Is it time to end gear gatekeeping?

[Noxina]

Legion was like this. You still wanted to raid previous tiers for a chance at TF versions of tier or certain trinkets. And people kept raiding older raids up to the final patch for legiondary chances, hidden appearances and even quests. I think it's good for the game if you have some reason to still do older raids and is even better when power scaling make those runs fairly relaxed.

Having to raid previous tiers in hope of a good titanforge was literal cancer and killed off more guilds than I can count. It's a bad system, and its a reason it got trashed.

[VinceVega]

I will never understand why the same people that say that iLvl is not needed and doesn't matter are the people who want max. gear WQs...

Seriously though. A good gear progression is just a staple of RPGs. And you did not fail the game just because you cannot get max level gear in a month.

So what do people actually want?

1. remove gear completly... honeestly sounds boring as fuck. I like power progression via gear. Games without it tend to be bland for me. At least RPGs. A shooter... i don't care.

2. Make gear easily aquired? Lets say you get mythic raiding gear from every world quest or get the gear as fast as with raiding/mythic+/pvp doing whatever.... i rather have no gear at all then because it has no worth anymore. But i would probably not care because i would not play the game anymore.

Then there is the inevetable follow up quesion. People always say in these threads "gear doesn't matter" "why do you care" and so on.
Why does it matter to you then that someone has better gear because he put in the work?
You don't really need it as outside of endgame you can easily do everything in quest greens. You get nearly every transgmog anyway and the endgame recolors one expansion later. They are only recolors as blizz are not doing an extra set anymore because people complained that we had.... too much transmog?

Titanforging... mh... im am ambivalent tbh. I liked to sometimes get something ont op but at thge same time it was annoying knowing, that a trinket from a previous tier was so much better if it titanforged than anything from the current one. But i could have lived with it if poeple liked it. (people onyl ever complained about it)

Gear progression is a core gameplay cycle of wow and basically any MMO. Wow is a bit more endgame focused than other MMOs. And Blizz likes it that way. They have the numbers. You don't. Even just taking the numbers from raider.io rankings gives much higher mythic raider numbers than poeple want to make you belive int hese threads.

Wow never was anything but an endgame focused gear progression game. Stop trying to make it into FF14 or something.
Play FF14 or something if you want that. Every game fills its niche.

[8bithamster]

So people want exactly the same gear, as people who put in more effort?

"Hey I did 20 World Quests I deserve exactly the same gear as a team who wants to get 20 people together and clear difficult bosses or that team that does Battlegrounds. They put in more coordination, teamwork, effort etc. But hey! I DESERVE IT!"

[Akka]

And conversely if you're just starting out, you have to do 3 tiers of raids to be caught up rather than just 1.
I'm glad we don't have the TBC system

You mean you have actual content to do rather than just skip everything and have every characters just do the same raid constantly ? Sounds far better than "only content is last patch".
TBC system is vastly superior. Relevant content is the whole expansion rather than one raid.

[kamuimac]

Sure, if you get a single piece from every run (not happening) and you space it out over 4 weeks so you get 4 pieces for "free" from your vault, it's going to take you 11 or 12 M15s to get fully geared in +15 gear depending on whether you use one weapon or two. That's 1.8 million gold, or ~$170 USD. It's harder to earn $170 of disposable income than it is to complete world quests, so yes, 100% they're more deserving. Of course, the maths only gets more ridiculous when you factor in drop rates and duplicate items, but you're interested in being right rather than being proven wrong so you'll ignore that.

As someone who only does world quests and is a "casual", and yet still wants gear, they should really be thankful that the chance to be boosted even exists.

The fact remains that if you complete more challenging content, your character should be better than other people's. The existence of boosting doesn't undermine that in any way, much like the existence of professional sportspeople making more money than doctors doesn't invalidate those doctors being paid more than entry-level workers.

The answer to your asinine thread topic isn't to eliminate the gear ladder, it's to eliminate boosting and ensure that only people who are actually good enough and make the commitment to completing the content get the rewards.

some of my chars have less then 10 timed +15s and are 270+ . secret is simple - do 1 dungeon a week for GV. over span of 4-5 months it gives immense resoults as even with some doubled drops 16-20 GVs give you a lot of gear. just do +12 and higher since first week of tier. its super eficient when you do +18 on all chars week before new season starts as then you start from +15 from week 1

yes it is that simple. if you just play the game

only downside is your score is trash . but when you run with guild score doesnt matter,

[potis]

You mean you have actual content to do rather than just skip everything and have every characters just do the same raid constantly ? Sounds far better than "only content is last patch".
TBC system is vastly superior. Relevant content is the whole expansion rather than one raid.

Again, people with 0 knowledge think they get an opinion.

The 99% when TBC was active was raiding Karazhan for 2 years, stop acting like you understand game systems that are from a different period.

The systems changed because the 99% is incapable of getting better at the game therefor its easier to gear reset them every patch and give them free gear, rather than expecting them to learn to play, same time when a 1% player comes back, he needs 2 weeks to gear up and doesnt need a whole guild to do old pointless content they already did 100 times.

The system was terrible and it was killed off for this very reason, cause the players dont improve either way, and it only punishes those that want to improve.

"YEAH BUT I AM HAVING SO MUCH FUN PLAYING CONTENT THATS DESIGNED TO BE PLAYED WITH 500MS 15 YEARS AFTER SO MY OPINION MATTERS"

[Coldkil]

If it is cheap, expendable, and is relatively easy to do for mythic raiders/plus'ers, and high end pvp'ers - then why do you need world/daily quest max ilvl gear? go clear that mythic raid and m+, do some high end pvp.

Because in the end Blizzard has to develop new catch up mechanics otherwise alts and people who don't play regularly will just have an harder time. I agree that people don't need Mythic ilvl gear to do world quests, but then they don't need it to do 15s yet they're rewarded with a weekly 278.

It's exactly why people do M+, because it's much easier/faster than doing raids and you get better rewards.

I am fine with WQ giving out stuff like 15s ilvl loot (upgradable with currency up to 272, exactly how M+ work) but it needs to be staggered over time. Obviously it would be shit if first week we get that kind of loot for killing 10 mobs, but once you're 3 months in the patch, who cares.

The plus is that you don't even need to invent everytime some sort of catch up because it would be baked in the game constantly.

[Biomega]

The problem, as always, is that gear is pretty much the only progression system.

Of course casuals don't NEED mythic raid ilvl gear, but if gear is all there is to progress on, it's no surprise that they'd want more than the stuff they get handed for free from the welfare sources. Not because they need that gear, but because that's the only way to improve anything of substance about your character.

What we really need is more horizontal progression systems that aren't just gear-based, or even character-power based. Something for casuals to work towards that isn't just some real or imagined goal of "getting heroic/mythic raid ready".

[potis]

The problem, as always, is that gear is pretty much the only progression system.

Of course casuals don't NEED mythic raid ilvl gear, but if gear is all there is to progress on, it's no surprise that they'd want more than the stuff they get handed for free from the welfare sources. Not because they need that gear, but because that's the only way to improve anything of substance about your character.

What we really need is more horizontal progression systems that aren't just gear-based, or even character-power based. Something for casuals to work towards that isn't just some real or imagined goal of "getting heroic/mythic raid ready".

A gear chase game for near 2 decades has gear chase as its main content, more news at 11.

And before the usual dumb answers, they rereleased the classic versions and it took that to realize that leveling isnt "content" and the first 6 years of the game it was "raid log" compared to now.

Or, all these new gen wannabe gamers can accept not all games are the same, this isnt Skyrim and there are another 3-5 decent MMORPGs that are story based.

[ceall]

The only problem here and in any other "I'm a casual but deserve the best loot"-thread is entitlement.

Nowadays people think that because they pay 15 bucks a month, everyone needs to be on equal footings. It has been too often that I've read "but i pay my sub, i deserve this".

Fact is, the only thing you (the "casual") deserve for paying your sub which is the exact same they (the "hardcores") deserve, is ACCESS TO THE SERVERS!

What people do after "earning their right to be online" in the game is all up to them.

[Coldkil]

Or, all these new gen wannabe gamers can accept not all games are the same, this isnt Skyrim and there are another 3-5 decent MMORPGs that are story based.

Wouldn't go all the way like this but i mostly agree with the sentiment behind the words.

But then i also check in the game and Blizzard is constantly putting up new ways for said players to be up-to-par with the others otherwise they would be unable to do anything relevant (which they still are for a multitude of non-gear-related reasons).

Gear progression is the core of WoW. Unfortunately it's also the base onto which you build up reasons for people to play, so you have to "give it away" one way or another. My idea of a solution is just to make a universal plateau for gear at a relatively decent level (15s and HC) and then drip it down to open world content. Again, when a patch is 3 months in most people is already done with the game - you're left with casuals who likely don't even set foot in a raid and likely do low level m+ sometimes.

I see no issues in giving them stuff i already have and have no competition with. Hell, i would play more since i'm fine in doing a full raid/m+ schedule on my main but i really don't have the will to do it again on alts if not in a really really casual way. Not that i am forced to play alts, but it would be something nice for everyone in my opinion.

[potis]

Wouldn't go all the way like this but i mostly agree with the sentiment behind the words.

But then i also check in the game and Blizzard is constantly putting up new ways for said players to be up-to-par with the others otherwise they would be unable to do anything relevant (which they still are for a multitude of non-gear-related reasons).

Gear progression is the core of WoW. Unfortunately it's also the base onto which you build up reasons for people to play, so you have to "give it away" one way or another. My idea of a solution is just to make a universal plateau for gear at a relatively decent level (15s and HC) and then drip it down to open world content. Again, when a patch is 3 months in most people is already done with the game - you're left with casuals who likely don't even set foot in a raid and likely do low level m+ sometimes.

I see no issues in giving them stuff i already have and have no competition with. Hell, i would play more since i'm fine in doing a full raid/m+ schedule on my main but i really don't have the will to do it again on alts if not in a really really casual way. Not that i am forced to play alts, but it would be something nice for everyone in my opinion.

The problem arises from both sides after.

If its introduced too soon "Why the fuck would i raid?" , if its introduced too late "OMFG BLIZZARD, WHY DO I HAVE TO PAY YOU 3 MONTHS, WHERE IS MY FREE GEAR, I LOGGED ON 2 HOURS THIS MONTH".

For those that can do it, its completely natural to go for the easier way out, thats why which i am pretty sure you remember, everyone was screaming dear murder when Valor Points were locked behind weekly quests that forced you to do LFR/Normal raiding to get them.

Right now, this new tier system which is great, but instantly revealed a problem, why would i reclear the raid when there is no point? We literally extended 3-4 weeks (we only raided 2 hours/week cause of people having IRL obligations multiple times in a row) and there is no point reclearing cause we already had all the items from the conversion system.

So we killed HC Jailer once, and stopped till next patch, compared to reclearing a few times, although this was also mostly cause of burn out cause the raid was too large.

The thing is, the game already works as you described, with the mix of HC chest every few weeks freebie, the legendaries that require nothing apart from gold and small items here and there, like World Boss, you can have a ~260, so averagely heroic level character after a couple of months.

Problem isnt that, problem is people want a 278 character from doing world quests, and because they want to game hop, and not actually play, which is understandable, there are dozens of good games out there, and people dont wanna pay multiple ones, they want it done for the time they find acceptable, for some its 1 month, for others its 3 months, etc.

The average game hopper wants everything the first month so he doesnt have to resub, thats the problem and the narrative of this whole movement of players, which goes literally against the company profit, it will never happen.

[Kayb]

Max level gear for world quests would hurt nothing but the fragile egos of the "elite" that feel you need to "earn" the privilege to wear that gear, they seem to think everyone looks up to them because they no life dungeons on mythic, but reality is no one cares and no one ever will care what they have earned except their small group of fragile ego friends. I hope that answers your question.

I will assume though that one of the "elite" I was talking about will pretend to be a normal player and say they look up to those players but what can you do /shrug.

^ This. Multiplied to infinity.

[Coldkil]

-snip-

Yeah, it's total valid points you make and there's no easy solution if any actually. As i said, something that works for me may not work for anyone else.

Though there are ways to improve the situation i suppose (as it is with everything) and DF being a "paradigm shift in the design of the game" from what they say it can be a chance to see something managed differently. We'll see what comes out.

And i totally feel you about HC Jailer. I had not much time to play so i'm progressing though it now and it's harder because most people are done and stopped playing + summer. But in the end gear is not what makes raid, like at all. All while the tier set crafting is something really good.

[kamuimac]

The only problem here and in any other "I'm a casual but deserve the best loot"-thread is entitlement.

Nowadays people think that because they pay 15 bucks a month, everyone needs to be on equal footings. It has been too often that I've read "but i pay my sub, i deserve this".

Fact is, the only thing you (the "casual") deserve for paying your sub which is the exact same they (the "hardcores") deserve, is ACCESS TO THE SERVERS!

What people do after "earning their right to be online" in the game is all up to them.

its not problem with "casual players" its problem with "badual" players who lack skills but want to have the same gear because they think that with high enough gear they would pretend to be good .

and then as resoult end up like i did - was looking for premade for DoS 16 - and guess what - i found 1 ! it was people with 2500 + score and liek 270 itlv. and do you know how they performed ? worse then people with 240 itlv last season. at some point i was like they have to be trolling me - there is no way people can be that bad. they were. had to leave key because it woudl be over time by like 15 minutes at that pace.

some people are genuinly really bad at this game.

[potis]

Yeah, it's total valid points you make and there's no easy solution if any actually. As i said, something that works for me may not work for anyone else.

Though there are ways to improve the situation i suppose (as it is with everything) and DF being a "paradigm shift in the design of the game" from what they say it can be a chance to see something managed differently. We'll see what comes out.

And i totally feel you about HC Jailer. I had not much time to play so i'm progressing though it now and it's harder because most people are done and stopped playing + summer. But in the end gear is not what makes raid, like at all. All while the tier set crafting is something really good.

There are ways to improve it, but their main design the last 4 expansions has been to keep the expansion hoppers for 1 month longer, the things people request on here, thats literally what i said "I want everything in the timeframe i deem acceptable so i can game hop" is going against the design of the game, which is why it baffles me that people can be so naive.

We will see how DF will go, as long as everything is account wide i am happy, that has been my main problem for years, but i dont trust them to do it correctly on the first go, cause it sounds like a raid logging expansion, which is lovely for me since its what i want mostly.

[ellieg]

No, its not. Just do the content and get the gear. Stop comparing your gear to mythic raiders, if you aren't mythic raiding. It's honestly not that hard. Jist literally stop right clicking and inspecting, and you'll never have to worry abt gear again.

[Osmeric]

The thing is, you don't get to decide how people design their product. You only get to choose whether you buy it or not. Insult me all you want, it doesn't change reality.

Well, we also get to dance happily on the grave of the devs' hopes and dreams if their product offends us and then fails.

[Coldkil]

There are ways to improve it, but their main design the last 4 expansions has been to keep the expansion hoppers for 1 month longer, the things people request on here, thats literally what i said "I want everything in the timeframe i deem acceptable so i can game hop" is going against the design of the game, which is why it baffles me that people can be so naive.

We will see how DF will go, as long as everything is account wide i am happy, that has been my main problem for years, but i dont trust them to do it correctly on the first go, cause it sounds like a raid logging expansion, which is lovely for me since its what i want mostly.

Again, agree. I like the fact that i can focus on raids/m+ and once i'm done i have time to do whatever i want. Especially if unlocks are per account, because what i hated the most from Legion onwards is progressing through a long system only to have to redo it all over again on every single alt - which killed all my will to play other characters for the most part.

[Biomega]

Again, agree. I like the fact that i can focus on raids/m+ and once i'm done i have time to do whatever i want. Especially if unlocks are per account, because what i hated the most from Legion onwards is progressing through a long system only to have to redo it all over again on every single alt - which killed all my will to play other characters for the most part.

It boggles the mind that they never thought to change this when it would solve several prominent problems. A robust account-wide progression system wouldn't just make alt life easier, it would also give casuals something to work towards - tie it into convenience perks, cosmetics, whatever, and you've got an expandable horizontal progression system right there.

But noooooo, can't have that. We have to design the game like it's 2010.