SCOTUS removes Roe V Wade

[david0925]

@Endus

I respect your opinion more than most on here. But here is the thing, we have gone round and round on that repeatedly on multiple threads derailing it with this and it gets nowhere.

No one will budge and it’s not productive at all and derails at this point.

The voters have a small about of blame to take and I openly admit that but not the bulk of it or even close to it which people here can’t seem to admit.

Rehashing this 20 times won’t do anything or get us anywhere at this point.

We aren't looking for people who are hurt to defend themselves in this thread. We are making a point so that people do get out and vote because with every little ground you give to the Republicans, the more rules they'll rig, and it'll be even harder the next time.

It seems you are super sensitive about 2016. If you are voting right now for every session, that's great; that's the goal and the point. We don't need you to admit guilt (if you think you are at fault) OR tell us every time that it's not your fault (if you don't think you are). This is not meant to be a "gotcha". It doesn't matter either way, as long as you're voting. But we need to constantly remind everyone why we are in this shit position to start with, in case we get into another "i don't want to vote because X is not my candidate" situation, which happens EVERY SINGLE election because Liberals, especially young ones, have unreasonable expectations for the world and often contribute to the WORST to happen, by not voting on "the least bad"

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Frankly, breaking down the arguments of those who chose not to get involved in 2016/2020 is probably the best possible way to get more people to get out and vote in 2022 and 2024. Which, if they don't shift to full-on election fraud with the tacit permission of SCOTUS, may be the only real way to forestall all this.

So yeah; sue us for wanting to foster greater involvement in the electoral process to try and keep things like the current collapse into Evangelical Christian nationalist fascism from getting any worse.

It isn't even a de-rail. It's about action on this exact topic. If you're telling me that the mid-term elections aren't important in addressing getting abortion rights back on the table, I'm gonna ask what the fuck you're smoking.

Exactly. We made it very clear why we are talking about it and how it is -extremely- related. If you are too sensitive to acknowledge you can participate in other aspects of the discussion without addressing it. It's actually kind of pathetic that every time 2016 is brought up, again for a reason, you get super sensitive about it; just don't engage.

[Ivanstone]

If you cannot get your campaign promises done (campaign promises that were tacitly endorsed by establishment when they voted to have Obama be their candidate), then you do not deserve votes. Sorry, that's all there is to it. If the Democrats cannot or will not get their voters' wishes through Congress, then I don't blame anyone that becomes disillusioned and stops voting for them. Especially not when they can see just how much the Republicans can get done with much less.

And what does the GOP want to get done? Tax cuts which don’t require a supermajority and activist judges which also don’t require a supermajority. The GOP has very few goals that need to be accomplished at the federal level. And currently winning a Senate majority is not easy for the Dems.

There’s plenty of things the Dems aren’t great at but they’re facing an uphill battle to get anything done.

[unfilteredJW]

Nah, it is not that a myth. It is a trend quite easily observable. It happens in most election, and the same was right before the "boomer generation".

This is a false statement and can be summarily dismissed.

Unless you have something besides anecdotes.

[david0925]

Jesus Christ can we stop rehashing 2016 as if scolding the relativity small portion of Bernie voters who didn't vote for Clinton will change anything?

It may not even be the Bernie bros but the swing state people because they are butthurt she didn't campaign in their states?

If someone lived in a Deep-Red state where, thanks to the garbage system of EC, even if they got out it would not have mattered, it would be slightly more acceptable.
If someone lived in a battle-ground state where, again thanks to the garbage system of EC, if you didn't vote because "fuck Hilary/Demo for whatever reason" despite agreeing that Republican is worse, they are part of the problem.

Republican is already things harder for them to lose when they have been the minority for the past 20 year, let's not help them.

[Fugus]

@david0925

Not so much as me being sensitive about it, just been a part of many times where we turn 5+ pages onto a referendum on the 2016 election where too many people act like it’s solely the voter at the end while ignoring all the lead up to the election that lead up to that point.

As I said before, I wrote Sanders name in rather than vote for Clinton. After she pulled and don’t regret it so no real thing for me there.

Bringing it up 20 times and getting nowhere and derailing threads repeatedly though is counter productive at this point and is really no better than what tehdang does at this point though.

It’s the reason why I don’t bother talking about the topic anymore than I have to at this point while pointing out that the moderation has told them to stop turning multiple threads into a referendum on Clinton and 2016. It’s pointless and useless as neither side will budge.

[uuuhname]

This is a false statement and can be summarily dismissed.

Unless you have something besides anecdotes.

it's a trend in that most people who are left leaning tend to die younger than rich or middle class conservatives. that's literally all it is.

[david0925]

And what does the GOP want to get done? Tax cuts which don’t require a supermajority and activist judges which also don’t require a supermajority. The GOP has very few goals that need to be accomplished at the federal level. And currently winning a Senate majority is not easy for the Dems.

There’s plenty of things the Dems aren’t great at but they’re facing an uphill battle to get anything done.

Yep. I don't think you find very many people that openly praise the Dems and often their supporter critique them the hardest. But kicking them out wont' make them come back with better plans because while they may or may not be working on that, Republicans will use their X years to make policies against people who aren't white, male, straight, Christian, and rich.

If people are ok with this happening while they sit at home because their preferred candidates didn't win the primaries (or in some people's case, bored enough to go stand in line and vote for nobody), that's their choice; it just sucks that some people have to suffer for that.

[Canpinter]

It may not even be the Bernie bros but the swing state people because they are butthurt she didn't campaign in their states?

If someone lived in a Deep-Red state where, thanks to the garbage system of EC, even if they got out it would not have mattered, it would be slightly more acceptable.
If someone lived in a battle-ground state where, again thanks to the garbage system of EC, if you didn't vote because "fuck Hilary/Demo for whatever reason" despite agreeing that Republican is worse, they are part of the problem.

Republican is already things harder for them to lose when they have been the minority for the past 20 year, let's not help them.

I live in Wisconsin and while I know this is just an anecdote but I know only one person who didn't vote for Clinton because of they supported Bernie, but I know 4 who didn't vote for Clinton because they assumed she would win easily.

[david0925]

I live in Wisconsin and while I know this is just an anecdote but I know only one person who didn't vote for Clinton because of they supported Bernie, but I know 4 who didn't vote for Clinton because they assumed she would win easily.

Yeah, the "i can just be lazy because other people will do my work for me thanks to the garbage EC system" is something that definitely exist but I failed to address earlier. Hopefully with that loss this will never be the mentality ever again.

[Canpinter]

Yeah, the "i can just be lazy because other people will do my work for me thanks to the garbage EC system" is something that definitely exist but I failed to address earlier. Hopefully with that loss this will never be the mentality ever again.

Don't count on it 2 of those people I mentioned still to this day rant about Bernie bros costing Clinton the election.

[Endus]

We don't need you to admit guilt (if you think you are at fault) OR tell us every time that it's not your fault (if you don't think you are). This is not meant to be a "gotcha". It doesn't matter either way, as long as you're voting.

Bingo.

I couldn't care less about people's personal anecdotes as to why they want to feel justified. The fact remains; it contributed to Trump's victory then, and the same attitude will lead to further Republican wins in 2022 and 2024. I don't care if you quietly stew at home and then realize "fuck, maybe that Endus and david0925 guys have a point, I'm gonna have to vote responsibly this year" and follow through, and never admit it where we can see it. Literally do not care. It is not and was never about that. It's about mobilizing voters and having their votes matter.

@david0925

Not so much as me being sensitive about it, just been a part of many times where we turn 5+ pages onto a referendum on the 2016 election where too many people act like it’s solely the voter at the end while ignoring all the lead up to the election that lead up to that point.

As I said before, I wrote Sanders name in rather than vote for Clinton. After she pulled and don’t regret it so no real thing for me there.

Bringing it up 20 times and getting nowhere and derailing threads repeatedly though is counter productive at this point and is really no better than what tehdang does at this point though.

It’s the reason why I don’t bother talking about the topic anymore than I have to at this point while pointing out that the moderation has told them to stop turning multiple threads into a referendum on Clinton and 2016. It’s pointless and useless as neither side will budge.

The problem is someone mentions "people who sat out in 2016 shouldn't have, and they need to start voting in 2022 and 2024", you always jump in to defend yourself personally, as if it was all a directed personal attack on you. That's what makes it "all about you". Your own need to defend your choices, even when you're not called out directly.

Yes, it's counter productive and your defending those choices derails threads. But that's not a problem with discussing voter behaviour. That's a problem with you making it personal.

[Forogil]

it's a trend in that most people who are left leaning tend to die younger than rich or middle class conservatives. that's literally all it is.

Wrong.

It's been observed in many countries and the trend starts before a significant part of the population dies.
Additionally some suggest that university education is correlated with being more liberal - and university education is also correlated with living longer. (However, other studies that when people earn more through education (depends on the circumstances) they move to the right economically.) Obviously it's not that everyone changes, but some have the rough guide that as people age they are conservative and keep their ideological beliefs - or they change and become conservatives :-)

[Fugus]

The problem is someone mentions "people who sat out in 2016 shouldn't have, and they need to start voting in 2022 and 2024", you always jump in to defend yourself personally, as if it was all a directed personal attack on you. That's what makes it "all about you". Your own need to defend your choices, even when you're not called out directly.

Yes, it's counter productive and your defending those choices derails threads. But that's not a problem with discussing voter behaviour. That's a problem with you making it personal.

I keep defending all the voters who did the same as it wasn’t on them to do it.

It’s calling out all the voters who did that of which I was one.

It’s not me defending the voters that’s derailing anymore than blaming all the voters who didn’t vote for her even if they voted down ballot Democrat elsewhere.

Blaming those who voted for Trump is definitely valid and deserving, blaming because you didn’t vote for a candidate because they ran you off is another.

[Endus]

Blaming those who voted for Trump is definitely valid and deserving, blaming because you didn’t vote for a candidate because they ran you off is another.

There, in bold, is where you want to make it all about you, and derail the topic.

That is where it goes off the rails. You deflect from the point, to try and defend your own personal choices. That's the derail. You're doing it right now.

[uuuhname]

Wrong.

It's been observed in many countries and the trend starts before a significant part of the population dies.
Additionally some suggest that university education is correlated with being more liberal - and university education is also correlated with living longer. (However, other studies that when people earn more through education (depends on the circumstances) they move to the right economically.) Obviously it's not that everyone changes, but some have the rough guide that as people age they are conservative and keep their ideological beliefs - or they change and become conservatives :-)

*leans into the mic*
WRONG.

most studies on the subject show political attitudes stay the same across people's lifetimes. so again this idea that people who start off liberal/left and become right wing and conservative as they get older, without any additional context is. still. a. myth.

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regardless, what this has to do with abortion rights is totally lost on me.

[Gestopft]

*leans into the mic*
WRONG.

most studies on the subject show political attitudes stay the same across people's lifetimes. so again this idea that people who start off liberal/left and become right wing and conservative as they get older, without any additional context is. still. a. myth.

Agree. I think the phenomenon is more about the way the issues change than the people.

[OnlineSamantha]

That's the problem with the liberal worldview, you think voting solves everything. You can't vote yourself out of fascism like we see in the US because they are willing to lie and cheat and steal and do whatever else is necessary to cement their power. Protests are needed to make the people in power afraid. Name a single right that has been granted without violent acts, and I will budge on this point. The protests outside the Supreme Court Justices' houses were a great start, and they should've been kept up.

I also feel the need to clarify here ahead of time. I am not saying voting never works and it shouldn't be done, but it is not the only thing that should be done, and it is certainly not enough on its own when democracy* is on its last legs. I don't live in the US so I didn't vote for either candidate, and I would've voted for Bernie over Hillary over Trump if I could, so I am not defending those who did not vote. Rather, I am attacking the notion that Bernie Bros or Hillary not appealing enough to prospective voters deserve any more hatred than the Democratic establishment.

*Insofar as the US has ever been a real democracy, which is, frankly, debatable.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I keep defending all the voters who did the same as it wasn’t on them to do it.

It’s calling out all the voters who did that of which I was one.

It’s not me defending the voters that’s derailing anymore than blaming all the voters who didn’t vote for her even if they voted down ballot Democrat elsewhere.

Blaming those who voted for Trump is definitely valid and deserving, blaming because you didn’t vote for a candidate because they ran you off is another.

If there is a consequential election and someone makes the decision to either not participate or throw away their vote, they've made a choice. In the case of the 2016 election, people made a choice to not support Clinton by both actively campaigning for people not to vote for her as well as not voting for her themselves. The consequence of this choice was that Trump was able to win the election, he was able to sit three justices on the SCOTUS, and these seats ended up shifting the balance of power towards the Republicans and has now led to the dismantling of abortion protections and questions about repealing other protections, such as homosexual marriage.

The SCOTUS does not operate in a vacuum, and we're going to see the Republican justices run as far as they can while they maintain power. The irony in this situation being that the people who labelled themselves as "Left", "Progressive", or any other name to convey they're farther left than Neo-Liberal are themselves partially responsible for the dismantling of abortion rights for women. This isn't to say that this absolves Republican voters of the part they've played, but constantly redirecting to them and saying "they did it" is just a whataboutism (i.e.: "I know we didn't vote, but what about the people who voted for Republicans").

I would even go so far as to say that people who protested Clinton by deciding to not vote or by throwing away their votes are arguably worse than the Republican voters. For them it's no longer a case of simple ignorance but an intentional and willful attempt to make a statement at the risk of American stability and social progress made over decades. It was the voter equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum, and now many of these individuals are complaining about the consequences of a situation they helped make (i.e.: Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes).

[Endus]

*leans into the mic*
WRONG.

most studies on the subject show political attitudes stay the same across people's lifetimes. so again this idea that people who start off liberal/left and become right wing and conservative as they get older, without any additional context is. still. a. myth.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1041104

Showed that people tend to stay relatively the same. Where there seemed to be some Conservative drift, it was identifiable as an individual stability while society became more liberal around that individual, rather than any actual rightward drift towards conservativism.

There's literally never been any real evidence supporting that bit of folk wisdom.

[Kronik85]

If there is a consequential election and someone makes the decision to either not participate or throw away their vote, they've made a choice. In the case of the 2016 election, people made a choice to not support Clinton by both actively campaigning for people not to vote for her as well as not voting for her themselves. The consequence of this choice was that Trump was able to win the election, he was able to sit three justices on the SCOTUS, and these seats ended up shifting the balance of power towards the Republicans and has now led to the dismantling of abortion protections and questions about repealing other protections, such as homosexual marriage.

The SCOTUS does not operate in a vacuum, and we're going to see the Republican justices run as far as they can while they maintain power. The irony in this situation being that the people who labelled themselves as "Left", "Progressive", or any other name to convey they're farther left than Neo-Liberal are themselves partially responsible for the dismantling of abortion rights for women. This isn't to say that this absolves Republican voters of the part they've played, but constantly redirecting to them and saying "they did it" is just a whataboutism (i.e.: "I know we didn't vote, but what about the people who voted for Republicans").

I would even go so far as to say that people who protested Clinton by deciding to not vote or by throwing away their votes are arguably worse than the Republican voters. For them it's no longer a case of simple ignorance but an intentional and willful attempt to make a statement at the risk of American stability and social progress made over decades. It was the voter equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum, and now many of these individuals are complaining about the consequences of a situation they helped make (i.e.: Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes).

If you are playing the game properly then your time to vote for your preferred candidate in the American system is during the primaries. If your candidate loses you shrug it off and then vote for your team in the Election proper.

However in saying that, there is an enormous amount of frustration being generated when your guy never wins and never will win. There is a dissonance when taking about disenfranchising voters being bad, and then in the same sentence telling people that they will always just have to suck it up and play harm reduction because their preferred candidates will never make it to the final ballot.

Clinton was the worst candidate at the worst time and will forever serve as an example of the Democratic Establishments hubris.