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  1. #1

    Is skipping content right way to make game alt-friendly?

    Blizzard claim, that ZM content is alt-friendly. And some old content, like Maw intro, is also alt-friendly after some fixes. But it's achieved via allowing players to skip some parts of content after completing them once. Yeah, story part is extremely boring, so it's good, that it can be skipped. And, I guess, it's their way to make content alt-friendly in future xpacks too. But is it right way to make content alt-friendly? I mean, intentionally making content bad, but then allowing players to skip it? May be it would be much better, if Blizzard would use WOD way, i.e. would make content so good, that players would want to replay it again, again and again? Don't you think, that current way of making content is way too...wasteful? Content is made for some niche players, who, let's say, like story. They do it exactly once and then it's wasted.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-07-05 at 07:37 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  2. #2
    Yes, but because it is for the current content where they are tied to mandatory systems for most of the current pve/pvp content.

    What i hope it's a main story quest line purely focused on leveling, where reputations-class halls-side quests are focused on cosmectics, mounts, pets, etc. With the removal of borrowed power systems, that would feel like an extra optional content.

    A simple, yet rich, background history for a new era in Wacraft's universe could help with that too.

  3. #3
    Dunno. I just see 3 ways to make content good for alts:
    1) Catch ups
    2) Replayability
    3) Skipping boring parts

    I just don't think, that skipping is the best way to go. It would be, if it would be combined with replayability. I understand, that some players like to jump right into action and don't like RPish content, so skipping it would be great option for them. I also like options and hate forcing, so I don't want to be hypocrite here. But SL clearly shows, that skipping is used as excuse for making non-replayable content. And this is bad. It takes lots of "my" content away from me. Back in Cata/MOP/WOD times replaying story quests - was one of my favorite kinds of content.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-07-06 at 06:43 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  4. #4
    I usually skip content if I'm questing with friends, or if I find it to be boring.

    How many times did we need to play through the SL introductory quests? The skip for that took way too long.

    Giving the player the option is, I think, the best of both worlds.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperfox View Post
    I usually skip content if I'm questing with friends, or if I find it to be boring.

    How many times did we need to play through the SL introductory quests? The skip for that took way too long.

    Giving the player the option is, I think, the best of both worlds.
    Even shorter answer to highlight problem, I want to talk about: skipping itself isn't bad, using skipping as excuse for making bad content - is.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  6. #6
    Some content is very replayable, some content isn't. Quests and storylines are in the second category. No matter how good questing is, it gets old really quick if you have to replay it each time you want to level a new alt.

    It's like reading a book or watching a movie. Sometimes you want to reread, a certain movie you may want to rewatch all the time, but if you *had* to rewatch Avengers Endgame every time you wanted to watch a new marvel show it would be terrible.

    Dungeons and raids are the quintessential replayable content - many people enjoy levelling new alts specifically to go through them again with a new class.

    So yes. Content skips is one of the most important things blizzard can do to make the game alt friendly.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Even shorter answer to highlight problem, I want to talk about: skipping itself isn't bad, using skipping as excuse for making bad content - is.
    Let me start this by saying, knowing how you act and how retarded you are, that this point is going to fly way over your head regardless...

    Your subjective personal take on what is good and bad content is irrelevant. They could make a quest experience that to you is the best thing ever created and you would play it on 1000 alts every patch.

    I would still only ever quest once and skip it immediatly on alts... or just not play alts. There is not a single game I have ever played that I would optionally level/quest/do story again if I could skip it.

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord
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    they're not intentionally making content bad, what are you talking about? Blizz are just allowing story skips when you have already done the story before. if I am reading a book I tend to do it once and not multiple times; so yeah the skip is a good thing. it's not the only alt friendly thing they have done - sending currency to alts, adding BOA items to vendors like the renown 60 item - there are multiple things they have done this patch and in 9.1.5 that have made things extremely alt friendly. the challenge for Blizzard is to think ahead when it comes to 10.0 and add all the things they did in 9.1.5 and 9.2 in 10.0, as opposed to adding them in later patches.

  9. #9
    Whether content is good or bad is subjective. Personally, I like doing the maw opening. It goes pretty fast, has story and you gain a level. It takes half an hour to one hour depending on how undergeared and slow you are. Yet ppl demanded there be a skip for this. Even with the skip, I still do it.
    So yes - and the reason is because ppl want it that way.

    You talk about WoD. Ppl were using skips (flying from Ashran etc) to bypass the intro to WoD too. They still do (you can skip if you go through portal without getting Khadgar quest).

    Also, ZM bypasses the cypher research timers on alts. So no timegating for that. Plus they have that boa item that increases cypher gain sold by Olea Manu that you can send to alts. It could stand do be more alt friendly - make the research account wide.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2022-07-06 at 07:21 AM.

  10. #10
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Everyone that disagreed with that idea has already quit, so I suppose the answer is yes.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  11. #11
    I would really love if blizz steals 1 element from SWTOR - the small class/spec quest zones. Imagine if in the Maw you had a few sections which were different for each class/spec? Now replaying that wouldnt be as boring as it will be a new experience for you, unless you are leveling the same class.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    But is it right way to make content alt-friendly? I mean, intentionally making content bad, but then allowing players to skip it?
    That's a false premise.

    Blizzard isn't "intentionally making content bad" here. And while I agree in principle that the way to get people to not want to skip things is to make them so good people WANT to do them, there's also serious diminishing returns at work - almost no matter how good you make content, if you've seen it 5 times and they force you to see it a 6th time, it'll just not be that great. That's just a natural consequence of novelty wearing off.

    Also, keep in mind that WoW is a game with very specific focus on a set of particular activities - everything else largely exists to facilitate that. Those faciliatory steps are therefore "worth less" in players' minds than the activities they aim for, and so it's no surprise they'd want to minimize time spent on them, and maximize time spent on the stuff they actually want to be doing.

    Now, I'm not saying that "just add skips" is an ideal solution that fits every scenario; but it's certainly something that can have a lot of value. Could they do things differently? No doubt. If you rethought and redesigned some fundamental aspects of the game, you could change this significantly. But until and unless they decide that's actually worth doing, skips are probably one of the best solutions.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I mean, intentionally making content bad, but then allowing players to skip it?
    It's not bad content, it just doesn't have replay value.

  14. #14
    High Overlord
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    It could/should be like in Diablo 3 where you unlock progress/chapter & since there are so much content since 2005 there should be a story mode to all the dungeons & raids where you do them together with NPC's (& maybe all or most quests/chain quests?). It would be good if Vanilla & each expac where their own chapters with subchapters. Now it is a mess even objectively, I am running around with quests from 5 expacs & the world is dead & chromie time isn't helping much if at all & are confusing.
    Last edited by DookuDookuTree; 2022-07-06 at 08:29 AM.

  15. #15
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    In the current version of WoW, it surely is. But that is not a good thing.

    Content should rarely be something that you want to skip. If you design your game around the concept of having content be relevant, enjoyable and fun throughout an entire expansion (and beyond), then you are just removing fun and enjoyment from the players if you let or make them skip most content. Even the content that most people dislike can be made entertaining or atleast fun within the gameplay, such as trying out new things and systems when doing that content.

    That said, there is some content that are just made to be skipped or just enjoyed a single time, like "cutscene" content which is made to tell the story only or something like Chromie Time, which was a short selfcontained experience.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Content should rarely be something that you want to skip. If you design your game around the concept of having content be relevant, enjoyable and fun throughout an entire expansion (and beyond), then you are just removing fun and enjoyment from the players if you let or make them skip most content.
    But it's not about letting people just skip content, it's about letting them skip REPEATING that content.

    Even amazing content gets stale when you do it for the n-th time. It's not a reflection on the quality of the content if you'd rather not do the same thing ten times on ten different characters.

  17. #17
    Replayability is not Alt-friendliness. Legion was extremely replayable; the experience of leveling was varied due to artifact weapon and class campaigns and at max level you continued to have class specific content, with more added later on plus gameplay that made every effort to enhance class fantasy. But Legion was not particularly alt-friendly, especially at release. There were far too many things you'd have to grind for multiple times and keeping an alt at a very high level for instanced content was not nearly as easy as it was in previous expansions.

    For the content to be replayable, alts need to provide a unique experience. This also will vary on number of alts. For many expansions having one alt on the opposite faction would provide with a lot of replayability since much content was faction specific. But beyond that, replayability was usually low, probably only high when classes had strong visual identities and varied gameplay.

    For the game to be alt-friendly though, it's all about how fast and to what extend an alt can catch up to a main.

  18. #18
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But it's not about letting people just skip content, it's about letting them skip REPEATING that content.

    Even amazing content gets stale when you do it for the n-th time. It's not a reflection on the quality of the content if you'd rather not do the same thing ten times on ten different characters.
    Gaming, nearly at its core, is all about repeating content. We are playing a loop, doing the same things again and again, and finding enjoyment in that. Some of the greatest games of all time, are all about doing the same small amount of specific content again and again, yet having fun while doing it.

    The same thing should and could be with WoW. Just because you are doing the Maw Intro questline 2 times every month with new alts, does not mean that it needs to be boring. If the content is made to be generelly fun and interesting to play, then it does not matter that it is repeating. I have proberly played through the Silverpine Questline like 50 times, yet it is still fun, because the content is made fun.

    So even if things get stale over time( I get that if you do the same content 50 times a day, EVERYTHING will get stale), you can make content resilient by creating unique experiences compared to other parts of the game. Content resilience towards staleness is not directly connected to quality, but its part of quality, to have content that is interesting enough, that you want to do it again, since you don't get an experience like it anywhere else.

    Edit: A good example of this is the start of Mist of Pandaria for the Horde. You start by bombing a temple, shooting down fighters, using a unique forward attack you don't get other places. The same with the Eastern Plaquelands experience, where you have a buddy with at all times. Stuff like that can make every zone, every questline somewhat interesting as it tries to be different then the grind of daily quests.
    Last edited by Flurryfang; 2022-07-06 at 08:53 AM.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  19. #19
    Brewmaster Naoto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Even shorter answer to highlight problem, I want to talk about: skipping itself isn't bad, using skipping as excuse for making bad content - is.
    It has nothing to do with "bad content" because even if they made the best quests in the best zone that everyone loved, ain't nobody loving that shit after doing it 5 times. It's literally impossible for Blizzard to make content nobody will want to skip after half a dozen times so yes, skipping is 100% essential.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Gaming, nearly at its core, is all about repeating content.
    That's a severe oversimplification.

    It's about repeating SOME TYPES of content. And that's an important distinction, because "content" is a broad term. People don't mind grinding the same eight M+ dungeons, for example; but they would definitely have a problem if they had to grind the same ONE dungeon over and over.

    That's why quest content is different - things like the ZM stuff are always the exact same, without variance or substance. Making people repeat THAT is not the same as, say, dungeons.

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