Right now Dragonflight is the most boring expansion ever.

[Hitei]

I'm acting like removing our abilities and calling it a "talent" is a lazy design for what they are hyping up to be a big feature of the expansion.

When you add up all of the abilities we rebuy, you realize how little is left in the talent tree. And builds we are using right now, are no longer possible. Thats what my issue is.

The "big feature" here isn't you getting Mind Freeze. It's the way talents and abilities are selected being heavily changed.

Yes. Some old builds will not be possible, and new builds are possible. Are you new to the game? Hello. Welcome to what happens anytime they do major class or talent changes: things are different.

[Biomega]

The "big feature" here isn't you getting Mind Freeze. It's the way talents and abilities are selected being heavily changed.

Yes. Some old builds will not be possible, and new builds are possible. Are you new to the game? Hello. Welcome to what happens anytime they do major class or talent changes: things are different.

The big fear though is that it's all an illusion.

The idea of distinct "builds" is probably mostly a fantasy - at least for the vast majority of classes. It'll likely be the same across the board, with 3-5 talents that could go either way depending on either utility or fight demands (probably largely AoE vs. ST). But probably very little actual, substantial difference in the sense of rotational changes or playstyle differences, at least for most specs.

We don't know for sure yet of course, but from what we've seen and heard so far that outcome seems the most likely. Happy to be proved wrong, of course.

[SinR]

So you've played it?

[Hitei]

The big fear though is that it's all an illusion.

The idea of distinct "builds" is probably mostly a fantasy - at least for the vast majority of classes. It'll likely be the same across the board, with 3-5 talents that could go either way depending on either utility or fight demands (probably largely AoE vs. ST). But probably very little actual, substantial difference in the sense of rotational changes or playstyle differences, at least for most specs.

We don't know for sure yet of course, but from what we've seen and heard so far that outcome seems the most likely. Happy to be proved wrong, of course.

But that's exactly why it's a dumb fear. The absolute worst case scenario here is that the new talent system is just the current talent system but with more points.

[DeltrusDisc]

It didn't help that the announcement felt like forced hype so much it was cringe. They showed like 3 features and everyone pretended like it was the most amazing thing ever conceived. That only underscored how little there actually was.

Doesn't help that so much of it defined by what's missing - the expansion systems are defined by NOT being borrowed power; the dragon riding thing is defined by NOT being flying; and all anyone saw about Drac'thyr was that they CAN'T be any other class (and of course the hardcore fanatics only saw Evoker as NOT being Tinker, too).

That's not a good way to get people excited.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. If this were Reddit I'd upvote you and give you an award.

[Ryzek]

So long as I get to raid like every expansion before then I'm fine. The less bloat features the better imo.

[Rtrain]

I'm hoping swapping loadouts is as simple as using a tome

99% of players will not really notice much of a difference in play but I definitely will when I go laser bear for farm

- - - Updated - - -



Yes because that's equivalent to an ability that is used in maybe 50% of encounters to the degree multiple people need it

Oh no you can choose to not have an ability the horror. Whatever will I do without the interrupt on a boss that doesn't have an ability I can interrupt. But the paralyze on sludgefist is so useful and my finger just hits that empty krybind now.

Tomes do seem like best case scenario, but even then you’ll likely be using 5-10x the tomes you use now during raid. And the downside on blizzard end is tomes wil definitely enable some sort of pre pull shenanigans inevitably.

The interupt arguement is dumb. It doesn’t bother me either way they handle interupts or dispels. What bothers me is them taking a lot of flavor and meat out of classes. I want talent trees to enhance a character not just be building blocks for a character. I think it would be cool to give some classes some identity back. For example give rogues kick baseline, it’s the most flavor version of kick, and for balance purposes you still have several other classes who can spec into kick.

[Biomega]

But that's exactly why it's a dumb fear. The absolute worst case scenario here is that the new talent system is just the current talent system but with more points.

Why is that a dumb fear, though?

People want CHANGE, not the ILLUSION of change.

And what you describe isn't the worst case. The worst case is this turns into an oppressive shitshow where people are all "m+10 dungeon must be specced 3/14/7 interrupt OR NO INVITE" or whatever and we turn a wealth of options into a wealth of non-options that create points of failure for non-optimized players for no reason.

And even if it JUST ends up as "current but with more points to throw around" that's still really bad for the game.

I'm not saying either of those is certain or even incredibly likely; but to say it's a dumb fear is glossing over a mountain of potential problems we've already identified, even before it's playable.

[Goat7]

I really need to point out again that we just had 2 filler expansions in a row. Saying "maybe 11.0 will have more content" would mean 8 years or massive underperforming by Blizzard. I don't know if that can happen. DF is basically their last chance of they want to continue with WoW.

- - - Updated - - -



There is no situation in the game where a interrupt is not at least helpful.

- - - Updated - - -



Bro... Why...
Stop giving them ideas.

I agree but DF is exactly what it is.... a last chance cash grab. Anyone that does not have WoW or Blizzard blinders on can see this.

The reveal was very lack luster, not anything to be excited about and now we can a very very VERY very very early release date within the next 5 months.

They gotta get dat money before Microsoft takes over once it gets thru the govt checks n balances. Thats all this is

[Revamp Man]

Tomes do seem like best case scenario, but even then you’ll likely be using 5-10x the tomes you use now during raid. And the downside on blizzard end is tomes wil definitely enable some sort of pre pull shenanigans inevitably.

The interupt arguement is dumb. It doesn’t bother me either way they handle interupts or dispels. What bothers me is them taking a lot of flavor and meat out of classes. I want talent trees to enhance a character not just be building blocks for a character. I think it would be cool to give some classes some identity back. For example give rogues kick baseline, it’s the most flavor version of kick, and for balance purposes you still have several other classes who can spec into kick.

the argument is right though
its not about if you mind it but the fact people are saying "no i need to burn a talent point on this and it is not a choice" when it is literally a choice

the excessive use of tomes is literally going to be so minimal that it will be as much of a problem as "players will swap covenants every boss"

[Biomega]

the argument is right though
its not about if you mind it but the fact people are saying "no i need to burn a talent point on this and it is not a choice" when it is literally a choice

Few people are saying it's not a LITERAL choice. Of course it is. You have the option to do it, or not do it. Choice right there.

But is it an ACTUAL choice? That's the question. Yes technically you could not take it, but will it affect your performance and gameplay experience in ways so negative that you'd rather not make that choice?

Arguing technicalities isn't useful here. Sure, diabetics can technically CHOOSE not to take insulin and slowly die. But to say "insulin is a choice" there would be extremely disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.

[Chilela]

On one hand, I do kinda agree with the OP's sentiment. Watching the reveal, there was nothing that really "wowed" me. While no borrowed power systems is a good thing, it came at the cost of there being little of interest. Talent tree revamps and profession revamps could be fine, if done correctly, but that's a very big "if" on both counts. And if they're really going to try to push it out this year, which I doubt, it will likely be a clown fiesta at launch.

Also, no cosmic threat theme is a plus.

[Rtrain]

the argument is right though
its not about if you mind it but the fact people are saying "no i need to burn a talent point on this and it is not a choice" when it is literally a choice

the excessive use of tomes is literally going to be so minimal that it will be as much of a problem as "players will swap covenants every boss"

Nah, I just think its dumb to argue either side of that argument because it literally doesn't matter. It's not the limiting factor to whether or not this will be a good system. It's really not a factor. But it's not like talenting into an interrupt when you need an interrupt is fun or interesting either.

Swapping between bosses never seemed that annoying to me. Just requires a bit of coordination. Swapping for trash > boss > trash > boss > trash > boss will be annoying even if it just requires a tome and a few clicks. But things like interrupts and stuns will make it almost a requirement now. (A lot of top end guilds/players already did this on trash btw, it's just going to be more important now)

[Guidance]

Most of things that you want is just way worst for me, but I'm also a not big fan of mews classes or spec on this game

Why not just fix the current ones?

Tbh right now it's just better for wait until launch, blizzard don't have our trust right now and don't deserve it
But community don't know anything too

[Zodiark]

Big difference between the games is the dev mentality
I'm not sure I've heard about FF devs saying
Players are the problem that caused devs to diddle each other
Players don't understand the system that was changed days before launch
Players can't handle saying no so they had to remove ML
The restrictions Players complained about and were removed actually made the game better
The reason devs don't talk is because of player criticism

Meanwhile Yoshi just says "hey we screwed up but thank you for playing our game. Don't take shots at other games"

Well first off. Yes there are different mentalities. Blizzard as well as most American gaming companies could learn a few lessons in humility. But some of those things you mentioned are just hearsay or statements taken out of context.

[khazmodan]

I'm pretty hyped because slaying Dragons is what got me in games in the first place. Its quintessential fantasy for me. Let me at some evil Dragons.

"Nothing brings a family together like slaying demons", what you said sounds so much like what Wyatt Cheng said at Blizzcon for Diablo Immortal. I bet when you want to blow off steam you drink Tab, play Robotron and listen to Duran Duran.

[Utrrabbit]

It will be an instant failure if there's nothing to do again like in Shadowlands. We need huge player power and character progression outside of raiding or the game is dead on arrival.

No you don't. This is the most fucked up stupid thing I have ever heard. Huge player power is LITERALLY whar got the game in the situarion it is. Fuck no.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree but DF is exactly what it is.... a last chance cash grab. Anyone that does not have WoW or Blizzard blinders on can see this.

The reveal was very lack luster, not anything to be excited about and now we can a very very VERY very very early release date within the next 5 months.

They gotta get dat money before Microsoft takes over once it gets thru the govt checks n balances. Thats all this is

1. Total skill tree revamp (extremely excited)
2. Total profession revamp (extremely excited)
3. Going to the Dragon Isle
4. Learning more about Dragon lore
5. Murozond or Galakrond as the big bad.
6. A return to the world being important.

Saying it has nothing to be excited for is just fucking stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Why is that a dumb fear, though?

People want CHANGE, not the ILLUSION of change.

And what you describe isn't the worst case. The worst case is this turns into an oppressive shitshow where people are all "m+10 dungeon must be specced 3/14/7 interrupt OR NO INVITE" or whatever and we turn a wealth of options into a wealth of non-options that create points of failure for non-optimized players for no reason.

And even if it JUST ends up as "current but with more points to throw around" that's still really bad for the game.

I'm not saying either of those is certain or even incredibly likely; but to say it's a dumb fear is glossing over a mountain of potential problems we've already identified, even before it's playable.

Blood Mallet has done the math and with the new talent system if each spec is like druid and dk. Than every spec has about 2.8 million combonations. Now most of those will be bad, and that is fine. It is all about choice. It is a good thing.

[Biomega]

1. Total skill tree revamp (extremely excited)

This is the most impressive feature for sure, but there's serious concerns with it - namely that it'll be far less choice than it portrays itself to be, and that it might create more toxicity in the community with people being more discriminatory about perceived "locked" choices like interrupts. There's fear mixed in with excitement here, and not little of it.

2. Total profession revamp (extremely excited)

Barely talked about, because it's so optional. Since you can just get other people to craft your stuff, a lot of people will just outright ignore this. Especially with Blizzard's track record of making professions money-fuled wait-for-the-bar-to-fill simulators and all previous attempts at making professions more exciting falling flat on their face.

3. Going to the Dragon Isle

Cool. Unlike all the other expansions, where we never went to a new continent.

4. Learning more about Dragon lore

We don't know what actual new stuff there will be. A lot of it is actually BANKING on the fact that the flights already have established lore and recognizable identities. There'll be some more to flesh out, to be sure, but that's not really on the level of an expansion feature.

5. Murozond or Galakrond as the big bad.

Possibly, perhaps even probably. But we don't know, haven't seen anything, and at the end of the day they're just big dragons. This COULD be exciting at some point but right now it's just a big maybe with a lot of empty space.

6. A return to the world being important.

That's also scary to a lot of people, because "let's spend 10 minutes trying to get from A to B!" makes for a good sound bite, but is pretty terrible replay value. Hitting your space bar to dragon fly-jump-fall-hover to your daily quest hub on your 3rd alt will get annoying REAL quick. But the biggest problem is that this is largely a vapid, empty promise - "a return to the world!"; okay. How? WHY? They have shown nothing to make us WANT to do that, other than dragon flying. Why do we care about the world suddenly? What's in it for us, other than them telling us it's important? No systems, no fundamental reasons to care or be excited. People who cared about jumping puzzles to find a lore pebble will always have that. The vast average player base won't care unless given a reason to care - and so far they HAVEN'T.

Saying it has nothing to be excited for is just fucking stupid.

Obviously it's hyperbole and nobody thinks it's literal nothing. But it's a lot less exciting than previous expansions have been, because there's a lot less STUFF to be excited about. Words and promises abound, but Blizz devs sitting around a table going "THIS IS GOING TO BE SO EXCITING YOU GUYS!" in their rattling-off-a-script voices does not actual hype make.

Blood Mallet has done the math and with the new talent system if each spec is like druid and dk. Than every spec has about 2.8 million combonations. Now most of those will be bad, and that is fine. It is all about choice. It is a good thing.

There aren't 2.8 million VIABLE combinations. They're technical combos that include incomplete and nonsensical bullshit nobody would ever consider, and to INCLUDE THAT as though it were somehow a feature of player agency is about some of the most dishonest shit I've ever heard.

Congratulations you've figured out how combinatorial math works, and also completely missed the ACTUAL concern people have; which is not with the "only put 3 points in a pvp talent and leave the rest unspent because THAT'S AN OPTION AND THEREFORE A CHOICE" kind of variety, but the actual in-game reality of what can be made viable and competitive. And then you go from 2.8 million mathematical choices to probably less than 2.8 REAL choices, because 95% of talents will be pretty much set in stone, and 3-5 will vary based on whether you're doing a dungeon, AoE boss, or ST boss, and very little else you get to ACTUALLY change.

[Utrrabbit]

I never said that they would all be viable. I said it is a great that the players have choice. If only 1% of choices are viable than that is still 28000 viable combonations. That is still fucking amazing.

If .05% is viable than that is 1400 viable combonations for each spec. That is fantastic.

[Stormxraven]

Huh how can you says its the most boring expaansion when it hasnt even been released yet? give em a chance to show some stuff off before you write it off jeez