Genuine Question: Why do mobile games need to be pay to win?

[Elim Garak]

Got anything I can read about it?
Quick googling about it doesn't say anything of it being a replacement of dopamine, just that's it's part of the process of the reward system, not that it is one which dopamine is. A reward system to get us to do things. If extroverts and introverts activate the reward system differently, doesn't mean much since they chase the same thing. Curious of reading more specifics about it in this context though.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/37487


Yeah, it sounds like it's helping the release of dopamine. By bridging the neuroconnections so they can transmit. So both do indeed chase dopamine, afaict. It also seems to trigger in muscle connections so their signals can go through... basically a medium to help send signals through the bodies connections.

It's not replacing dopamine, both introverts and extraverts make use of dopamine and acetylcholine. It's just their brains are wired differently.
You can just google "introversion acetylcholine"
Here's one of my top results that explains the difference: https://introvertdear.com/news/intro...ng-to-science/

[Kumorii]

It's not replacing dopamine, both introverts and extraverts make use of dopamine and acetylcholine. It's just their brains are wired differently.
You can just google "introversion acetylcholine"
Here's one of my top results that explains the difference: https://introvertdear.com/news/intro...ng-to-science/

From reading that it didn't get much clearer... most references are self references as well.
When I read about acetylcholine, I find nothing of it being a reward system except that it's used to make connections between neurons for signals and chemicals.

Don't get me wrong, it makes sense to me that the body would give a reward to an extrovert when being in the fight or flight response while introverts would get a reward when in a rest and digest mode... but that's still dopamine being the reward, not the acetylcholine.

https://www.britannica.com/science/acetylcholine
Nothing here states it's a reward system, it bridges the connection between neurons
And is only there for a brief moment before being broken down.

Acetylcholine is rapidly destroyed by the enzyme acetylcholinesterase and thus is effective only briefly.

So to me, this chemical is only there to make neurons work. And the texts are often talking about memory issues and Alzheimer being linked to have low acetylcholine.

I don't disagree with the text that it's different between extroverts and introverts.
And personally, if I give my own theory based off these readings I've made, in particularly this line:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine

In the sympathetic nervous system the output connections mainly release noradrenaline, although acetylcholine is released at a few points, such as the sudomotor innervation of the sweat glands.

Perhaps introverts have more acetylcholine connections and extroverts have more noradrenaline connections which is why introverts find extrovert situations to be exhausted and extroverts find introvert situations boring and become restless.
I feel like the text is making the mistake that it conflates the acetylcholine connections dispensing dopamine as if it's the reward just like dopamine.
It sounds more like noradrenaline and acetylcholine are 2 ways to dispense the dopamine reward, which are preferred differently based on person to person.
Extroverts prefer noradrenaline to get dopamine, while introverts prefer acetylcholine to get dopamine.


Also I find it odd that it has never been mentioned as a reward chemical by mental health professionals I've been too, but now I'm inclined to ask about it if I can remember it and it won't derail the meeting too long.

I'm not convinced, but it's an interesting topic. I also think it's derailing the thread a bit. If you want to continue send a message.

[Elim Garak]

Also I find it odd that it has never been mentioned as a reward chemical by mental health professionals I've been too, but now I'm inclined to ask about it if I can remember it and it won't derail the meeting too long.

I'm not convinced, but it's an interesting topic. I also think it's derailing the thread a bit. If you want to continue send a message.

Sure, ask them, do some research if it's interesting.

Just one note: a mental health professional - is just an individual who graduated a medical educational facility majoring in mental health delivery and currently is being employed at a mental health dispensary as a mental health professional.

I.e. - it's just a guy/gal with an M.D. in psychotherapy. They might not be Up-To-Date on recent medical science, even in their area of expertise. They are humans like everyone else. Lazy and full of shit.

[mrgreenthump]

Which community accepts p2w? Haven't heard of any community... I think most are against and some are split. Maybe some tinier elite groups / communities that push to be the top accepts it, but those are small.

It's "accepted" by the majority who isn't part of any community and just plays games in their spare time casually. They don't get involved in gaming politics. It's there because they earn stupidly amount of money by doing so, which is funded by the ones, mostly, who aren't part of any gaming community. Not saying there aren't gaming communities that support p2w, but personally I see little of it... I see mostly communities being against it.

Question is, why would a company who wants to earn money, listen to the people who don't want to spend money? That's what people are up against, and it's a uphill battle, not because of lack of support within communities but because of money.

speaking of just this community I would say majority is against p2w.

I would've used money on Diablo Immortal if it did anything(and it was a good game, caps ruined it though on top of being biggest P2W bullshit ever). Spending under $100 just does nothing in DI. I paid for a founder's pack in Lost Ark. I'm totally fine using money on services be it F2P or B2P as long as they are fair and not predatory and I know quite few people who think the same.. Just F2P rarely is fair and doesn't have predatory mechanics in them. So I won't pay for them. With Lost Ark I did make the mistake of supporting them, because I thought we'd get the honing rates, gear level limits and events other regions got, but we didn't.

And there are youtubers(Stew Gaming for example) defending Diablo Immortal and they have followers. I'd call that a community. Fact is that a lot people are against P2W, but the amounts are so low compared to the amounts that don't care or accept it that companies just don't care, what is bad publicity when you stand to make Billions. That's why it's so successful as a model. One mega whale is more valuable than thousands other players. And people play these games, being fodder for those who whale and use that power to feed their superiority complex.

Target kids who have no income whatsoever?

Well I had 8k€ in my back account and I had full control over it before I was 18. Some people get allowances that can go up to hundreds a month. Also parents tend to give their kids access to their credit card through app stores. Now you can chargeback if your kid does something stupid like spend thousands on a gacha game. But how many will if they were idiotic enough to give their kids access to their credit card.

[Weilyn]

- - - Updated - - -

Why isn't okay for your spouse to spend a few hundred bucks on entertainment over X time but it is okay for you and your friends? Why are your games more valid than her games?

There is a lot of nonsense in this thread that is thinly veiled, "My choices are superior to your choices in what entertains me!"

Not sure where you gathered that I said it wasn't OK for her to spend money on it. The context to the story was its accepted differently than traditional games. Sorry you were confused by basic reading comprehension skills. The part that is not OK is the monetization of the mobile games in general.

[|Dexter|]

The real truth is they don't need to be paid to win/ have fun or anything like what we are currently getting, portable games have existed for years think Gameboy and your current smart is way more powerful than that Gameboy or even Nintendo DS ever was!

The reason companies create this free-to-play-spam game is the same reason why WoW/FFXIV got cash shops on top of their subs. Because they tried and it worked! When WoW put their first sparkle pony for sale many people got them so from that point they just were adding more and more!

The same thing happened with mobile games all this started with one game and from there they tested many kind of games... if you look at the app store games you see clearly that a lot of games use the exact same ideas with different skins... they do it because that model worked! From the hero collector to the PVP pay to win model they all work and print money

[Mysterymask]

Which community accepts p2w? Haven't heard of any community... I think most are against and some are split. Maybe some tinier elite groups / communities that push to be the top accepts it, but those are small..

Arguably the with a few of the definitions of p2w here the fighting game community is generally ok with it if you assume a DLC character that is Top Tier is pay to win....

But most of us see that as a better alternative to having Ultimate Street Fighter 6 Turbo Alpha Definitive Edition for realzies this time

[Fencers]

[COLOR="#417394"]
Not sure where you gathered that I said it wasn't OK for her to spend money on it. The context to the story was its accepted differently than traditional games. Sorry you were confused by basic reading comprehension skills. The part that is not OK is the monetization of the mobile games in general.

If she is participating in a system you think is not okay, then you are saying it is not okay to spend money on these games.

Sorry, you lack basic logic skills?

[Ripster42]

Neither Shark Nor Whale, are Human....

The fuck does that have to do with anything? Whales are far removed from being related to whale sharks, which are actual sharks. You're wrong.

[Elim Garak]

The real truth is they don't need to be paid to win/ have fun or anything like what we are currently getting, portable games have existed for years think Gameboy and your current smart is way more powerful than that Gameboy or even Nintendo DS ever was!

The reason companies create this free-to-play-spam game is the same reason why WoW/FFXIV got cash shops on top of their subs. Because they tried and it worked! When WoW put their first sparkle pony for sale many people got them so from that point they just were adding more and more!

The same thing happened with mobile games all this started with one game and from there they tested many kind of games... if you look at the app store games you see clearly that a lot of games use the exact same ideas with different skins... they do it because that model worked! From the hero collector to the PVP pay to win model they all work and print money

The real truth though is WHY that worked. Which is basic economy 101. There was a demand. The new market emerged and quickly got filled with supply. And now we are at equilibrium.

[Yriel]

Which circles to the question... which communities accepts p2w aspects? or are we talking about that if someone plays a game with p2w in it and even if they don't participate in it they still "accept" it because it exists? If so I disagree with that too...

I'd say yes. There is a difference between accepting something and liking something. Someone who plays a game with P2W elements accepts P2W, even if he doesn't like them.
Plus, at least from my experience (and i'm guilty of that, too), even though people dislike the P2W elements they still use them now and then. Buy some gold ammo, buy some exceptional powerful premium ship to stay competative, to win more often, to farm currency more efficiently.

[Jerot]

Target kids who have no income whatsoever?

By your logic, why have age restrictions on gambling at all? Or alcohol for that matter, they "don't have money". :P

[Elim Garak]

Exactly. They don't. And those few who do - circumvent all restrictions.
No sane businessman will target kids with an adult product.

[Coldkil]

They don't have to be. But mobile is the perfect platform for these kind of procedures because it's immensely widepspread and in the hands of mostly tech-illiterate users who have literally zero perception about what a videogame is and what microtransactions are setup to be.

Plus, given how the games are designed to hook as much people as possible but don't really need that many people to function and be immensely profitable, it's a win-win for companies. Who gives a fuck about making a good game or having terrible backlash - you just need a handful of heavy spenders and you're going to rake up millions. And such people are usually NOT the ones that check forums or watch youtube videos about how shitty the mobile gaming market is.

One funny thing i'm going to share with you all. Diablo Immortal is like 25x worse than any other gacha games in terms of raw money you need to pump in to max out your character and it's terrible. However, in terms of shitty practices, the new Ni No Kuni game is even worse. It's awfully P2W and "it's a mobile game, so DUH" - however they decided to bank in the Crypto market, and you can farm actual crypto by playing. This lead to a massive insurgence of bots, because, you know, farming real money is actually someone would like to do - causing insane login queues for players. And what the company decided to do? To offer a paid subscription to skip the login queue.

This to say that every day something worse appears until someone gets their hands on this shit and breaks the market as a whole. There's nothing to salvage here.

And voting with our wallets simply doesn't apply since there are a few guys spending thousands of dollars daily on this crap that basically mantain the entire system up and running.

SIDE NOTE: p2w as everything has various degrees. That's why in some games is "tolerated" - because f2p or low spending players can have substantial amounts of fun and a a quality product. The major issue to me is not even p2w by itself but the fact everything is built up in the most convoluted way possible because devs know well that putting everything on a store with disclosed prices and chances will drive away most people. Who the fuck is going to buy a 5star D.I gem if it was in the store at a 5k$ price tag (we know someone will do it).

[Elim Garak]

Who gives a fuck about making a good game or having terrible backlash - you just need a handful of heavy spenders and you're going to rake up millions.

And here lies the inherent problem with that kind of reasoning.

No. One. Will. Pay. In. A. Game. They. Do. Not. Enjoy. Period.

If players enjoy the game - it's objectively good for its audience.

[Coldkil]

And here lies the inherent problem with that kind of reasoning.

No. One. Will. Pay. In. A. Game. They. Do. Not. Enjoy. Period.

If players enjoy the game - it's objectively good for its audience.

What you wrote is the defintion of an opinion. Any game will be subjectively good for the people who enjoy it. That's a basic fact and we're not talking about this.

We're talking about the fact that the mobile market is like it is because most players on the platform are clueless about videogames in general, and the fact that producing one of these games costs much less, while getting way higher net results because they don't need to rely on being good games. They just need to hook people with money and poor judgement to spend as much as possible.

The actual quality of the game has nothing to do with this. But the trend is clear that since product quality doesn't matter a lot, the less you need the better since you will spend less resources on it.

[Elim Garak]

What you wrote is the defintion of an opinion. Any game will be subjectively good for the people who enjoy it. That's a basic fact and we're not talking about this.

We're talking about the fact that the mobile market is like it is because most players on the platform are clueless about videogames in general, and the fact that producing one of these games costs much less, while getting way higher net results because they don't need to rely on being good games. They just need to hook people with money and poor judgement to spend as much as possible.

The actual quality of the game has nothing to do with this. But the trend is clear that since product quality doesn't matter a lot, the less you need the better since you will spend less resources on it.

It's like you haven't even read. It's not an opinion. It's a fact that people don't play games they don't enjoy. Not to mention PAY.
And there's no such game that is universally enjoyed by 100% of people, not even 50% of people. There are different markets and niches. And the game is good if it's enjoyed by its NICHE.

Just because you don't like a particular game - doesn't mean it's a bad game. THAT would be just your opinion.

And it's not easier to make a good mobile game.

It's just F2P games EARN more. Even on PC.

[VinceVega]

I'm not specifically talking about a specific dumpster fire that recently launched. Every time someone complains about a big popular game being pay to win, or even having a giant cash shop of cosmetics, there's always a large group of people who says "Well that's just how it is, mobile games need to make money!"

But see, there are mobile games that are one time purchases that make tons of money.

So WHY is pay to win, or cash shop NECESSARY/EXPECTED of a mobile game?

The most immediate obvious answer is because that's how the east monetized their games in the early proliferation of smart phones. But I'm not asking a surface level "why". I'm asking a deep why.

Why can't the standard for mobile games be one time purchase games? Why does everyone make the excuse that if it's a mobile game, that justifies cash grabs?

And for the life of me, I can't think of a suitable response that isn't countered by something else.

"Well they need to make money!"
One time sale games make money.

"Because it's part of this country's culture!"
OK? I don't see why the rest of us need to be alright with what is effectively gambling but with no chance of getting your money back.

"If they don't monetize like this they'll lose money!"
Then stop making shitty menu based games with endless time sinks solely designed to suck money out of players, and make games people actually enjoy playing? If a game is good, it won't lose money.

Give me a GOOD justification for why we should simply be fine with such things. A game being a mobile game is not a good justification. Because as we know, predatory monetization has been wriggling its way into PC gaming for the last 10 years. So once most PC games have tons of microtransactions, what's going to be the excuse then? When "It's a mobile game bro," is no longer an excuse you can use .

I don't mind some few games having this. Back in the mid 2010's, these games were rare but the whales had their playgrounds and they played in them. My problem is how this sort of monetization model is proliferating into every console and every genre.

To be frank, a game being a mobile game is not proper justification, and yet so many act like it is.


Ultimately, I do realize that a mobile cash grab is a lot "safer" for the investors. Investors know these kinds of game will almost always make their money back because fools and their money are easily parted. Investors have seen the past of gaming, where some really bad games lose a lot of money when received poorly. Just look at D:I, it's one of the worst games in history and it made back all of the money spent on development on day 1. I suppose my real question here is, why are game consumers okay with this?

And for those of you who love capitalism/free market quackery, the entire concept is that if you make a better product than your competitors, you succeed, and if you make a shitty product, you fail. That's often the core tenet of the church of capitalism. So why are the capitalism bros okay with a system that turns that on its head?

In before some mouth breather goes "BET YOU'RE JUST POOR"
I'm not, and welcome to ignore

They don but they do you feeling me?^^

Honestly it doesn't matter for the devs. Most mobile developers are only or primarily doing mobil games. Mobile gamers are not players who... interconnect much. They play and that is it. No forums or big youtubers or a community who can create outrage.
1 Whale is worth 10000 regular players if not waaaaay more.

There is no outrage that candycrush is pay 2 win or any other game because the players don't care.
Immortal is different. The main playerbase DOES care because they are mainly PC gamers. It is not intended but i comes with the IP.

Devs try to move the Pay 2 Win aspect of mobiles into general gameing... see Genshin Impact....

[Witchblade77]

there's this mobile game I have been playing for some time, mind you its not exactly a competitive, but some people make it competitive anyways. I'm in a super casual clan there, so we get bracketed against other casuals and even win sometimes. they generally sell 2 things in a shop and 1 extra during competitions. cosmetics that are functionally identical to stuff you can earn through normal gameplay, but has unique looks and energy if you want to play extra and extra help during competitions. you also tend to build up energy for free and honestly you have to play a LOT to have to actualy buy more energy. some people do. but... and here is the thing. winning just rewards you unique cosmetics. the gameplay itself? is pure human skill. that extra help during competitions? is not necessary, you CAN just win entirely on pure skill and planning.

yes I have spent money on it. I freaking love cosmetics. I mean... I gave Bethesda several hundred dollars above my subscription and box purchases because I wanted specific cash only houses that functionally do not do anything differently from the houses you can get just by playing the game. they just looked freaking cool and I wanted to have them.

it really seems like you all are talking about mobile games from as much of a perspective of an outsider as the people you are accusing of being disgruntled pc gamers who do not understand how mobile games work.

here is the fun fact. mobile games DO in fact have dedicated fanbases complete with forums, their own strategy websites, people giving a lot of feedback and YES complaining about design decisions that their favorite game might be making. they get heavily into it, they get involved (speaking from experience) a lot of mobile games are starting to attach to facebook as a way to allow you to save your progress between multiple mobile devices (cloud saving) and they have official facebook presence where you can and people do comment on their news posts, patch notes, etc - some also have official discord channels you can join in addition to in game clans having their own discord channels. a lot of the mobile game forums are reddit subforums. and they are ACTIVE - that is in addition to dedicated websites ala wowhead etc.

mobile gamers ARE gamers. to think otherwise is shortsighted snobbery. and trust me, mobile gamers do not like pay to win and complain about it all the time. copiously. sometimes in youtube videos and ticktocks in addition to those reddit posts, and facebook comments.

and... as I said... mobile games do NOT need to be pay to win to make a ton of money. they chose it because a lot of people by nature are competitive enough to engage in it. its the same motivation that drives the desire to buy shit on creditcard you do not need or cannot afford - just to one up your next door neighbor and show those damn Joneses that they got nothing on you. its the drive that gets people to pay for cosmetics. games are pay to win because its another avenue to increase profits, not because there is not way to profit without it.

[Yriel]

mobile gamers ARE gamers.

This is just identity politics bs anyway.

Video games are one of my big hobbies but i never felt being part of some group, i don't have a special attitude towards someone because he plays games. In the same way i'm doing a lot of bicycling, too, because it's fun and a great way to get around in the city but i never considered myself a "cyclist" or something.
The gaming press really pushed this "gamers" stuff but it's really nonsense imo.
Who cares if someone considers mobile gamers "gamers"? What does that change for anyone?