaccurate bullshit.

Logs may not be official Blizzard tools, but that is a cheap excuse to deny reality. Logs show real people. If there are logs about 300000 raiders, that means there are at least that many raiders - and probably more players overall.

[Ragedaug]

It is a fact that the patch for launch of LFD was the peak of wow subs. The decline happened in cata. It had nothing to do with LFD. LFD never needed fixing and has been proven to be wows most popular major addition. Numbers don't lie. If people actually hated LFD then there would e been a sub crash over the 1 year content drought.

Same thing happened in Cata. They hemorrhaged subs in 4.1 and 4.2, and finally turned it around and actually added subs in 4.3 which coincides with when they introduced raid finder.

[tomten]

You mean the 300,000 people still playing TBC Classic as it winds down?

And you speak for all of them?

[Stanelis1]

I don t get why they are removing the group finder tool considering the issue with the tool isn t its existence by itself but rather that the content and class dynamics are designed with the tool existence in mind in wotlk ("bring the player not the class").

If you remove the tool, you don t change neither the content nor the class design, meaning it is useless.

[Nak88]

We wish we had RDF but Retail premade/group finder is pretty good IMO.

[Biomega]

Their fear is that if DF is introduce, most people will use it, and there won't be hardly anyone using the LFG tool or LFG channel.

Okay, and why is that a bad thing? You're describing an effect, not giving a reason.

It's like someone asking "why is murder wrong?" and you answer with "well because then people die".

[vian]

“Until later”

Oh so you’re either one of those people who like to pretend you played classic and like to reminisce about all these “super classic” features in wow or you’re really don’t remember what actually happened at all.

Battlemasters were added after not even a month after wsg and AV were added. Wsg were added in June 2005 and masters were added in July 2005. Arathi Basin wasn’t even a battleground yet before battlemasters were introduced. One month…. One single month….

Stop with your nonsense.

Nice of you to read through the wiki, gj, but you got yourself suspended, so whatever.

[Berrabus]

I'm totally fine with a tool that puts the group together, just like the m+ works in retail.
The teleportation part to the dungeon however should never be implemented into the game.

[kamuimac]

I'm totally fine with a tool that puts the group together, just like the m+ works in retail.
The teleportation part to the dungeon however should never be implemented into the game.

some people sure love wasting their time i guess.

i see no value whatsover wasting time on flightmaster , would rather pend that time doing actual dungeons. but hey whatever floats your boat more power to you

i would just like to hear from you what value added to gameplay such wasting time has.

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Nope, not lying. Mostly been trying to get my mage into leveling dungeons, my Ret Pally into 70 dungeons, and my Fury Warrior into heroics. It's pretty rare more than 1-2 other people queued for the dungeon I want to run. I normally give up looking after 15-30 minutes. I have a guildy that recently leveled a holy priest as well, and they were able to get into dungeons. I'm not sure if they were targeting specific dungeons or just taking whatever folks were running. I can find groups more easily myself on my healer or tank toons. I do play later in the evening, so that's probably also causing an issue. However my work shift doesn't cause me problems when we have Dungeon Finder.

It's funny though that you said basically, "I have no issues, so you are a liar". Do you just talk to random folks on the internet like that, or is that how you normally talk to folks in real life as well? I mean, I'm not going to lie, it felt pretty insulting. If you meant to insult me, you did great.

I talk to others in my groups far more than any of them talk to the rest of us. So that's not a problem. I still think it's funny though that because you type, "LFxM H SL need tank" then someone replies, "invite", and you think that is socializing. That's less than saying "hi, how are you". And that's the most conversation I get from nearly everyone when I run dungeons in TBC, and somehow Dungeon Finder is going to magically cause a problem of people not talking.

I'm always one of the two that fly to the dungeon, so I don't want to be insta-teleported either, so you are wrong about that as well. I want Dungeon Finder for one reason and one reason only. I have multiple alts with many dungeon quests in their quest log that are all going to get abandoned in a couple months because it takes too long to try to find a group to run a dungeon with, or some nights, there just isn't anyone else who wants to run the dungeon I need.

You come across as hurtful. You seems to like to make wild assumptions, and apparently are often wrong...at least when it comes to reading me anyway. But yeah, I'm the anti-social one here. /facepalm

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NineSpines answered this earlier. Their fear is that if DF is introduce, most people will use it, and there won't be hardly anyone using the LFG tool or LFG channel. Even then, I can only think of a couple reasons why you want to force everyone to use that tool which is NineSpines either sells dungeon runs and business dries up if people can easily group with each other or NineSpines likes having more control over who they bring to their party.

the reason is obvoious - if lfd woudl be in game they wouldbt be able to just like in retail ensure that people who they bring into team can boost them .


i mean have you played m+ lately ? like 95% of 15-17 groups have at least 1 players with like 1k score and garbage gear being boosted .

want example ? i have 272 guardian druid but i was still missing score for soa tyrniacal - so i yesterday applied to like 30 , 16-18 groups and had to leave every single of them because each one had like 1k score player in there - before i found one that wasnt boostinganyone.

they want exacklythe same thing in olk classic. ability to be boosted to to sell boosts (badge runs) - that whythey will fight to the death defending failed system . and yes it failed - both classic and tbc dungeons were unplayable 2 weeks after launch becaue only boost groups were around.

[storn206]

some people sure love wasting their time i guess.

Why not quit playing the game if you consider playing it a waste of time?

[NineSpine]

And you speak for all of them?

Blizzard does. That's why they have explicitly stated who these players are and what they want.

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You really need to work on parsing people's statements better. It would mean they value having BiS gear more than the acquisition process - which doesn't mean that's a good thing for the long-term health of the game or anything like that. I'm only saying that if given the choice between A and B, if there's an overwhelming preference for A then people value A more than B (and vice versa) - self-evidently and empirically verifiable. What OTHER implications this may have beyond the observable fact of the choice and preference is a different discussion, and usually requires a lot more additional work to properly assess.

You just admitted that preferences like this don't inform us about "the long term health of the game or anything like that", so why did you waste our time appealing to it?

And yet they ARE offering boosts even in Classics, because many people want an option like that. Even in Classics.

But your argument immediately turns toxic when you assert the reason as being "to make it more modern". That's not in evidence in any way.

Also: it's funny to take that line when removing the DF is actually a CHANGE from the original.

Now it is "toxic" to say that LFR is a more modern MMO paradigm than not having LFR? I guess history is now "toxic" to the delusional. We wouldn't want to hurt your precious feelings with something like a fact.

That's a trivial statement though. You're PICKING a preference to make the standard for everyone; the people whose preference is using the DF get their preference taken away.

What I want to know is the "why" behind THAT. And just going "well different people like different things" is a non-answer. It's AVOIDING an answer.

Do you go into restaurants and start screaming "WHY ARE YOU FORCING PREFERENCES ON ME" because they don't have your personal favorite dish on the menu?

Yes, and you can play DS while they play something else.

Now you come in and take their game away, so they can only play DS. They ask "why would you do that?" And your answer is "different people like different things idk what to tell you buddy".

See how much sense that makes?

No, this is more like From Software said "Hey we made Dark Souls 2 for people that like Dark Souls!" and you somehow interpreted that as something has been taken away from you because they didn't make a game for you instead. The idea that every time someone makes something for someone else, not for you, that you have been slighted and robbed of something is deranged.

And you know who that is and what their preference is because...? Magical faeries whispering secret knowledge in your ear?

You're fine to make such a claim. All I'm asking for is to back it up with more than "trust me on this, I know things", or "what's good for the Vanilla is good for the WotLK, and the reason it's good is because that's how it used to be in the beginning".

I'm backing it up with Blizzard saying so. They have made it painfully clear, over and over, their design philosophy and target audience for classic. I don't know how many times they need to repeat themselves before you understand it.

[Greyvax]

LFD was a good addition because of how badge farming worked. Could crank through a lot of dungeons quickly to get lots of badges.

However, anyone who hasn't played retail in a while, the group finder tool is actually pretty efficient for assembling groups quickly. The more time consuming part will be flying to the dungeons.

[NineSpine]

NineSpines answered this earlier. Their fear is that if DF is introduce, most people will use it, and there won't be hardly anyone using the LFG tool or LFG channel. Even then, I can only think of a couple reasons why you want to force everyone to use that tool which is NineSpines either sells dungeon runs and business dries up if people can easily group with each other or NineSpines likes having more control over who they bring to their party.

Because classic is for people who like forming groups manually, rather than using automated tools. It's telling that you have to keep trying to invent conspiracies and dig out ulterior motives. Different people like different things. Classic is for an audience that doesn't like automated grouping tools. Retail is for an audience that likes automated grouping tools. That's all there is to it.

I only group and play with friends, so it doesn't impact me either way. I don't particularly care about LFD. I just have this thing called "the ability to listen and to read" and I can see what Blizzard says and can see who they are trying to appeal to and why they are trying to appeal to them. I can recognize, like a normal and well adjusted human adult, that my preferences are just my preferences and some decisions are made to appease other people who think differently from me. Blizzard has made it very, very clear that they consider the core audience for classic to be the types of players that dislike these types of tools.

Here is a great example. World buffs were absolute trash. They were horrible. I hated them and they ruined a lot of classic for me. However, Blizzard was pretty emphatic that their design goal at the time was to treat classic as a museum and avoid changes as much as possible. They wanted to appeal to people for whom fidelity to the original source material was incredibly important. While I personally would have preferred they removed world buffs, I recognized the design goals and the audience they were trying to appease and I made peace with that, because as I said, I am a normal and well adjusted human adult that can appreciate that I wasn't the target audience they were going for.

Since then, their design goals have changed and are more in line with what I want, which is great for me, but bad for the demographic for whom fidelity was the top priority. I get why they are upset that there are some changes now, because their PREFERENCES are different from mine, but unfortunately for them Blizzard changed their idea of who the core audience is. This isn't complicated. It doesn't require all kinds of conspiracies and shit. It's very, very, very simple:

You. Are. Not. The. Target. Audience.

[Ragedaug]

Okay, and why is that a bad thing? You're describing an effect, not giving a reason.

It's like someone asking "why is murder wrong?" and you answer with "well because then people die".

That's actually a good point. I speculated the reason, but as far as I can remember NineSpines didn't give the reason it was bad.

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Why not quit playing the game if you consider playing it a waste of time?

We have and we do. Always surprised me that other players desire folks to quit the game instead of asking Blizzard to make it more enjoyable. The irony is that Blizzard is listening to you as we continue to watch subs drops.

[NineSpine]

That's actually a good point. I speculated the reason, but as far as I can remember NineSpines didn't give the reason it was bad.

It is neither good or bad. It is a matter of preference. That's the point you absolutely refuse to understand.

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We have and we do. Always surprised me that other players desire folks to quit the game instead of asking Blizzard to make it more enjoyable. The irony is that Blizzard is listening to you as we continue to watch subs drops.

Classic subs are clearly very, very strong. That isn't where the problem is.

[Woods123]

That's actually a good point. I speculated the reason, but as far as I can remember NineSpines didn't give the reason it was bad.

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We have and we do. Always surprised me that other players desire folks to quit the game instead of asking Blizzard to make it more enjoyable. The irony is that Blizzard is listening to you as we continue to watch subs drops.

Not going to lie I love the changes they are planning for the new dungeons. To me, it seems they are listening at least a little bit. Keeping dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion in order to keep the replayability up seems like a really really nice change. Making naxx a little harder is also a decent change, I don’t think it needs to be super difficult but the release nax was an actual joke, I remember farming it in nothing but TBC gear.

I still don’t see the issue with LFD tho.

[NineSpine]

Not going to lie I love the changes they are planning for the new dungeons. To me, it seems they are listening at least a little bit. Keeping dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion in order to keep the replayability up seems like a really really nice change. Making naxx a little harder is also a decent change, I don’t think it needs to be super difficult but the release nax was an actual joke, I remember farming it in nothing but TBC gear.

I still don’t see the issue with LFD tho.

I don't think anyone said there is an issue with LFD. LFD just conflicts with the core pillar of the classic design that they laid out.

[Ragedaug]

Do you go into restaurants and start screaming "WHY ARE YOU FORCING PREFERENCES ON ME" because they don't have your personal favorite dish on the menu?

No, when Taco Bell told me that their target audience doesn't want Double Decker Tacos and Beefy Nacho Grillers, so they removed them from the menu, I stopped going there. I didn't scream then, I'm not screaming now. I'm saying, "here's what makes the game fun for me". I do so in the hope that Blizzard listens, because I enjoy playing WoW when it's fun for me. If Blizzard decides they don't want to do that, and the game is no longer fun for me, I will stop paying my sub and will play something else.

WoW was fun for me from the end or Vanilla all the way until the middle of WoD. I was subbed the whole time. But then Blizzard made changes that made it not fun for me, so I stopped playing. Each XPac, I've enjoyed getting to max level, but then the end-game farming was not fun so I've unsubscribed. So far I've enjoyed Classic Vanilla & TBC. If they decide to change Wrath to make it more difficult to find a dungeon and more difficult to complete a dungeon, there's a good chance I'll stop having fun. So that's my only point to posting. I'm not screaming. I'm not demanding Blizzard do my bidding. I'm just saying, "this is what makes the game fun for me". Then it's up to Blizzard to decide what to do. If I'm not their target audience, that's OK. There's lots of other games I can play.

[NineSpine]

No, when Taco Bell told me that their target audience doesn't want Double Decker Tacos and Beefy Nacho Grillers, so they removed them from the menu, I stopped going there. I didn't scream then, I'm not screaming now. I'm saying, "here's what makes the game fun for me". I do so in the hope that Blizzard listens, because I enjoy playing WoW when it's fun for me. If Blizzard decides they don't want to do that, and the game is no longer fun for me, I will stop paying my sub and will play something else.

WoW was fun for me from the end or Vanilla all the way until the middle of WoD. I was subbed the whole time. But then Blizzard made changes that made it not fun for me, so I stopped playing. Each XPac, I've enjoyed getting to max level, but then the end-game farming was not fun so I've unsubscribed. So far I've enjoyed Classic Vanilla & TBC. If they decide to change Wrath to make it more difficult to find a dungeon and more difficult to complete a dungeon, there's a good chance I'll stop having fun. So that's my only point to posting. I'm not screaming. I'm not demanding Blizzard do my bidding. I'm just saying, "this is what makes the game fun for me". Then it's up to Blizzard to decide what to do. If I'm not their target audience, that's OK. There's lots of other games I can play.

There is a very big difference between these two things:

1. Stating you have a preference and advocating for it.
2. Arguing that your preference is objectively superior and denying the reality of how it impacts other people with different preferences, and then insisting everyone with a different preference has secret ulterior motives.

You keep doing 2 while insisting you are doing 1.