New hunter tree bois!!!

[ABK Morgan]

NGL going to miss Wild Spirits as BM.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Can't believe anyone would miss ground circle abilities tbh! They are so toxic, especially in pugs!

[Alecazam]

Currently the only thing MM has going for it mechanically is that Aimed Shot is strong, nothing like what Arms has with buffing Mortal Strike, which is more what I imagine a better version of MM would be like.

We briefly had something like that back in Uldir, where a selection of Azerite abilities and talents ended up with a playstyle revolving around buffing Aimed Shot to high heaven, then unleashing it at the best moment.

All the best specs have a core mechanic around which everything revolves. Fire mages with hot streak, Unholy with summoning ghouls, Fury Warrior with Rampage/Enrage, etc.
MM doesnt have that, and because of that it suffers when it comes to talents and such, simply because there isn't a core to the spec to augment. Just go into Torghast and you will see that there isn't a complementary build that makes the spec exponentially better, just flat damage increases.

High IQ take. Uldir was the high point for this version of MM fun-wise, though it was braindead easy and often had you ignoring precise shot procs. Ignoring precise shot procs is a design flaw that still exists today. During trueshot you either have to overwrite procs or overcap aimed shot charges depending on what does more damage at the time.

[Sondrelk]

High IQ take. Uldir was the high point for this version of MM fun-wise, though it was braindead easy and often had you ignoring precise shot procs. Ignoring precise shot procs is a design flaw that still exists today. During trueshot you either have to overwrite procs or overcap aimed shot charges depending on what does more damage at the time.

The main problem since Legion has been the lack of a coherent main theme around MM. As I mentioned, Aimed Shot is only the core in the sense that it's the ability that does the most damage, but unlike Pyroblast or Chaos Bolt there isnt actually a mechanic that is built around it, you just have the main ability and then a bunch of other abilities strewn haphazardly around, which tends to lead us to the gameplay we always end up seeing with MM, where the ideal state is one where you ignore all abilities in favor of Aimed Shot.
In Uldir this was still true, but at least gave us an actual mechanic. Later in BfA you similarly built towards ignoring other abilities, and even now in SL you only use Precise Shot procs when you have nothing else to do, which is absurd when you consider that it is legitimately the only semblance of a rotational mechanic the spec has outside AoE.

I have taken flack for this before, but I do genuinely think that one of the main problems is that Blizzard genuinely has no idea what they want Aimed Shot to be. Mechanically it feels like Pyroblast or other long cast time nuke abilities, but rotationally it's more akin to a filler ability like Frostbolt.
Ideally Blizzard would actually make AiS a core mechanic in the sense that the spec is built around it, rather than a core in the sense that it's your most commonly used ability.

This new talent tree doesnt seem to actually fix any of this, but it does at least make it easier to abandon all pretense and just make MM an Aimed Shot spamming machine and nothing else, which is a blatant regression to Vanilla era specs, but is at least more streamlined instead of the unholy mess that is current MM.


That being said, I imagine things will change as we get to see the actual spec in practice. Not just with the baseline spec and passives, but also with likely changes to the talent tree as feedback rolls in.

[Makaloff]

They are not ignoring your feedback. Not caving to whining and crying does not = ignoring feedback. They simply disagree with it. You are not the sole arbiter of how the spec should be played.

i never said i was, but the representation and even high end raiders have talked about the issues of survival being meele, the fact that the specc saw no play until S3 of SL where blizzard buffed them to the moon with broken 4p and leggy pretty much shows how unpopular the specc is. critizing it going from ranged to meele isnt whining nor crying, its pointing out a massive flaw that have made the specc suffer since legion rework. Atleast they could made a talent so you have option between ranged or meele, it would solve quite alot of issues and keep both sides happy.

- - - Updated - - -

That is what I am thinking. If you think MSV is lame, a failure and shouldn't exist, clearly blizz does not think the same at least for the upcoming expansion, at least from post legion and going forward. That is not to say blizz is more "right" or the players who want MSV to go away are more "right", rather blizzard's view of SV still involves melee. There is a difference between ignore and disagree, to disagree does not necessarily mean you ignore as well.

I am sure blizzard is aware that people still want to play RSV however they disagree that melee SV should go away.

that is fair but then they could atleast made a talent to let you choose, beacuse even if i dislike MSV i dont want them to remove it, i want the option to play it as ranged and thats where i comes across as blizzard is ignoring feedback beacuse they could make both sides happy but instead go with the "we know better" attitude.

- - - Updated - - -

Survival as a melee is only reason to play a hunter. I love it and have a blast playing it, only reason I even touched retail in the last 2 years was to play Survival.

good for you, i wish i could say the same

[Zeth Hawkins]

Just noticed the Beast Cleave nerf. Currently does 100% damage as aoe, now will only do 75% and require three-point investment. Atrocious

[threads]

pretty underwhelming like most of the trees. same BFA-era garbage specs. i'll probably continue to stick with classic whenever i feel like playing hunter.

[KrayZ33]

Just noticed the Beast Cleave nerf. Currently does 100% damage as aoe, now will only do 75% and require three-point investment. Atrocious

You can make Kill Command cleave though, and that's pretty big considering you can buff the damage of it by like 50% (and even if you couldn't)

I also wonder, does Nessingway trap-thingy increase focus generation for the pet?

[[Apok]]

You can make Kill Command cleave though, and that's pretty big considering you can buff the damage of it by like 50% (and even if you couldn't)

I also wonder, does Nessingway trap-thingy increase focus generation for the pet?

Kill cleave seems interesting especially if you take talent where kc is all pets

[Kiria]

I quite like the ST MM route, at least the class will feel better than BFA and SL's itiration of MM hunter.

[Shaqthefat]

Can't believe anyone would miss ground circle abilities tbh! They are so toxic, especially in pugs!

How are they toxic?

[Gasparde]

Ugh, that MM tree... just rework that joke of a spec already.

The entire tree is wasted on "increase damage of spell X / stat Y by Z%". Which isn't surprising because the spec is a joke with its like 3 buttons and 2 interactions - which you actually have to ignore frequently enough because they're that useless.

That spec never recovered from losing vulnerability & Marked Shot after Legion. It's an absolute joke that this entire spec is.... spamming Aimed shot and Rapid Fire on CD while filling with Arcane Shot / Steady Shot and that's about it. But don't forget the random 0 synergy spells like Explosive Shot, Kill Shot or Wailing Arrow... that do absolutely nothing, don't interact with anything and are pretty much not amplyfied by anything either.

This spec was in dire need for a rework - again - and this bland and uninspired talent tree is showing that. But hey, at least there's that one talent that sometimes makes your Aimed Shot fire some random extra arrows... which you can amplify further to make said random arrows deal more damage. Color me excited. But I'm sure getting Chimaera Shot from the general Hunter tree fixes all of that.

The path the hunter class as a whole has taken after WoD, but specially after Legion, is so incredibly sad. And thea just can't be arsed to do any-fucking-thing about it because that would take actual effort. Looking forward to another 2 years of MM being 70% Aimed Shot damage and 30% random filler, BM being just about the same it's always been while comfortably sitting at the lower end of the dps rankings and SV probably falling back into whateverness again the second SL ends - all while at the same time becoming like twice as squishy as they are now again. But I'm sure we'll get a super swell first tier set bonus that's gonna change everything.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

How are they toxic?

I think toxic is probably the wrong word. What I mean is that they are very annoying because they rely upon the mobs not moving which is sometimes not possible and other times you just get trolled by the tank.

At a certain level of play it's not as much of an issue because everything is very coordinated, but in pugs it is really frustrating to have to deal with that stuff

[Mardux]

Not very much creative effort gone into the trees tbh.

Take what you have now and present it a different way so it seems you're giving something new.

Could be worse. They could have made the hunter trees like they did the spriest tree. That garbage is about as counter-intuitive as could be, even more so than current spriest "synergy".

[thunderdragon2]

ok i really need to ask this why are ALL of our abilities talents? no 1 will play bm without taking the likes of bestial wrath or aspect of the wild every one will take them wither its single target or aoe, its needless spent points, also why is animal companion locked behind beast cleave?

good preview but need some adjustments imo.

im struggling to figure out (with lack of a build to follow) where id personally put points 19 and 20 as bm

[Fullmetal89]

Give it a rest

No. Fuck them for removing a spec I played. Imagine if they removed Arms warriors and made them a ranged spec that can only use wands. You would never hear the end of it. I really hope they give a proper look to MM. They did the spec dirty in this last patch and it hasn't been fun to play in years. I don't know what the Hunter Class development team is smoking but they need an intervention. The class is a mess.

[munkeyinorbit]

Exactly. Blizzard has their vision for what they want Survival to be. They just disagree with those that think it should be ranged. That doesn't make Blizzard right. That doesn't make the players wrong.

Ignoring the feedback of 90% of hunters is just plain arrogance. Hunters don't like it. Blizzard will not backtrack as they are too stubborn.

[Bepples]

They are not ignoring your feedback. Not caving to whining and crying does not = ignoring feedback. They simply disagree with it. You are not the sole arbiter of how the spec should be played.

That is what I am thinking. If you think MSV is lame, a failure and shouldn't exist, clearly blizz does not think the same at least for the upcoming expansion, at least from post legion and going forward. That is not to say blizz is more "right" or the players who want MSV to go away are more "right", rather blizzard's view of SV still involves melee. There is a difference between ignore and disagree, to disagree does not necessarily mean you ignore as well.

I am sure blizzard is aware that people still want to play RSV however they disagree that melee SV should go away.

Whenever the whole "Blizzard just respectfully disagrees" line gets trotted out it's always a giant red flag that Blizzard is making a hilariously bad decision. This was the talking point for covenants on SL launch. When Blizzard disagrees with players and doubles down on a decision 99% of the time (probably 100% tbh) they are wrong and the decision is bad. Melee Survival included.

- - - Updated - - -

Survival as a melee is only reason to play a hunter. I love it and have a blast playing it, only reason I even touched retail in the last 2 years was to play Survival.

Why are you so obsessed with what ultimately amounts to a handicap Hunter? It's like demanding a Rogue spec without Stealth.

[Pauper]

First off Makaloff ty, that is a much more reasonable take than "SV melee sucks, is broken, has always sucked please remove etc..". Again we have had melee SV for multiple expansions now so I think we can reasonable conclude that at least by Blizzard's standards melee SV is not broken, is working at least on some level. So unless Blizz is being spiteful or unreasonably stubborn i.e... "Suck it ranged SV players", I have to think that blizzard is happy with MSV or it would have been removed.

As for why there is no ranged option I don't know, I think it comes down to 2 lines of thought:

1) It could be simply "If you want a ranged hunter spec, you have 2 options already". Not that most eloquent of reasoning and it is pretty dam blunt but that could be it. It could simply be "there are 2 ranged options for Hunter already, pick one".

2) Balancing issues - assuming we are keeping both melee and RSV at the same time. Maybe blizzard does not believe that they could reasonably balance 2 playstyles within one talent tree. Similar to how in WOTLK when all dk specs could tank and dps. Maybe blizzard sees it as too difficult to have both a ranged and melee SV at the same time.

To further elaborate-

I don't know if it as simple as lets say for SV your base talent choice is either raptor strike (as currently now) or lets say you have another choice "raptor shot" or "wild shot" or whatever type of ranged ability and then simply have raptor shot get the same benefits as all the talents that increase raptor strike/mongoose bite. Could that be it, just have a raptor shot and have all the talents that make raptor strike better also apply to raptor shot, or would blizzard have to completely rebuild from the ground up a ranged SV talent tree-and if so maybe blizz doesn't want to put in the effort to it.

I have also seen suggestions like make one part of the tree ranged, part of the tree melee and the final part poisons, or more focus on WFB etc... That sounds cool, maybe it could work. But idk, maybe blizz sees it as a balancing nightmare and that is why they are not doing it.

[MrLachyG]

so looking at the tree, all of our old baseline abilities like BW, Aspect of the Wild, Cobra Shot, Barbed Shot etc are all now talents? so will we get new baseline abilities? also I don't see Wild Spirits at all, are we losing that ability for good? I know it was covenant specific but I liked it!