Crisis in UK, Can Tories Save Liz Truss?

[DingDongKing]

I agree, but also a racist.

It was funnier when he was accusing me of racism, when I explained that Sunak isn't a diversity candidate at all. He's a hardcore Conservative.

The colour of his skin won't change that, no matter how the Conservative elite try and pretend they're progressive for picking him.

[Iliena]

But Brexit already happened, why would they have to be the most committed to it?

Because they're morally bankrupt.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It was funnier when he was accusing me of racism, when I explained that Sunak isn't a diversity candidate at all. He's a hardcore Conservative.

The colour of his skin won't change that, no matter how the Conservative elite try and pretend they're progressive for picking him.

Pann doesn't appear to realise that suggesting that someone can't be racist because of their skin colour is, in fact, racist.

And the policies of this increasingly far right Tory party are, without question, racist. See their latest jape involving Rwanda for proof. The irony of them coming up with that when Windrush is still being sorted out appears to be lost on them. No doubt they are fine with a later government (and tax payers) being hit with the financial implications of their methods.

I would respond to Pann myself, but I'm increasingly thinking that he's blocked me. Or he's deliberately ignoring what I post. I guess I've slapped him around this forum too often, and he's retreated to his safe space.

[Veggie50]

It was funnier when he was accusing me of racism, when I explained that Sunak isn't a diversity candidate at all. He's a hardcore Conservative.

The colour of his skin won't change that, no matter how the Conservative elite try and pretend they're progressive for picking him.

To be fair, I read your argument on this and do disagree with you.

The term “diversity hire” is just a degrading term to indicate you hired outside the “white straight male” convention. It’s mostly used to devalue someone of different race/sexuality/gender his/hers accomplishment of being hired.

In short, “diversity hire” is just a way of saying “hired despite there being more qualified candidates”.

A bullshit term in and of itself.

[Pann]

I was on team Rishi once, don't see now how he and the baggage he carries can win it. Dreadful chancellor imposing the highest level of taxation in living memory almost, ought to be in the Labour party really.

I think I would prefer Ben Wallace but does he know enough outside of defence, not sure.

In the end I would, as the Tory party must for any semblance of future unity, be guided by whoever the ERG back. Steve Baker pulling out of the contest and supporting Suella Braverman is interesting. Think you have to reserve judgment on who will win for a couple of weeks until we have only two candidates left. It is like every man and his dog is throwing their hat in the ring right now.

Impossible to say. But with 80% of the Tory party being pro-Brexit it will be the most committed Brexiteer that wins. (I hope)

I agree that there are questions to be asked over Sunak's time as chancellor. I also think that there are issues over his Green Card status and, although it turned out she had done nothing wrong and ended up paying more tax (that must have been a fun conversation in the Sunak household ), his wife's tax affairs will feed the feeling of one rule them, one rule us.

However will all that said I still think he is frontrunner. It has been no secret that he has been after the top job ever since Dominic Cummings appointed him chancellor and it shows in how slick his campaign has started. I also think that he has a great deal of support amongst voters for the furlough scheme.

If he doesn't win it this time he is certainly a future Con leader.

Has Wallace put his name forward yet? I think he has done a good job with Ukraine but other than that I don't know much about him.

Braverman came as a bit of surprise to me. I initially thought she would go nowhere but a heavy weight like Baker putting his support behind her is a massive boost, I still think her bid will be unsuccessful but she is possibly one for the future.

Personally I'm hoping that Javid puts his name forward. I thought he was a decent, if untested, chancellor and he seems to have done well with health but the thing I really like him for was his refusal to do Cumming's bidding and that he put principle before self advancement - a rare quality in today's politics.

It should be an interesting next few weeks.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I agree that there are questions to be asked over Sunak's time as chancellor. I also think that there are issues over his Green Card status and, although it turned out she had done nothing wrong and ended up paying more tax (that must have been a fun conversation in the Sunak household ), his wife's tax affairs will feed the feeling of one rule them, one rule us.

However will all that said I still think he is frontrunner. It has been no secret that he has been after the top job ever since Dominic Cummings appointed him chancellor and it shows in how slick his campaign has started. I also think that he has a great deal of support amongst voters for the furlough scheme.

If he doesn't win it this time he is certainly a future Con leader.

Has Wallace put his name forward yet? I think he has done a good job with Ukraine but other than that I don't know much about him.

Braverman came as a bit of surprise to me. I initially thought she would go nowhere but a heavy weight like Baker putting his support behind her is a massive boost, I still think her bid will be unsuccessful but she is possibly one for the future.

Personally I'm hoping that Javid puts his name forward. I thought he was a decent, if untested, chancellor and he seems to have done well with health but the thing I really like him for was his refusal to do Cumming's bidding and that he put principle before self advancement - a rare quality in today's politics.

It should be an interesting next few weeks.

Well would you look at that. Having thrown baseless accusations at Labour, that he refused to back up when challenged, we now have glowing descriptions of several of the leading Tory candidates for the new leader.

Our "enlightened centrist" Pann, ladies and gentlemen. Totally not right wing at all, oh no. And he'll argue with you for 10 pages if you try and say he is.

[Armael]

You can't possibly be Pro-Tory after the shitshow of the past 6 years(at minimum). @Pann

[Pann]

You can't possibly be Pro-Tory after the shitshow of the past 6 years(at minimum). @Pann

I am not pro-Tory. I like certain people within the Tory party, I also like people within the Lab but I am not pro-Lab either. I am giving my opinion on the candidates running for the Tory leadership and seeing as one of them will be the PM I think it is worthy of discussion. You're free to offer a counter opinion, you might even change my mind.

As I said yesterday I am optimistic for British politics - I realise that this is probably misplaced and I will end up disappointed but I prefer to positive whilst I can - as the Tories will improve without Johnson and Lab will also improve as they can no longer win by not being led by Boris Johnson.

But are dissenting political opinions not allowed or something?!?

Maybe try to listening to those who have different opinions instead shouting them down? You never know you might not end up agreeing with them but you might gain an understanding of their motivations.

[dribbles]

I agree that there are questions to be asked over Sunak's time as chancellor. I also think that there are issues over his Green Card status and, although it turned out she had done nothing wrong and ended up paying more tax (that must have been a fun conversation in the Sunak household ), his wife's tax affairs will feed the feeling of one rule them, one rule us.

However will all that said I still think he is frontrunner. It has been no secret that he has been after the top job ever since Dominic Cummings appointed him chancellor and it shows in how slick his campaign has started. I also think that he has a great deal of support amongst voters for the furlough scheme.

If he doesn't win it this time he is certainly a future Con leader.

Has Wallace put his name forward yet? I think he has done a good job with Ukraine but other than that I don't know much about him.

Braverman came as a bit of surprise to me. I initially thought she would go nowhere but a heavy weight like Baker putting his support behind her is a massive boost, I still think her bid will be unsuccessful but she is possibly one for the future.

Personally I'm hoping that Javid puts his name forward. I thought he was a decent, if untested, chancellor and he seems to have done well with health but the thing I really like him for was his refusal to do Cumming's bidding and that he put principle before self advancement - a rare quality in today's politics.

It should be an interesting next few weeks.

Did you see Javid's resignation speech in the commons? I think he lost the leadership contest with that.

Rishi is coming under sustained attack from Boris's wing of the party and the ERG lot. And Boris still matters, many of the 14 million who gave him his mandate at the last election voted for Boris personally, not because he was leader of the Tory party or for their local MP. Those millions of Boris supporting voters have not all gone away.

Some, maybe me included, are waiting to see which candidate Boris endorses as future PM as he surely will.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I am not pro-Tory. I like certain people within the Tory party, I also like people within the Lab but I am not pro-Lab either. I am giving my opinion on the candidates running for the Tory leadership and seeing as one of them will be the PM I think it is worthy of discussion. You're free to offer a counter opinion, you might even change my mind.

As I said yesterday I am optimistic for British politics - I realise that this is probably misplaced and I will end up disappointed but I prefer to positive whilst I can - as the Tories will improve without Johnson and Lab will also improve as they can no longer win by not being led by Boris Johnson.

But are dissenting political opinions not allowed or something?!?

Maybe try to listening to those who have different opinions instead shouting them down? You never know you might not end up agreeing with them but you might gain an understanding of their motivations.

These "leading candidates" you are talking about have all been part of the Tory government that have been wrecking this country the last few years. They've been involved in the pathetic response to Covid, that resulted in one of the highest death rates in Europe, and which wasted 10s of billions of pounds of tax-payers money, much of which went into the pockets of friends, families and sponsors of the Tory Party.

They've been involved while Boris has lied so often that it's become impossible to keep track of them all. They held their noses and carried on supporting him while he made a mockery of the institutions of government that the democracy of this country relies on. Only once it was obvious that he was toast did they suddenly all come out and start talking about "integrity".

And they've been involved in the farce of Brexit, a process that has caused more damage to this country than Covid did. They've backed Boris as he's threatened to break international law over NI, as he's removed water purity laws so that companies can dump raw sewage. They've ignored the economic damage, and the trade damage. They've ignored the loss of personnel that's impacting the NHS and businesses beyond. They've ignored the damage to fishing, to farming.

They voted to try and keep corrupt MPs in their jobs. They've voted to try and keep sex pest MPs in their jobs. There is no place they won't go in order to maintain their own power, and line their own pockets.

And yet here you are, "enlightened centrist" that you are, giving them a free pass on all the shit that's happened over the last few years, and treating them as if they were nothing to do with it. I have news for you; they were, they were neck deep in the swill, and working as hard as they could to make political or financial capital out of it. You want to provide an overview of the candidates, do it honestly.

Might need someone else to shove this in Pann's face. Because clearly he can't take debate with me.

[DarkAmbient]

Well would you look at that. Having thrown baseless accusations at Labour, that he refused to back up when challenged, we now have glowing descriptions of several of the leading Tory candidates for the new leader.

Our "enlightened centrist" Pann, ladies and gentlemen. Totally not right wing at all, oh no. And he'll argue with you for 10 pages if you try and say he is.

Who gives a fuck if he's right wing or not? You're being the personification of the 'someone is wrong on the internet' cartoon. Seems to happen a lot here, someone posts opinions that aren't sufficiently glowing or condemnatory of figures and ideas from the left/right divide and then others engage in a tedious drawn out circle jerk trying to 'out' them and mocking them essentially for being too unbiased.

[DingDongKing]

To be fair, I read your argument on this and do disagree with you.

The term “diversity hire” is just a degrading term to indicate you hired outside the “white straight male” convention. It’s mostly used to devalue someone of different race/sexuality/gender his/hers accomplishment of being hired.

In short, “diversity hire” is just a way of saying “hired despite there being more qualified candidates”.

A bullshit term in and of itself.

The term diversity hire is used not to indicate qualification but to indicate the hypocrisy of the hiring group. Where they think that placating a quota will deflect from shortcomings in the hiring process, and potentially hoodwink people from identifying systemic issues in the organisation. All of which is true here. Also, there is NO Tory properly qualified to lead this country, really. They’re shithouses. So yeah, they’re playing the diversity card to win over people who’ll see the forest for the trees. It’s incredible cynical and corrupt on their part. But hey Tories! It’s their MO. Mind you, from a Tory perspective, Sunak is a brilliant Thatcherite pick. He will make the rich richer and the poor even poorer. And will blame people for it.

[Pann]

Did you see Javid's resignation speech in the commons? I think he lost the leadership contest with that.

Rishi is coming under sustained attack from Boris's wing of the party and the ERG lot. And Boris still matters, many of the 14 million who gave him his mandate at the last election voted for Boris personally, not because he was leader of the Tory party or for their local MP. Those millions of Boris supporting voters have not all gone away.

Some, maybe me included, are waiting to see which candidate Boris endorses as future PM as he surely will.

I did but I disagree I thought his speech came across as heartfelt and that he really felt that he had no choice but I accept that it remains to be seen whether the party share this opinion.

I don't expect to see a major policy shift whoever takes over which may well be enough but it will be interesting to see how much the Boris cult of personality survives.

I don't think Boris will endorse anyone and I would not be at all surprised if he left politics altogether by the end of the year.

Just announced that Wallace is not running. (I don't blame him to be honest) I think it is now Rishi's to lose.

[DarkAmbient]

The term diversity hire is used not to indicate qualification but to indicate the hypocrisy of the hiring group. Where they think that placating a quota will deflect from shortcomings in the hiring process, and potentially hoodwink people from identifying systemic issues in the organisation. All of which is true here. Also, there is NO Tory properly qualified to lead this country, really. They’re shithouses. So yeah, they’re playing the diversity card to win over people who’ll see the forest for the trees. It’s incredible cynical and corrupt on their part. But hey Tories! It’s their MO. Mind you, from a Tory perspective, Sunak is a brilliant Thatcherite pick. He will make the rich richer and the poor even poorer. And will blame people for it.

The Tories aren't playing the diversity card. Sunak and Braverman decided to run entirely of their own accord. You make it sound like they have no agency and were shoved into the race by some shadowy overseer.

Ben Wallace has ruled himself out. Quite surprised about that, he was the clear favourite. The other candidates will breathe a sigh of relief at least. Perhaps I underestimated him.

[dribbles]

I did but I disagree I thought his speech came across as heartfelt and that he really felt that he had no choice but I accept that it remains to be seen whether the party share this opinion.

I don't expect to see a major policy shift whoever takes over which may well be enough but it will be interesting to see how much the Boris cult of personality survives.

I don't think Boris will endorse anyone and I would not be at all surprised if he left politics altogether by the end of the year.

Just announced that Wallace is not running. (I don't blame him to be honest) I think it is now Rishi's to lose.

Very surprised Ben Wallace isn't running. Shame, hadn't seen that coming.

So here's my current very fluid list of candidates in order of preference, not likelihood of winning. Unsurprisingly their attitude to the EU features strongly in this, and with Keir Starmer making his position clear on that and giving me a plan B, at some point down this list is where I may switch to voting for Labour.

1. Suella Braverman.
2. Penny Mordaunt.
3. Priti Patel
4. Nadhim Zahawi
5. Rishi Sunak

To here the Tories get my vote at the next General Election, despite my useless pretty safe seat local Conservative MP.

6. Liz Truss. < Can't be trusted and a bit flaky on Europe, has to be a maybe.
7. Sajid Javid. Ditto above

From here more likely Keir Starmer would get my vote, and millions like me at the next GE if any of these were to win.

8. Tom Tugendhat.
9. Jeremy Hunt.

99% certain the next UK PM is sitting amongst those lot, if I haven't forgotten anyone. So much talent in the Conservative party to choose from isn't there? Do you have a favourite or a preference list to share?

[Pann]

Very surprised Ben Wallace isn't running. Shame, hadn't seen that coming.

So here's my current very fluid list of candidates in order of preference, not likelihood of winning. Unsurprisingly their attitude to the EU features strongly in this, and with Keir Starmer making his position clear on that and giving me a plan B, at some point down this list is where I may switch to voting for Labour.

1. Suella Braverman.
2. Penny Mordaunt.
3. Priti Patel
4. Nadhim Zahawi
5. Rishi Sunak

To here the Tories get my vote at the next General Election, despite my useless pretty safe seat local Conservative MP.

6. Liz Truss. < Can't be trusted and a bit flaky on Europe, has to be a maybe.
7. Sajid Javid. Ditto above

From here more likely Keir Starmer would get my vote, and millions like me at the next GE if any of these were to win.

8. Tom Tugendhat.
9. Jeremy Hunt.

99% certain the next UK PM is sitting amongst those lot, if I haven't forgotten anyone. So much talent in the Conservative party to choose from isn't there? Do you have a favourite or a preference list to share?

I thought there was a chance he would not run when he said that he was considering it with his family.

Interesting list - thanks. You'll not be at all surprised to learn that would not be my preference.

Out of those I'd want Javid to win and it would then be a toss up between Sunak, Mordaunt, Tugendhat if he didn't win/run.



Oooh, you'll not like this about Sunak!

'BTW, I heard direct from a senior Govt minister this week that Sunak has been deliberately frustrating attempts to get tough with Brussels over the Northern Ireland protocol. That rather outweighs the one Vote Leave dinner he showed up to during the referendum in my book.'

https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/sta...77802527248385

He's gone up a little in my estimation.

[DingDongKing]

The Tories aren't playing the diversity card. Sunak and Braverman decided to run entirely of their own accord. You make it sound like they have no agency and were shoved into the race by some shadowy overseer.

Ben Wallace has ruled himself out. Quite surprised about that, he was the clear favourite. The other candidates will breathe a sigh of relief at least. Perhaps I underestimated him.

If you think Tory donors and Tory campaigners won't use their 'diversity', you're very naive. Or you're just a Tory. Which is fine btw.

But don't bullshit.

[dribbles]

I thought there was a chance he would not run when he said that he was considering it with his family.

Interesting list - thanks. You'll not be at all surprised to learn that would not be my preference.

Out of those I'd want Javid to win and it would then be a toss up between Sunak, Mordaunt, Tugendhat if he didn't win/run.



Oooh, you'll not like this about Sunak!

'BTW, I heard direct from a senior Govt minister this week that Sunak has been deliberately frustrating attempts to get tough with Brussels over the Northern Ireland protocol. That rather outweighs the one Vote Leave dinner he showed up to during the referendum in my book.'

https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/sta...77802527248385

He's gone up a little in my estimation.

Oooh I wonder which minister leaked that, the knives are surely out for Rishi and he drops a little lower down to a maybe now on my list. Will the Tory party take note of my wishes/list? Or will they lose my vote and many others to Labour. We will see.

[Pann]

Oooh I wonder which minister leaked that, the knives are surely out for Rishi and he drops a little lower down to a maybe now on my list. Will the Tory party take note of my wishes/list? Or will they lose my vote and many others to Labour. We will see.

In my opinion I think that the majority of people want the issue solved and I think there's a good argument to be made that there needs to be a more pragmatic and less confrontational approach to NI (but that doesn't mean rolling over) so I don't think that this is a bad thing but then again our opinions on the issue are polar opposites.

But I have to say the back stabbing, leaks and briefings are all part of the fun of Tory leadership races!

Anyway on a serious note it will be interesting to see who Wallace endorses.

[DarkAmbient]

If you think Tory donors and Tory campaigners won't use their 'diversity', you're very naive. Or you're just a Tory. Which is fine btw.

But don't bullshit.

So you've moved from 'Sunak's candidacy is the Tories playing the diversity card' to 'maybe donors and campaigners will talk about diversity', which would be exactly what Labour and other parties already do. And I've never voted Tory in my life.

Bad news for Sunak's campaign: https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/statu...30148170874882

For those who can't/won't view the video, it's from a 2001 BBC documentary about the rise of the middle classes. A young Sunak is talking about his friends and says "I have friends who are aristocrats. I have friends who are upper class. I have friends who are, you know, working class. Well, not working class." He says the last bit with a touch of contempt. Not sure if we should condemn a guy for a flippant comment made in his youth 21 years ago though.