Is Sepulcher the most difficult raid tier ever?

[jeezusisacasual]

Source? Preferably with statistics info.



It will just make mythic raids pointless which will lead to mythic guilds disbanding. So nope.

So we will just assume no one quit and the playerbase is the exact same as it was during other periods in WoW's lifetime then this is absolutely abysmal and should be rebalanced and more likely rebranded to actually get folks to take that step into it unless you want the accountants to come for the cost analysis of a mode that is seeing the least retention rates. The numbers can be both ways and in a world that is largely cut-throat capitalistic guess which will be on the chopping block unless more people are nudged into it.

We have 377 guilds that have cleared Mythic Jailer as of July 2nd, it launched March 8th. Which is 116 days.

the 377 guild to clear Mythic Sylvanas was done on September 16th, which was 65 days. But to give you a better perspective the guild Rubicon on Barthilas Oceanic killed Mythic Sylvanas on October 6th which was 85 days but was kill number 598 but hey keep on slurping down the Kool-Aid that everyone loves raiding and that it will keep WoW afloat while we have evidence that less and less people are willing to put up with the bullshit that it demands for 2022.

The.Raid.Is.To.Damn.Hard with only using very little amounts of evidence but perhaps Sylvanas is to easy one would say we can go back to Castle Nathria to further prove a point to you if you would like unless EVERY ONE OF THOSE PLAYERS just got worse because we dont know if we have more or less players but we have to assume its even as thats all we have.

But for myself i just get KSM and fuck off until the next season as i cant be assed to spend more time then that on the game that does not respect my time. Another thing if they gut the Mythic Plus system to entice raiding more then i myself and a few of my mates would just not come back so its up to them to make me want to raid not pride or anything else. They have 17 years of experience with this so they had to know that the same thing happened when Cataclysm Dungeons got to be to hard that it would destroy their playerbase.

[Aresk]

Rygelon, Dark Eruption is the tank soak? Think they coulda gotten away with a smaller nerf, if you’re gonna nerf it by 75% heh why not just remove it completely?

Dark Eruption is the raid-wide AoE that happens if Dark Eclipse isn't cleansed in the pools left by the stellar adds. Basically one or two DPS failing a mechanic can no longer wipe the raid.

[Popastique]

So we will just assume no one quit and the playerbase is the exact same as it was during other periods in WoW's lifetime then this is absolutely abysmal and should be rebalanced and more likely rebranded to actually get folks to take that step into it unless you want the accountants to come for the cost analysis of a mode that is seeing the least retention rates. The numbers can be both ways and in a world that is largely cut-throat capitalistic guess which will be on the chopping block unless more people are nudged into it.

We have 377 guilds that have cleared Mythic Jailer as of July 2nd, it launched March 8th. Which is 116 days.

the 377 guild to clear Mythic Sylvanas was done on September 16th, which was 65 days. But to give you a better perspective the guild Rubicon on Barthilas Oceanic killed Mythic Sylvanas on October 6th which was 85 days but was kill number 598 but hey keep on slurping down the Kool-Aid that everyone loves raiding and that it will keep WoW afloat while we have evidence that less and less people are willing to put up with the bullshit that it demands for 2022.

The.Raid.Is.To.Damn.Hard with only using very little amounts of evidence but perhaps Sylvanas is to easy one would say we can go back to Castle Nathria to further prove a point to you if you would like unless EVERY ONE OF THOSE PLAYERS just got worse because we dont know if we have more or less players but we have to assume its even as thats all we have.

But for myself i just get KSM and fuck off until the next season as i cant be assed to spend more time then that on the game that does not respect my time. Another thing if they gut the Mythic Plus system to entice raiding more then i myself and a few of my mates would just not come back so its up to them to make me want to raid not pride or anything else. They have 17 years of experience with this so they had to know that the same thing happened when Cataclysm Dungeons got to be to hard that it would destroy their playerbase.

Of course playerbase is not getting bigger, but stating that *raiding participation is down almost 80%* across all difficulties is completely different thing which needs to be supported by facts. You can't just take random numbers out of your head and present them like it was proven before. Well you can, but it won't be trusted.

And one thing is discussing how difficulty should be balanced, what should be changed - Completely other thing is telling that mythic raids should be done in a few hours, making it as easy as heroic and downright deleting mythic difficulty.

I am in for changes to mythic raiding, but they need to be properly done and thought-out.

[kingj56]

Hard to say definitively but from dataforazeroth.com only 5% of the player base has AOTC, .2% for Cutting Edge. Raid tier isnt over yet so its hard to say. However if its this low already then I wont hold out hope.

[jeezusisacasual]

Of course playerbase is not getting bigger, but stating that *raiding participation is down almost 80%* across all difficulties is completely different thing which needs to be supported by facts. You can't just take random numbers out of your head and present them like it was proven before. Well you can, but it won't be trusted.

And one thing is discussing how difficulty should be balanced, what should be changed - Completely other thing is telling that mythic raids should be done in a few hours, making it as easy as heroic and downright deleting mythic difficulty.

I am in for changes to mythic raiding, but they need to be properly done and thought-out.

I think its more then likely that raiding participation is much lower then previously thought ( atleast at the Mythic level ) and is more then likely for a few different reasons then one singular problem. Is Mythic Raiding to hard? I tend to agree with the pass / fail mechanics and the lack of over gearing along with no more real temporary power systems that will bring up the lower rung of those who would squeak by. Now will this have lasting damage? Because i can only hope that people forget about this current tier and do not go into the opening tier of Dragonflight with the same mental hangups regarding raiding.

In my own opinion i would think that doing a 7 min long + dance needs to be saved for only 1 boss period and likely the last boss. I would also say they need to find a way to make the fights easier week over week instead of balancing around max gear from the very start, from either a power creep nerf like 5% more damage every week or whatever. This will allow re-clears to be faster much faster like how SoO became after full gear.

I would also suggest that classes that make the fight easier should not be required for more then 1 or 2 fights an entire tier or move those select abilities to more classes in some shape or another so you do not feel like well screw it we are not raiding because our priest is vacation. The problem with indivuality is that it falls apart the moment people need to start missing or people just stop playing etc and that is a problem when you want to bring in new players to the event when they feel like whelp i picked the wrong one.

Anything that makes the barrier to entry easier / quicker because the retention rate is way to low.

[Thunderball]

Or it will actually promote more RWF competition as currently theres only 2 guilds? Ppl getting more loot will lead to guilds disbanding doesnt make sense, if anything it attracts more players as it sends the message that raiding is accessible for all, not 1% of the playerbase.

The games direction needs to be towards accessibility, not exclusivity, which as seen historically hasnt worked.

Noone wants to raid or especially race in easy raids. Raid just become loot pinatas. Accessible has nothing to do with easy. Easier to recruit people to guilds, being able to raid with Alliance characters, improving game UI so you dont need a weakaura for everything? Sure, but making it easier? For what? There are already too many difficulties as it is, so pick your poison.

[Popastique]

I think its more then likely that raiding participation is much lower then previously thought ( atleast at the Mythic level ) and is more then likely for a few different reasons then one singular problem. Is Mythic Raiding to hard? I tend to agree with the pass / fail mechanics and the lack of over gearing along with no more real temporary power systems that will bring up the lower rung of those who would squeak by. Now will this have lasting damage? Because i can only hope that people forget about this current tier and do not go into the opening tier of Dragonflight with the same mental hangups regarding raiding.

In my own opinion i would think that doing a 7 min long + dance needs to be saved for only 1 boss period and likely the last boss. I would also say they need to find a way to make the fights easier week over week instead of balancing around max gear from the very start, from either a power creep nerf like 5% more damage every week or whatever. This will allow re-clears to be faster much faster like how SoO became after full gear.

I would also suggest that classes that make the fight easier should not be required for more then 1 or 2 fights an entire tier or move those select abilities to more classes in some shape or another so you do not feel like well screw it we are not raiding because our priest is vacation. The problem with indivuality is that it falls apart the moment people need to start missing or people just stop playing etc and that is a problem when you want to bring in new players to the event when they feel like whelp i picked the wrong one.

Anything that makes the barrier to entry easier / quicker because the retention rate is way to low.

I agree that long fights should not happen often, and even when long fights do happen - wouldn't it be better for them to have Fallen Avatar ( Legion raid ) like mechanic, so you can try all the boss phases separately? ( except probably some secret mythic phase ).
5% buffs like in ICC wouldn't actually hurt but again need to be balanced, so the raid doesn't turn into a pushover for pugs. Coz that pretty much what happened in ICC, not that it was a tough raid or anything.

[Nymrohd]

No because there weren't any systems buffs along the way to naturally nerf the content, but you know people are all butthurt because a streamer said systems are bad

There is always the system of progressive buffs/debuffs to the raid with a mechanic instead of actual nerfs that we had for multiple raid tiers.

[Gaidax]

We got CE like 2 weeks ago with our 2 evenings per week guild.

Overall I think after all the nerfs raid became piss easy. Halondrus and Anduin got destroyed and the rest were not particularly hard save Rygelon maybe and still got nerfed.

With the upcoming nerf to Jailer he'd probably be a free kill really.

[jeezusisacasual]

I agree that long fights should not happen often, and even when long fights do happen - wouldn't it be better for them to have Fallen Avatar ( Legion raid ) like mechanic, so you can try all the boss phases separately? ( except probably some secret mythic phase ).
5% buffs like in ICC wouldn't actually hurt but again need to be balanced, so the raid doesn't turn into a pushover for pugs. Coz that pretty much what happened in ICC, not that it was a tough raid or anything.

I tend to think what is easy for one is hard to another but they have to fix something since raiding is declining very quickly in terms of participation and my worry is that once people stop they just wont go back leading to the death of an end game pillar. How blizzard addresses or fixes this is going to be extremely important as it appears the majority of those whom raid just are not good enough or they are not willing to swap to the stronger / more desirable specs.

[ohwell]

There is always the system of progressive buffs/debuffs to the raid with a mechanic instead of actual nerfs that we had for multiple raid tiers.

There wasn't one this tier. I've explained it MULTIPLE times in several threads. Nathria world first occurred before max renown hence it was doable without full soulbind traits. Sanctum was cleared before max renown as well. The only thing close this tier was double legendary which the world first happened after it was unlocked. So players were only given item level bumps this tier compared to the world first whereas every other tier there were other increases in player power.

[crusadernero]

Hard to say definitively but from dataforazeroth.com only 5% of the player base has AOTC, .2% for Cutting Edge. Raid tier isnt over yet so its hard to say. However if its this low already then I wont hold out hope.

If those numbers holds up, that should tell Blizzard everything they need to know. Really hard raids is a waste of dev time for the overall playerbase. once upon a time(and now in the re-releases), Blizzard had a fine enough difficulty. Most people could do engage in it and get cool rewards. Now its tryhards in m+ & mythic raids its about. lol.

[Jervaise]

I play in a 2-day mythic raiding guild for a while now, and this has been the toughest tier so far.

The main reason for difficulty is that there are multiple end raid tier bosses and for the last 2 months or so we have been extending - doing one boss at a time. 2 days mean we don't have time to clear and progress at the same time, and has been very boring to progress non-stop for so long.

Some farm in between is better.

[kingj56]

If those numbers holds up, that should tell Blizzard everything they need to know. Really hard raids is a waste of dev time for the overall playerbase. once upon a time(and now in the re-releases), Blizzard had a fine enough difficulty. Most people could do engage in it and get cool rewards. Now its tryhards in m+ & mythic raids its about. lol.

The problem is, the vocal minority CRIES about things being easy and world first races being over in a week or less. And many of the general player base cries with them even tho MOST of them NEVER touch anything higher than heroic if that. AOTC runs are consistently at 17% of the player base and Cutting edge at 5% or less. People are dumbaf.

[enigma77]

It's an extreme outlier for various reasons, yes.

Terrible, frustrating raid tier. Glad we're done soon, then this raid goes straight to the ash heap of history, where it belongs.

[garicasha]

I dunno because it really wasn’t that bad a raid tier, Anduin, Rygelon, and Jailer are all pretty cool fights, and the easy bosses were all fine too.

But a real casual guild that barely gets AotC each tier is (or was) probably looking at 75-125 wipes on Anduin, Lords, Rygelon, and Jailer that’s a lot for AotC.

The one thing that makes me laugh though…looking at the poll and seeing the 25-some votes for “No, this wasn’t the hardest tier ever.”

[crusadernero]

The problem is, the vocal minority CRIES about things being easy and world first races being over in a week or less. And many of the general player base cries with them even tho MOST of them NEVER touch anything higher than heroic if that. AOTC runs are consistently at 17% of the player base and Cutting edge at 5% or less. People are dumbaf.

RWF is cool when it happens, but its over rather quickly and we are left back with literally nothing. Cool, someone killed this insane boss with 12398761 mechanics, while 99% of the playerbase wont even experience it.

Feels like the raiding scene consists of those that actually are good in m+ & mythic raids, and those that think they are as good as them. As the numbers show, there really aint many of them.

The game would be much better of stripping down the difficulties(4 now) and make raiding overall much more accessible. It clearly shows that most people dont inspire to become a mythic raider, ppl quit long before that.

THere used to be a time when people would look at someone with awesome gear and think "yeah, I want that" and went on and got it too and felt great. That doesnt happen alot anymore and part of the reasons is probably cause we have LFR. Once you have done the content, its going to take much more from a player to do the same thing again but only more difficult.

Or they gotta at the very least give more content outside of m+ & raiding. Something that Blizzard in uncapable of doing.

- - - Updated - - -

It's an extreme outlier for various reasons, yes.

Terrible, frustrating raid tier. Glad we're done soon, then this raid goes straight to the ash heap of history, where it belongs.

Theres way to many raid tiers that can be put into that category. For whatever reason, people dislike it. It clearly also shows that LFR aint that much of a good thing either. one would think everyone would be happy to see the raids no? But ofc, the rewards are horrid and the gameplay experience can often times be worse.

Blizzard put all this time and effort into making a huge raid, only for it to fail miserably. Remember, this is the vital content that is supposed to keep players playing.

[jeezusisacasual]

RWF is cool when it happens, but its over rather quickly and we are left back with literally nothing. Cool, someone killed this insane boss with 12398761 mechanics, while 99% of the playerbase wont even experience it.

Feels like the raiding scene consists of those that actually are good in m+ & mythic raids, and those that think they are as good as them. As the numbers show, there really aint many of them.

The game would be much better of stripping down the difficulties(4 now) and make raiding overall much more accessible. It clearly shows that most people dont inspire to become a mythic raider, ppl quit long before that.

THere used to be a time when people would look at someone with awesome gear and think "yeah, I want that" and went on and got it too and felt great. That doesnt happen alot anymore and part of the reasons is probably cause we have LFR. Once you have done the content, its going to take much more from a player to do the same thing again but only more difficult.

Or they gotta at the very least give more content outside of m+ & raiding. Something that Blizzard in uncapable of doing.

- - - Updated - - -



Theres way to many raid tiers that can be put into that category. For whatever reason, people dislike it. It clearly also shows that LFR aint that much of a good thing either. one would think everyone would be happy to see the raids no? But ofc, the rewards are horrid and the gameplay experience can often times be worse.

Blizzard put all this time and effort into making a huge raid, only for it to fail miserably. Remember, this is the vital content that is supposed to keep players playing.

I tend to think that most of the gaming landscape has changed over time to either be more accessible or more jump in / jump out and with an ever increasing amount of mechanics that can wipe the raid due to a single person making a mistake it becomes a why bother scenario. Why spend 3 hours raiding and wiping and perhaps pulling out a kill and get nothing for it when i can log onto any FPS and have a 50% win rate right out of the box. Why not spend those 3 hours engaging in a fantastic story with world building like Witcher 3 or Divinity and feel like my time meant something.

Also you have players like myself who used to raid at that level and very well could today but why bother when i can get KSM 3 to 5 weeks into a patch and be done, purely from pugs. Blizzard needs to make raiding feel worthwhile not only in a reward structure but a time commitment structure also, because they are not competing against other MMO's at this point they are competing with video games in general and limited time to boot.

[Advo]

Jailer is probably the hardest mythic boss left in there by a fair margin. Monumentally easier than before, but if your raid team has even 1-2 of 'those raiders' that simply dont get it, youre still going to have a very bad time.

[Popastique]

Jailer is probably the hardest mythic boss left in there by a fair margin. Monumentally easier than before, but if your raid team has even 1-2 of 'those raiders' that simply dont get it, youre still going to have a very bad time.

Hardest? Not anymore. You can get away with countless mistakes after recent nerfs and still get away with a kill.