What if the Horde quests were written like Alliance quests ?

[Aucald]

If only Vol'jin had some "Yseralline Seed for healing, Bruiseweed for curing poison, and Elemental Earth for disease resistance and just a touch of ground Felwort for attunement." to be healed instead of being a troll that are naturally resistant to poison coupled with being blessed by a loa of death and being beholden to the loa of poison as well

Let's not kid ourselves. They just wanted him gone

Yeah, the intent was pretty obvious to kill him, there's no real debate there. But the precedent of the Fel being poisonous is certainly there - and generally speaking, passive Fel poisoning doesn't kill most humanoids outright as opposed to corrupting/mutating them over time (same as it did with the Orcs on Draenor, even those who didn't drink Mannoroth's blood). Vol'jin also stated that during his time on the Broken Shore the Loa were distant, and so his Trollish immunity to poison may have been blinkered (and possibly even annulled) by the active interference of what turned out to be Mueh'zala. Similarly, when Bwonsamdi abandoned Vol'jin during Shadows of the Horde it was shown that Vol'jin could barely heal at all, his healing even slower than that of a human as Trolls appear to be somewhat reliant on their divinely-granted regenerated in lieu of biological healing.

In light of that, it's quite possible that under ordinary circumstances Fel poisoning would've been no big deal to Vol'jin, but with Mueh'zala actively suppressing his connection to Bwonsamdi and the other Loa and with that potentially negating his ability to heal himself, even minor Fel poisoning could prove fatal.

[VladlTutushkin]

most of ur play is/should be on ur main, how many alts u have? 20? 30? SoO is since out since MoP era so u had access to it 500+ time
can u really count alt quest and 1 time scenario vs 500+ time raid?
if u want to count alliance vs horde loss u can start with losing entire planet for horde, try to 'outloss' that (which happened thanks to Medivh/Sargeras, if u want to go blame entire race for 1 individual action u can blame humans for that in that logic, alongside blaming nelf for sundering Azeroth)
both sides did lot of crimes, but biggest difference between alliance and horde is horde try to repent, alliance kill u, claim that is the right action, steal ur land, never think wrong of anything, check Tyralion story or heck entire alliance foundation with high elves (who ironically are still alliance, worst fictional stockholm case ever)

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Vol'jin was killed by a trash mob in legion, until they decided to reuse that idea in BFA
Same as Sylvannas, her motives literally change every patch, pre-BFA it was to invade stormwind, her 'long lost' dream that she didn't even know herself since we have a lot of her inner monologue since wow started, then in SL it was follow Jailer for breaking chain, while even a worm that has no brain can detect easily he is pure evil
Let's not sugar coat it, they wanted to off Vol'jin, they invented a reason later, that simple, it was presented way wrong, hope they don't repeat it (yeah right...)

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so... u consider gameplay isn't valuable because of lore? then alliance still win by miles in lore, u beat horde both in-game and lore
i don't get it?


ok... u really bad at updated lore
Southshore is officially alliance, entire Ashenvale is alliance, Stonetalon was never an alliance zone to lose, Darkshore got cleansed in the crap Night warrior story, Theramore and half of barrens are alliance, Arathi is pure alliance, Hillsbrad (it holds alterac too) is still contested, neither claim it
yeah u are right, the situation isn't bad, it is far worse than even i thought, if blizz decide to update game to show lore horde will have to go fuck themselves with no zone at all to even lvl, even pure horde lands like Durotan has strong alliance presence official lore
Why not just ask to delete horde faction and end it?

Not according to both “Exploring” books. Stonetalon was 50/50 Horde and Alliance. Ashenvale is in constant warfare according to Exploring Kalimdor. Darkshore is NOT CLEANSED as Exploring Kalimdor story happens AFTER the BfA…

Listen, i am tired of bringing up books only to later read your poorly put together posts where you make lore mistakes because you dont read books.

Buy or download both of them, or read a summary and then come back and stop fucking up constantly with zone status.

[Aurabolt]

Yeah, the intent was pretty obvious to kill him, there's no real debate there. But the precedent of the Fel being poisonous is certainly there - and generally speaking, passive Fel poisoning doesn't kill most humanoids outright as opposed to corrupting/mutating them over time (same as it did with the Orcs on Draenor, even those who didn't drink Mannoroth's blood). Vol'jin also stated that during his time on the Broken Shore the Loa were distant, and so his Trollish immunity to poison may have been blinkered (and possibly even annulled) by the active interference of what turned out to be Mueh'zala. Similarly, when Bwonsamdi abandoned Vol'jin during Shadows of the Horde it was shown that Vol'jin could barely heal at all, his healing even slower than that of a human as Trolls appear to be somewhat reliant on their divinely-granted regenerated in lieu of biological healing.

In light of that, it's quite possible that under ordinary circumstances Fel poisoning would've been no big deal to Vol'jin, but with Mueh'zala actively suppressing his connection to Bwonsamdi and the other Loa and with that potentially negating his ability to heal himself, even minor Fel poisoning could prove fatal.

Well said.

One thing I have come to appreciate in recent expansions is how there is always more to what you're presented with at first. Vol'Jin surviving his assassination attempt in Pandaria and then dealing with the physical and spiritual fallout ends up setting the stage for how he dies so easily in Legion. It's easy to miss even if you read the book Shadows of the Horde. Of course, we find out in BFA and Shadowlands Vol'Jin was manipulated into naming Sylvanas Warchief. This is to say nothing of Mueh'zala suppressing Bwonsamdi's link with Vol'Jin. I can't remember when exactly but I think remember reading somewhere Bwon commented Vol'Jin died before he was supposed to and something interfered with their at the Broken Shore. Because of the interference, Vol'Jin is now being set up to become a new Loa himself.

The explainations are mostly for background commentary but from a development standpoint, Vol'Jin was killed off when he was because Blizz likely did not have any longterm plans for him as Warchief. He was always meant to be an Interim Warchief after SoO but it's the abruptness of his death that rubbed people the wrong way, not the fact he died. At least that was my impression.

[Jackstraw]

Remind me the last time when Horde’s actions actually had consequences? I mean outside shifting all the blame on one person.

When neutral races turned away from the Horde because of their cruel reputation or penchant for war crimes? When organisations like Cenarion Circle or Silver Hand put a ban on Horde membership and sent aid to Alliance specifically? When big neutral characters went Alliance because of Horde’s actions?

Even Khadgar who literally promised to join the Alliance if Horde harms Teldrassil remained neutral despite that.

Only time you got some backlash was when Tyrande was rude to you, lol.

Remind me what the Vindicaar is?
Which race is Valeera?
While we're at it, remind me how many Horde characters were present during the dismantling of Argus. Oh, none? Oh alright then. Must be another Orcs expansion.

Yeah. Like when the Purge of Dalaran was immediately forgotten and the Blood elves still rejoined the Alliance... Oh no wait... but it was forgotten by the time of BfA right? That's right the Sunreavers totally helped Jaina free Baine. Oh wait...

But actually I do agree, I remember the time when Tyrande being """"antagonistic""" towards the Nightborne ended up fine because it totally didn't cost the Alliance a major foothold in the Broken Isles just because Tyrande made Thalyssra salty. We're so lucky that the Nightborne forgave Tyrande for her "mean words"!

The Purge of Dalaran is forgotten, the official stance is that Jaina teleported the Sunreavers away from Dalaran one Frostbolt at a time.
The Blood Elves did not join the Alliance then, true. Then again why would they? Jaina was a rogue agent at that point, she was not High Queen of the Alliance, you did not spectate an event where you had no control and that ultimately harmed your faction's reputation.

You remember Tyrande throwing a passive aggressive death threat to a Thalissra that up until five minutes prior was a junkie close to death? Good. So we can agree that Liandrin's compassion is a better trait than arrogant contempt from the person who helped in causing the Sundering in the first place.

While we're at it, the Vulpera purge commando repurposed in 7th legion despoilers because Alliance did not like it? What about Taurajo getting justified by Baine itself.
The Forsaken blighted Southshore. It was not a whoopsie, it was a military target (much like Theramore) and the Horde - rightfully - got blamed for that because Southshore was also a fishermen's village. There's a constant double standard that got to its peak in BfA when the War of Thorns showed the Horde maneuvering around civilian targets and only striking military, and the Alliance quests on the other hand showed the Horde shouting mottos as they basically bodied everything in sight. And there's the mother impaled too somewhere in Stormwhatever the name near Boralus.

This is what I mean. This is my point. This is THE point.
You are now welcome to get to your gymnastics in justifying how the Alliance in truth did nothing wrong, so that you can prove my point once more in this embarassing charade.

[Feanoro]

Remind me what the Vindicaar is?

A ship that was completely forgotten by the entire Alliance.

The Purge of Dalaran is forgotten, the official stance is that Jaina teleported the Sunreavers away from Dalaran one Frostbolt at a time.

Given that the official stance comes from Dave Kosak, at the time the head writer, yes Jaina teleported Sunreavers. Attacking them was buggy mechanics that were later fixed. Bugs are not lore.

You remember Tyrande throwing a passive aggressive death threat to a Thalissra that up until five minutes prior was a junkie close to death?

I remember that the Nightborne originally sided with Azshara and the Legion and only saved their own skins when they realized they were targets too. I remember that there's a long history of the mana addicts doing anything to get a fix, so it was a valid concern. It utterly ruined Thalyssra's character too, as throughout the Suramar campaign she acknowledged that she would have to earn outside trust.

So we can agree that Liandrin's compassion is a better trait than arrogant contempt from the person who helped in causing the Sundering in the first place.

No, I don't agree that her complete lies about the Horde were better. No, I don't agree that a character going from "The Nightborne will rejoin the world, but not as conquerors" to "Hell yeah, girlfriend, let's burn our kin and slaughter the Alliance" was a good thing.

There's a constant double standard that got to its peak in BfA when the War of Thorns showed the Horde maneuvering around civilian targets and only striking military, and the Alliance quests on the other hand showed the Horde shouting mottos as they basically bodied everything in sight. And there's the mother impaled too somewhere in Stormwhatever the name near Boralus.

Then your problem is with Blizzard, not with Alliance players.

You are now welcome to get to your gymnastics in justifying how the Alliance in truth did nothing wrong, so that you can prove my point once more in this embarassing charade.

You are now welcome to continue cherry picking, ignoring lore you don't like, and blaming Alliance players for writer decisions that universally piss off those players.

[Jackstraw]

I try my best not to be condescending but how could you answer in quotes and not understand the underlying concept.

As you proved my point, I will just use your post quoting yourself to get back to you.

No, I don't agree that her complete lies about the Horde were better. No, I don't agree that a character going from "The Nightborne will rejoin the world, but not as conquerors" to "Hell yeah, girlfriend, let's burn our kin and slaughter the Alliance" was a good thing.

Then your problem is with Blizzard, not with Horde* players.

You are now welcome to continue cherry picking, ignoring lore you don't like, and blaming Horde* players for writer decisions that universally piss off those players.

[Feanoro]

I try my best not to be condescending but how could you answer in quotes and not understand the underlying concept.

As you proved my point, I will just use your post quoting yourself to get back to you.

By all means, what point would that be? The majority of your post was repeating Horde talking points. If you're trying to demonstrate that neither fanbase has any agency, repeating one side's view point is a piss poor way to do it. Can't help but notice you clipped out everything where I debunked those points.

As an example, I would have showcased the differences in the Jade Forest questline, which shows wildly different versions for each side. There's always the Rastakhan fight, where the pre fight machinima depended on your faction.


Here's the thing, I'm not blaming the Horde fans for writer calls. I'm blaming the Horde fans for failing to understand that they do have some agency, while Alliance has nearly none. Horde gets entire alternate questlines built, developer interviews to reassure them, and Alliance at best gets NPCs renamed when they state "death squads" aren't typical and make no sense.

The entire shitshows of Garrosh and Sylvie were a result of trying to pander to two divisions within the Horde fans, with Alliance being allowed to tag along, yet Hordies try to blame everything on Alliance players. Trying to claim the Horde fans universally didn't like going full evil Horde those times is demonstrably false.

[Varodoc]

The Purge of Dalaran is forgotten, the official stance is that Jaina teleported the Sunreavers away from Dalaran one Frostbolt at a time.

Frostbolts don't have to be lethal, this is simply a case of Jaina neutralizing the insurgents and teleporting them out instead of outright killing them. Just your typical good guy behaviour honestly. The Horde would have simply slaughtered them indiscriminately.

Then again why would they?

Because Garrosh was clearly crazy and was sending their troops into obvious suicide missions. Then Blizzard realized "oopsie, we can't give the Alliance another race entirely" and asspulled this whole Purge of Dalaran.

You remember Tyrande throwing a passive aggressive death threat

Oh nyooo, big meanie Tyrande used mean words, time to join the clearly evil and genocidal side (((

Thalissra that up until five minutes prior was a junkie close to death?

Maybe it would have been better if the crack addict was put down, it would have given the Horde less cannon fodder to use against the Alliance in the war.

So we can agree that Liandrin's compassion is a better trait than arrogant contempt from the person who helped in causing the Sundering in the first place.

@KrayZ33

Lol, see? Horde players have no problem blaming the Alliance for the Sundering even though it makes no fucking sense, since the playable Night elves are those who OPPOSED Queen Azshara and the Legion, while the Nightborne and Blood elves are descendants of the Highborne who SUPPORTED Azshara. I wasn't joking when I said that.

Also, who says that compassion is good? Thalyssra is a crack addict junkie whose backstory resembled Elisande's and Azshara's and Tyrande pointed out that she, indeed, risked becoming another psycho if she wasn't careful. If poor little Thalyssra couldn't handle the facts, that seems like her problem, not Tyrande, who simply pointed out a potential outcome.

the Vulpera purge commando repurposed in 7th legion despoilers because Alliance did not like it?

The Purge Squad were clearly a cartoonish pure evil meme that doesn't fit the Alliance.

The Alliance would not "purge" the Vulpera. The Alliance is not the Horde, they do not commit genocide. But the Alliance would try to "despoil" the Vulpera of their riches and resources, since the Vulpera were aiding the Zandalari in resisting the Alliance siege on Zuldazar, long before the Vulpera officially joined the Horde.

What about Taurajo getting justified by Baine itself.

It seems to me like Baine is simply more realistic than 99.9% of the Horde playerbase. Canonically Camp Taurajo was a hunting camp recruiting troops, making it a military target in the way of the Alliance.

The Forsaken blighted Southshore. It was not a whoopsie, it was a military target

Nope. Taurajo was recruiting troops and was located on the borders with Alliance-controlled lands around Theramore. Meanwhile, there is no evidence Southshore was training troops.

Furthermore, Southshore was a fishing village, so a village inhabited by fishers, by civilians. Meanwhile, Camp Taurajo was a hunting camp, so inhabited by hunters, military.

the War of Thorns showed the Horde maneuvering around civilian targets and only striking military, and the Alliance quests on the other hand showed the Horde shouting mottos as they basically bodied everything in sight

The two events can coexist, you don't know what every troop was doing.

And there's the mother impaled too somewhere in Stormwhatever the name near Boralus.

The name of a main Alliance questing zone should not to be forgotten when discussing the Alliance.

A mother impaled while her son watched her and cried.

A village in flames.

Another civilian was turned into a fish on mainland by a Forsaken mage, who delighted in watching the transformed creature struggle to breathe.

And we have a missive written by Sylvanas herself where she ordered the Horde commander in the region to slaughter everyone indiscriminately.

[Jackstraw]

Snip

Of all the posters I like you the most. You're the Miz of MMO-C.

But one thing is in order here:

Lol, see? Horde players have no problem blaming the Alliance for the Sundering even though it makes no fucking sense, since the playable Night elves are those who OPPOSED Queen Azshara and the Legion, while the Nightborne and Blood elves are descendants of the Highborne who SUPPORTED Azshara. I wasn't joking when I said that.

Tyrande is not the Alliance, but is associated with it. Her acting all and mighty has nothing to do with the Alliance, Liandrin furthers the core ethos of the Horde and demonstrates it with her actions.
We can agree with the fact that Thalyssra gets really out of character as soon as BfA comes and goes ballistic with her war declarations. Although really, I don't think I saw a single Nightborne deployment throughout the entire expansions whereas Void Elves and Dark Irons are oftentimes used.