What if the Horde quests were written like Alliance quests ?

[DatToffer]

Today I learned that the Alliance perspective and references to Horde fan behavior is "crazy talk". How dare people paying for a two faction game expect that the factions are treated equally!

You know it's mostly just the same thing since the beginning of BFA.

That's what I consider crazy talk :

Yes it have some horde bias, Horde player wanna be savage, monster races because its cool, but don't wanna be evil at the same time, going to rampage time to time and don't wanna be accountable for it and they don't. Want everything, and pay nothing.
Only the Taurens are not evil race and maybe the trolls but they are more grey, sadly they become toothless.

Generalization over the playerbase mentality.

And nothing stops Blizz from elevating other Horde characters to prominence... If they stop spending time to ruin Alliance stuff or mutilate another Alliance race they may find time to put more Horde characters into a spotlight that is not a pyre full of still alive Alliance civilians and children.

But they love you too much to stop doing this. You see the flawed circle here? Their absolute unconditional adoration for you ruins your faction as much as their disregard and hate of Alliance ruins ours.

"The writing team loves your faction so much they are ruining it." is a novelty

Wrong. They saw backlash about being CALLED evil. They didnt saw genocide, war crimes and etc as evil. They want to do all that (and more, good old rape camps for draenei say "hy") but be called great heroes and not be inconvenienced by that in the slightest.

Screaming about the warcrimes of a fictional faction more vehemently than you'd see everyone talk about the warcrime of an actual faction.
It's like the fight of their life, I wonder if they ask for no pickles with the same passion.

Logically, what we should have seen is a mass exodus of many Horde races from the Horde to the Alliance (the "last great mortal superpower left on Azeroth" according to Blizzard), after MoP.

Assumptions as to how the story should have gone from a one-sided perspective.

This is why I call these guys emotional wrecks. Vlad doesn't even play the game anymore and is on the same rant since 2018.
They were so personally attacked by the shit writing that they are taking it out on basically everyone they meet. At this point I don't even know if they want a formal apology from Blizzard. Or from the Horde playerbase. But they bring it in such a personal level you can hardly believe they just want things to get better. It's like the game was ruined for them but they could never move on and we're stuck as their breakup ice cream.

I do have my own triggers though. I could rant for hours about how Jarod is a shit character if you'd let me. But it's not that much of a compulsion.

[Aucald]

This thread is getting off-track with generalizations and interpersonal arguments. Let's return to the topic of discussion as opposed to the broader and unsolvable issue of perceived faction bias.

[VladlTutushkin]

You know it's mostly just the same thing since the beginning of BFA.

That's what I consider crazy talk :



Generalization over the playerbase mentality.



"The writing team loves your faction so much they are ruining it." is a novelty



Screaming about the warcrimes of a fictional faction more vehemently than you'd see everyone talk about the warcrime of an actual faction.
It's like the fight of their life, I wonder if they ask for no pickles with the same passion.



Assumptions as to how the story should have gone from a one-sided perspective.

This is why I call these guys emotional wrecks. Vlad doesn't even play the game anymore and is on the same rant since 2018.
They were so personally attacked by the shit writing that they are taking it out on basically everyone they meet. At this point I don't even know if they want a formal apology from Blizzard. Or from the Horde playerbase. But they bring it in such a personal level you can hardly believe they just want things to get better. It's like the game was ruined for them but they could never move on and we're stuck as their breakup ice cream.

I do have my own triggers though. I could rant for hours about how Jarod is a shit character if you'd let me. But it's not that much of a compulsion.

Oh trust me, love can do as much damage as hatred. Think of parents who endlessly spoil their child, buying them all the candy and toys they ask for, never teaching them to behave and etc, in the end you have a spoiled brat with diabetes and awful social skills. Thats the Horde’s situation. Blizz were stuffing you with junk food for so long that now, when “doctor came back with a diagnose” they go into panic mode and put you on a oatmeal porridge diet and water (Council, Calia, so on).

Its not quantum physics really, and not some deep psychology, its basic human reactions and since Blizz writers are a bunch of compulsory, lazy hacks they only act on their most basic reactions. So thats why they “swing” so wildly back and forth and seemingly add things in a panicked attempts to “fix” the plot when they notice its gone to shit.

Also so far the only person to actually expect a written apology from Blizz, sent hate mail to Blizz and suggested to travel to Irvine and attack their office was… Erevien/Garzrug who is 100% horde, as horde as cactus juice.

[Grazrug]

Today I learned that the Alliance perspective and references to Horde fan behavior is "crazy talk". How dare people paying for a two faction game expect that the factions are treated equally!

If the factions were equal the alliance would have lost at least a few dozen leaders just like the Horde did. But because Blizzard hates the Horde and loves the alliance the Alliance remains unharmed from any problems. Alliance bias is real and people like yourself and Vlad are the perfect proof of that. Check your privilige.

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This thread is getting off-track with generalizations and interpersonal arguments. Let's return to the topic of discussion as opposed to the broader and unsolvable issue of perceived faction bias.

If we want to fix the faction inequality the problems needs to be tackled. The Horde'S major problem is that all their important characters die off like flies in masses while the alliance gains one victory after another. THe alliance community needs to acknowledge this and helps the community in making the scales even.

[Feanoro]

If the factions were equal the alliance would have lost at least a few dozen leaders just like the Horde did.

Or if you read a few posts back, the real reason is the old leaders were incompatible with the WC3 whitewashing of the Horde.

But because Blizzard hates the Horde and loves the alliance the Alliance remains unharmed from any problems.

Emphasis mine. The only thing such a ludicrous statement deserves is:

Alliance bias is real and people like yourself and Vlad are the perfect proof of that.

How dare there be people who like the Alliance! This is supposed to be a one faction game!

Check your privilige.

Meme harder.

[Grazrug]

Or if you read a few posts back, the real reason is the old leaders were incompatible with the WC3 whitewashing of the Horde.

Emphasis mine. The only thing such a ludicrous statement deserves is:




How dare there be people who like the Alliance! This is supposed to be a one faction game!

Meme harder.

No. Those leaders died because of alliance bias. Blizzard hates the Horde and wanted to make sure alliance players can feel good about themselves when they can put filthy Horde scum down. That is how the lore is written. Just because you are in denial about your prviiliges doesn't mean it isn't true. Blue players are the reason why the game is bad.

[Feanoro]

Blue players are the reason why the game is bad.

Ah, so we're back to your conspiracy theory that Alliance players somehow influence development. Strange, if that's true you'd think there wouldn't be Alliance cities being blown off the map, Alliance races being massacred, Alliance being shown over and over as losers until a victory that only exists in a grudging comment in a book, Alliance leaders routinely forgetting their powers or the Horde being the enemy, and so on.

WC3 decided the Horde would break with the Old Horde as evil (the original manuals for WC1 describes the Horde as the forces of hell), so the Old Horde's leaders couldn't be part of the new Horde.

Since WoW didn't even exist at the time, there were no Alliance players, so they could hardly have influenced this.


Anyway, since you actually use "check your privilege" about a video game, I doubt there's much point in bringing reality into this.

[VladlTutushkin]

You know it's mostly just the same thing since the beginning of BFA.

That's what I consider crazy talk :



Generalization over the playerbase mentality.



"The writing team loves your faction so much they are ruining it." is a novelty



Screaming about the warcrimes of a fictional faction more vehemently than you'd see everyone talk about the warcrime of an actual faction.
It's like the fight of their life, I wonder if they ask for no pickles with the same passion.



Assumptions as to how the story should have gone from a one-sided perspective.

This is why I call these guys emotional wrecks. Vlad doesn't even play the game anymore and is on the same rant since 2018.
They were so personally attacked by the shit writing that they are taking it out on basically everyone they meet. At this point I don't even know if they want a formal apology from Blizzard. Or from the Horde playerbase. But they bring it in such a personal level you can hardly believe they just want things to get better. It's like the game was ruined for them but they could never move on and we're stuck as their breakup ice cream.

I do have my own triggers though. I could rant for hours about how Jarod is a shit character if you'd let me. But it's not that much of a compulsion.

Also case in point - look at him go down below.

[qwerty123456]

If the factions were equal the alliance would have lost at least a few dozen leaders just like the Horde did. But because Blizzard hates the Horde and loves the alliance the Alliance remains unharmed from any problems. Alliance bias is real and people like yourself and Vlad are the perfect proof of that. Check your privilige.

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If we want to fix the faction inequality the problems needs to be tackled. The Horde'S major problem is that all their important characters die off like flies in masses while the alliance gains one victory after another. THe alliance community needs to acknowledge this and helps the community in making the scales even.

The Alliance lost multiple cities in Teldrasil and tons of people plus all the cities and settlements the Horde ran through to get to Teldrasil. The only losses the Horde ever has is it's leaders hell the Alliance even gives back territory anytime they "win". The Alliance also loses major characters just not really faction leaders.

[Grazrug]

The Alliance lost multiple cities in Teldrasil and tons of people plus all the cities and settlements the Horde ran through to get to Teldrasil. The only losses the Horde ever has is it's leaders hell the Alliance even gives back territory anytime they "win". The Alliance also loses major characters just not really faction leaders.

Zones don't matter apart from leveling. What matters is having established lore characters on your side and the alliance has quite an army of them at their disposal. Horde lost them all in Bfa and MoP without compensation.

[VladlTutushkin]

Zones don't matter apart from leveling. What matters is having established lore characters on your side and the alliance has quite an army of them at their disposal. Horde lost them all in Bfa and MoP without compensation.

Well then, Blizz could have just increased amount of XP horde got for one quest and do not expand their zones in Cata! If zones dont matter outside of leveling.

[Grazrug]

Well then, Blizz could have just increased amount of XP horde got for one quest and do not expand their zones in Cata! If zones dont matter outside of leveling.

Alliance had much more zones.Cataclysm happened because Blizzard wanted to make the factions equal. They had all of Khaz Modan and Stormwind for themselves. Forsaken claiming Hillsbrad and Silverpine was just the logical step of their lore. And it should stay that way.

[VladlTutushkin]

Alliance had much more zones.Cataclysm happened because Blizzard wanted to make the factions equal. They had all of Khaz Modan and Stormwind for themselves. Forsaken claiming Hillsbrad and Silverpine was just the logical step of their lore. And it should stay that way.

You yourself said that zones only matter for leveling. So if they just made Horde quests give more XP to compensate for less quests that would have fixed everything, right?

[Varodoc]

If Horde quests were written like Alliance quests...

Then, during the climax of a world war, as the Alliance is heroically leading a last stand of rebellion against tyranny, the Horde would be secluded with spying on some tents outside of Stormwind using a robotic kitten:




The Alliance would be triumphant in war, as their enemies would burn and their cities would be razed to ash. Instead, the Horde would be scrambling to save as many burning civilians as they can, knowing that the majority cannot be saved and that their way of life has been destroyed, knowing they lost:




The Alliance would have the choice to take their own path. To choose whether to remain loyal to their faction, or perhaps to side with a more rebellious side. Meanwhile, the Horde would be stuck with one singular path predetermined by Blizzard:




Let's be real, what we are looking at is a clear, undeniable, and objective bias that Blizzard had towards the Horde quest writing. They literally bent the rules of the game and introduced a Telltales system ("Zekhan will remember this") for the first time in the game, they did something unprecedented, just to give Horde players a choice.

Meanwhile, Kul Tiran players have no choice between helping Daelin's murderer free Cairne's son or just refusing to help them. Night elf players have no choice between helping Tyrande free Darkshore or help Anduin fight for Kul Tiras, a human kingdom they should not care about.

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Or if you read a few posts back, the real reason is the old leaders were incompatible with the WC3 whitewashing of the Horde.

Emphasis mine. The only thing such a ludicrous statement deserves is:
.

The fact that the Horde literally ROUNDED UP the civilians of a settlement in Ashenvale is some Galactic Empire level of horror.

I don't know how familiar you are with Star Wars, but in several scenes and videogames we see the Empire literally rounding up the civilians of a given settlement to torture/interrogate/execute them. That's why the Empire is so horrible. They have no problem with systematically hurting or slaughtering innocents.

The Horde is literally the Empire of WOW lol, they literally round up the innocent civilians of a peaceful settlement and mercilessly do horrible things to them.

[Jackstraw]

If Horde quests were like Alliance quests, all the fucked up stuff they'd make would be undone on screen or off screen by someone going through loops to justify what they just did.

The Alliance, on the other hand, would be accused of double standards. One of their most beloved characters ever would turn on its head on a whim and go on a rampage ultimately contradicting everything it stood for. Said character would then be put down or aside, as the cast of characters left gets thinner and thinner to further screentime for a plot of no consequence, with choices of no consequence that ultimately get forgotten.

Also one High King would die to a trash minion.

If Horde raids were like Alliance raids, one of the oldest Alliance names in the lore would be killed in the second tier of the expansion. Permanently.
Thrall would then be the final boss of said raid, styling on the whole fight and would get out mostly unscathed. Much like Gallywix, present in the raid and holder of a fight, responsible for the good initial success of said raid and avoiding ultimate death.

If the Horde were like the Alliance... oh that I don't need to imagine, we are getting there. And that's exactly what's been asked of numerous times.

The Alliance never wanted to have any kind of depth, be placed in front of any moral ambiguities, and vehemently complained when anybody blue did anything remotely bad.
The Horde then became the only possible vector of storytelling, and even that is not good enough.

[Varodoc]

If Horde quests were like Alliance quests, all the fucked up stuff they'd make would be undone on screen or off screen by someone going through loops to justify what they just did.

Yeah. Like when the Purge of Dalaran was immediately forgotten and the Blood elves still rejoined the Alliance... Oh no wait... but it was forgotten by the time of BfA right? That's right the Sunreavers totally helped Jaina free Baine. Oh wait...

But actually I do agree, I remember the time when Tyrande being """"antagonistic""" towards the Nightborne ended up fine because it totally didn't cost the Alliance a major foothold in the Broken Isles just because Tyrande made Thalyssra salty. We're so lucky that the Nightborne forgave Tyrande for her "mean words"!

[DatToffer]

If Horde quests were written like Alliance quests...

Did you at least have fun making this ?

[VladlTutushkin]

If Horde quests were written like Alliance quests...

Then, during the climax of a world war, as the Alliance is heroically leading a last stand of rebellion against tyranny, the Horde would be secluded with spying on some tents outside of Stormwind using a robotic kitten:




The Alliance would be triumphant in war, as their enemies would burn and their cities would be razed to ash. Instead, the Horde would be scrambling to save as many burning civilians as they can, knowing that the majority cannot be saved and that their way of life has been destroyed, knowing they lost:




The Alliance would have the choice to take their own path. To choose whether to remain loyal to their faction, or perhaps to side with a more rebellious side. Meanwhile, the Horde would be stuck with one singular path predetermined by Blizzard:




Let's be real, what we are looking at is a clear, undeniable, and objective bias that Blizzard had towards the Horde quest writing. They literally bent the rules of the game and introduced a Telltales system ("Zekhan will remember this") for the first time in the game, they did something unprecedented, just to give Horde players a choice.

Meanwhile, Kul Tiran players have no choice between helping Daelin's murderer free Cairne's son or just refusing to help them. Night elf players have no choice between helping Tyrande free Darkshore or help Anduin fight for Kul Tiras, a human kingdom they should not care about.

- - - Updated - - -



The fact that the Horde literally ROUNDED UP the civilians of a settlement in Ashenvale is some Galactic Empire level of horror.

I don't know how familiar you are with Star Wars, but in several scenes and videogames we see the Empire literally rounding up the civilians of a given settlement to torture/interrogate/execute them. That's why the Empire is so horrible. They have no problem with systematically hurting or slaughtering innocents.

The Horde is literally the Empire of WOW lol, they literally round up the innocent civilians of a peaceful settlement and mercilessly do horrible things to them.

And its not the first time they did it.

All the way back in Cata Horde specifically hunted down fleeing civilians in Ashenvale to make “an example” from their unburied corpses, and in another settlement used dark shamans to turn water elementals from nearby lake mad and send them to massacre population.

Basically they were killing civilians from the get go, and for no other reason then to make it look gruesome.

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If Horde quests were like Alliance quests, all the fucked up stuff they'd make would be undone on screen or off screen by someone going through loops to justify what they just did.

The Alliance, on the other hand, would be accused of double standards. One of their most beloved characters ever would turn on its head on a whim and go on a rampage ultimately contradicting everything it stood for. Said character would then be put down or aside, as the cast of characters left gets thinner and thinner to further screentime for a plot of no consequence, with choices of no consequence that ultimately get forgotten.

Also one High King would die to a trash minion.

If Horde raids were like Alliance raids, one of the oldest Alliance names in the lore would be killed in the second tier of the expansion. Permanently.
Thrall would then be the final boss of said raid, styling on the whole fight and would get out mostly unscathed. Much like Gallywix, present in the raid and holder of a fight, responsible for the good initial success of said raid and avoiding ultimate death.

If the Horde were like the Alliance... oh that I don't need to imagine, we are getting there. And that's exactly what's been asked of numerous times.

The Alliance never wanted to have any kind of depth, be placed in front of any moral ambiguities, and vehemently complained when anybody blue did anything remotely bad.
The Horde then became the only possible vector of storytelling, and even that is not good enough.

Remind me the last time when Horde’s actions actually had consequences? I mean outside shifting all the blame on one person.

When neutral races turned away from the Horde because of their cruel reputation or penchant for war crimes? When organisations like Cenarion Circle or Silver Hand put a ban on Horde membership and sent aid to Alliance specifically? When big neutral characters went Alliance because of Horde’s actions?

Even Khadgar who literally promised to join the Alliance if Horde harms Teldrassil remained neutral despite that.

Only time you got some backlash was when Tyrande was rude to you, lol.

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Did you at least have fun making this ?

You know, i always wanted to ask. Do you think, genuinely, that this is bad/fucked up that majority of Alliance players just straight up stopped having fun in game? Like, its entirely messed up as far as i can see when game becomes so bad that half the playerbase feels more and more depressed when they look at their faction.

[sam86]

And i will always respond with the simple fact that horde fans were screaming their throats dry whining about Calia, traitors, Council, and plethora of other things from "villain batting" to "not enough babies eaten on screen".
"Defile the capital" with zero consequences or lasting damage. Fucken game even refuses to remind that Orgrimmar was once raided, referencing it in total of TWO dialogues, one of which being comedic (Gazlowe and Khadgar) and leaving a single plaque in the tunnel leading to warlock zone of Orgrimmar which 99% of players will never see because of how it is placed.
In return your ass will be beaten like a drum in orchestra over several zones, expansions and story lines, and several of your races will be beaten into the dirt while Alliance egregiously dunks on them.

Also goblins IMMEDIATELY got Azshara as their new capital, with a huge Horde symbol carved into it and a huge head of Gallywix on a mountaint. What worgen got? Shit nothing and a village in Blasted Lands nobody even remembers about.

And when you "win" (after gruesome, infuriating, ignoble struggle which only shows you as weak and impotent at war) you will not demand ANYTHING but rather sign off more zones to Alliance and offer concessions because thats surely what a "winner" does.

and where exactly can horde defile ur city temp even? where is the equal to SoO on horde side? no matter how u twist it, u at least actually can do that
or u crying over deathwing destruction during cata that already got removed?
didn't know u lvl a new toon weekly, u know, like exactly what thousands do weekly farming old raids for items and transmog, heck u can literally do them once on a character while u can defile our capital as much as ur heart content every single week for rest of wow history
did u really compare a weekly activity with literally a single time use activity (quest)? do u even know what was cata biggest problem when it was released?
Again what capital? Gallywix villa is a capital? the quest zone hub in Azshara? doesn't that turn many quest hub zones to 'capitals' like draenei HD spaceship etc
If u count that as capital then i really don't know how many 'capitals' exist in wow, for either sides, at least count a capital when it has a bank and portals, like Boralus/Zul'Dazar (which btw, was also raided too!)
Or do u count we dare to harm Jaina equal to flat out killing one of biggest troll figures in warcraft history by your hands?
And in end you won, period, u get to enjoy weekly while we at most get some quests that u totally skip since ages (does anyone even lvl in cata zones with the far better WoD zones? fastest lvl exp, not to mention quest quality-wise BFA zones are honestly amazing, I loved them even as alliance, only drawback alliance zones didn't feel connected, I loved Boralus)

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Remind me the last time when Horde’s actions actually had consequences?

the only next step left is to literally delete horde
remind me last time horde won anything, or even kept a leader, heck our ex-warchief wiped on trash while ur high king needed a world boss raid and still won

[DatToffer]

You know, i always wanted to ask. Do you think, genuinely, that this is bad/fucked up that majority of Alliance players just straight up stopped having fun in game? Like, its entirely messed up as far as i can see when game becomes so bad that half the playerbase feels more and more depressed when they look at their faction.

I find it sad and also understandable. Anyone I know who cared about the lore feels the fracture and this complete disconnection. Not much have the patience to dive into the bullshit to find some pearls of fun anymore.

I am mostly baffled by the inability to move on and the pugnacity of the disgruntled players and ex-players when it comes to tear each other down. But also by how much of a personal level people take the story's events.