Inclusivity Updates in Dragonflight - Body Type Names, New Pronouns and Voice Options

[deenman]

Well effectively that is, I expect the cursor hover tooltip also does away with genders, because it'd look rather silly to see "Blood elf Body 1 Paladin" for example?

I don't know why Blizzard did not just keep the genders/sexes and give additional body types for each instead of entirely saying that our characters cannot be made as a definite male/female anymore.

On top of that, I personally use science as the basis of how I perceive the world - if you have X/Y chromosomes, you are male. If X/X, you are female. Nothing can change that fact.

im not saying their solution is a good one,just trying to think of what their reasoning was

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Gender dysphoria is a mental illness yet we shape policy and society to cater to the illness. Name another illness that we do that for. Are we supposed to make policy for my schizophrenic neighbor who thinks the CIA is out to get him? Should I be compelled to play along with his delusions or would it be schizophobic of me to tell him that it's just his paranoia and everything will be ok?

yes,and transition is the scientificaly proven solution to fixing it

[Goatfish]

And even if it was at one point, science advances and grows. Homosexuality was once considered disordered by the APA and was listed as such in the DSM. Now we've realized that it isn't disordered, rather our reaction to it was the issue and that when gay people aren't persecuted and attacked they often end up perfectly happy and healthy. That's what's happening with transgenderism now, we're realizing that we were wrong seeing sex and gender as being synonymous, we're seeing that the outcomes for gender-affirming treatment are (while obviously not perfect) much better than telling the person they are sick and trying to force their mindset to change.

I always wondered about this argument of "something else got taken off the DSM so now we can just pick and choose what is or isn't an illness at will". I feel like you wouldn't make the same argument for Schizophrenia, BPD, or NPD. Can you justify why those should still be mental illnesses and not transgenderism without appealing to authority?

We should also see some value in categorizing mental categories that are very life affecting/inhibiting in which transgenderism most definitely is. It's like saying someone with OCD doesn't have a disorder just because they have modified their life in such a way to not be "disordered" while still having to be victim to its effects. This just feels like an area where not classifying it as a disorder was done to please the political culture and not at all because it isn't something that causes disorder in someone's life. It's kind of hard to claim it isn't a disorder but it causes upheaval and distress in your life at the same time.

yes,and transition is the scientificaly proven solution to fixing it

This is absolutely not true. I suggest you read more of the literature directly, results are mixed at best, are often from highly biased studies, and the surgeries especially have incredibly high serious complication rates. Hormone use has very limited data, especially cross-sex, and what we do have for long term use shows some complications as well. Social transition and using external aids (packers, fake breasts, crossdressing) seems to have some reliable benefits and very low risk, but this often isn't what people are referring to when talking about transitioning.

This isn't to say it doesn't work, but to say we don't have nearly enough clear and unbiased research into this topic to make any assertions. It should definitely never be sold as this miracle treatment like it is in common media.

[Alixie]

wtf r u talking about? if you tell me your name is bob and i call you asshat,you would be ok with it?

You have the right to call him whatever the hell you want, and he has the right to never associate with you. Some people are meanie weenies, and you have to just deal with that like an adult.

Before you say, I have to work with him, then "asshat" is recognized as vulgar language and would not be permitted. She/he and personal names are not slurs.

[Saradain]

im not saying their solution is a good one,just trying to think of what their reasoning was

I do hope Blizzard and the players can reach common ground - having more options so you and your in-game character can fit each other in the way you prefer is NEVER BAD. Just this way Blizzard is doing it feels rather...not honest.

Blizzard after their little scandals have to make a 180 degree turn to save face, and this just feels like the same scam other companies do during Pride Month - changing the colours to rainbows in all areas except those where business-wise it doesn't do any good like Arab countries, for example. Just watch, this thing won't make it live in China is my guess. Might be wrong, but we'll see?

If Blizzard wants true exclusivity, just fukken add options of body type etc for both genders, not erase the words and terms entirely. Sure it doesn't affect my gameplay, genders have no racials or anything that would change the gameplay, just these kind of changes conflict with many real life viewpoints and all they do is cause division in people.

Is there really no common ground for this?

All kinds of people play WoW, including those who are entirely content with their scientific and biological gender/sex - why does that not mean a thing anymore?

[deenman]

You have the right to call him whatever the hell you want, and he has the right to never associate with you. Some people are meanie weenies, and you have to just deal with that like an adult.

Before you say, I have to work with him, then "asshat" is recognized as vulgar language and would not be permitted. She/he and personal names are not slurs.

fine ill call him tracy or whatever,the point is still the same,and yeah people have the right to offend others by not respecting them,my point is that they are just vile human beings for doing so,thats all

[Mojo03]

I genuinely don't get it. I'm open minded to gender identity largely being a social construct, but they go way too far when they try to act like biological sexes aren't a thing.

Biological female = wider hips for child birth, breasts, and vag

Biological male = nuts and berries, prominent facial hair

Why is it a problem to label sexes that way? I'm genuinely curious why anyone sees an issues with that.

[deenman]

I genuinely don't get it. I'm open minded to gender identity largely being a social construct, but they go way too far when they try to act like biological sexes aren't a thing.

Biological female = wider hips for child birth, breasts, and vag

Biological male = nuts and berries, prominent facial hair

Why is it a problem to label sexes that way? I'm genuinely curious why anyone sees an issues with that.

its typical blizzard,doing both sides wrong and making everyone mad

trans people dont deny their biology,thats why they are called trans before the gender

[Voidism]

wtf r u talking about? if you tell me your name is bob and i call you asshat,you would be ok with it?

I am talking about my freedom to not being forced to choose, and to keep my dysphoria at bay. You lot don't really care about all dysphoric people. You only care about political points, people who belong to your brand. "Screw trans people, women and other minorities as long as we get to circle jerk about our own perfection in our affluent west coast state while only really serving a political team pretending to stand for everyone"

It's up to you to do that ofc. Why should I fixate on what some person is doing somewhere? It doesn't make me feel better to doom and gloom. I play video games to escape reality.

You really are toxic in your rhetoric and how you treat people who are different than you.

[tromage2]

Just watch, this thing won't make it live in China is my guess. Might be wrong, but we'll see?

Hope we can play this version aswell in other countries.
In some aspacts we in the western world became to crazy, and if they want to introduce politics then i hope they give the people that are not in support of this the right and freedom to stay away from it.

[SinR]

Would people get this heated if they were labeled "Masculine" And "Feminine" ?






Probably

[Celement]

I do hope Blizzard and the players can reach common ground - having more options so you and your in-game character can fit each other in the way you prefer is NEVER BAD. Just this way Blizzard is doing it feels rather...not honest.

Blizzard after their little scandals have to make a 180 degree turn to save face, and this just feels like the same scam other companies do during Pride Month - changing the colours to rainbows in all areas except those where business-wise it doesn't do any good like Arab countries, for example. Just watch, this thing won't make it live in China is my guess. Might be wrong, but we'll see?

If Blizzard wants true exclusivity, just fukken add options of body type etc for both genders, not erase the words and terms entirely. Sure it doesn't affect my gameplay, genders have no racials or anything that would change the gameplay, just these kind of changes conflict with many real life viewpoints and all they do is cause division in people.

Is there really no common ground for this?

All kinds of people play WoW, including those who are entirely content with their scientific and biological gender/sex - why does that not mean a thing anymore?

Are you asking why a soulless corporation is clinically following fades while not exporting it to countries that dont tolerate it?

[exochaft]

I was just copy pasting all the letters people identify as, from the previous poster. Even if we want to focus on Gender dysphoria, it's not a mental illness. According to the mayo clinic, the cure is "gender-affirming treatment".

The American Psychiatry Association:

"Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical"

https://psychiatry.org/patients-fami...nder-dysphoria


It's actually the non-scientific community that believes this to be a mental illness.

The problem is that even the 'scientific' organizations have become very political as of late... or more accurately have always been political to some degree. Believing any group or body being made of experts automatically makes them immune to or not affected by political/social leanings is living in denial. It's been this way since humans have been a thing, and it's still certainly true to this day.

The APA is no exception, as it's been changing their definition of gender dysphoria over the past couple of years to be more in line with the social/political messaging of the day (changed at least twice, may have been more, it's not something I follow often). What one has to keep in mind is that the APA is only considered an authority as long as people recognize it as such, and even among psychologists/psychiatrists/mental health workers there's quite a rift between those that will side with the ideology of the APA on these matters and those that don't. As with any organization like the APA, the people at the top and in control don't necessarily align with those on the ground level, as well as being highly susceptible to typical corrupt behavior that any position of power allows. This is the real root of the fallacy to appeal to an expert as an argument, as they are only as human as you and me, and they're just as prone to corruption as any other non-expert; basically a level of knowledge does not negate a human being human.

Ultimately, this entire matter comes down to whether one should be forced to affirm someone's lie or condition as positive or normal. No one should be forced to accept a reality that isn't true, that's what tyrants and authoritarians demand... and this doesn't end well for anyone involve, regardless of your stance. You can accept and respect an individual and treat them like a person, but in no way should anyone be obligated to indulge or praise/condone/normalize their delusions or health issues. You can treat and respect a pathological liar as a person, but it'd be silly to indulge in or affirm or condone or normalize their lies and resultant behavior.

What happens when you indulge in people's fantasies and remove yourself from any objective truth? Well, history's a good teacher in this regard, and it leads to societal upheaval and/or collapse, or worse. If there is no objective truth for a society to latch onto and everything is subjective for everyone, it's going to fall apart from any lack of standard or cohesion or just eat itself alive from all the infighting. This is how you can get to an intellectual dark age, where science and knowledge gets lost or just flat out ignored. The only way to avoid such a thing is for society as a whole to call out the nonsense and not embrace/condone it. Well... technically there's other ways, but that goes towards a more Darwinian/utilitarian direction where people will either just die out or get 'weeded out for the betterment of society', and that's not a good ending.

Going back to the thread's source at hand: what Blizz is doing is condoning potentially destructive behavior. While you could play the fantasy angle... let's be serious, it's fairly obvious that's not the reason for all these changes. You could ask Blizz directly and they'd tell you it's all about diversity/inclusivity/etc. while trying to play the fantasy angle that's just there to cover their butts. What Blizz could've done is made the Dracthyr a gender-neutral race since they're basically genetically engineered, weaving into the lore that because of the alterations these dracthyr are genderless. I'd be happy with something like that actually, that would mean Blizz is putting some effort this new race. But no, they have to go the yard too far and change everything for an extreme minority and political/social agendas. People come to games to get away from the real life social/political hell, not to immerse themselves in it more.

You know what would be the better option? Just expand the customization options even more while not playing social/political games with their design choices and messaging. Imagine you could have the option to make your character more masculine or effeminate no matter if your character is male/female, or have the option to toggle different voices in-game if you want. If anything, the Blizz solution is to pigeon-hole themselves into a social/political quagmire that doesn't need to happen... story of Blizz when it comes to WoW in a nutshell. While the leadership may have changed in the past year, they're still a bad regime with a slightly different flavor.

[Xilurm]

Would people get this heated if they were labeled "Masculine" And "Feminine" ?






Probably

It would be a much better choice to do that.

[ArtistOfWar]

I genuinely don't get it. I'm open minded to gender identity largely being a social construct, but they go way too far when they try to act like biological sexes aren't a thing.

Biological female = wider hips for child birth, breasts, and vag

Biological male = nuts and berries, prominent facial hair

Why is it a problem to label sexes that way? I'm genuinely curious why anyone sees an issues with that.

This was my point exactly. People keep saying that they're trying to split sex from gender, and that's absolutely not what they're doing. More and more people are pretending sex doesn't exist in lieu of gender politics. If we were able to accept sex separate from gender, there shouldn't even be a problem with, for example calling someone a he/she regarding their sex. We could come up with any word in the world to make a clear distinction to a male/female gender, and no one would need to get upset about pronouns either because what was always true would still be true, he refers to a male (sex) and she referring to a female (sex). If you want additional pronouns on top of that, fine, but stop pretending that we aren't trying to completely replace sex with a much more lax "gender."

[SinR]

I can see Blizzard changing this based off feedback.

They'll probably never go back to Male and Female labels, instead choosing Masc or Fem instead of generic sounding "Body 1" And "Body 2"

[deenman]

I am talking about my freedom to not being forced to choose, and to keep my dysphoria at bay. You lot don't really care about all dysphoric people. You only care about political points, people who belong to your brand. "Screw trans people, women and other minorities as long as we get to circle jerk about our own perfection in our affluent west coast state while only really serving a political team pretending to stand for everyone"

It's up to you to do that ofc. Why should I fixate on what some person is doing somewhere? It doesn't make me feel better to doom and gloom. I play video games to escape reality.

You really are toxic in your rhetoric and how you treat people who are different than you.

Im pretty sure your puting on an act here,but if you dont want to chose that makes you non binary,you still have to CHOSE a way for people to adress you however,im pretty sure thats the law

[Xilurm]

I genuinely don't get it. I'm open minded to gender identity largely being a social construct, but they go way too far when they try to act like biological sexes aren't a thing.

Biological female = wider hips for child birth, breasts, and vag

Biological male = nuts and berries, prominent facial hair

Why is it a problem to label sexes that way? I'm genuinely curious why anyone sees an issues with that.

its typical blizzard,doing both sides wrong and making everyone mad

trans people dont deny their biology,thats why they are called trans before the gender

Hopefully the actual LGBT folk in their company can tell em it's a better idea.

Same way Pelagos (who went from female to male) was using "they" in text but later was changed to "him" due to feedback.

[Saradain]

Are you asking why a soulless corporation is clinically following fades while not exporting it to countries that dont tolerate it?

I am indeed asking that. Because it should be a clear sign companies are NOT doing this for truly caring about people, they are optimizing changes for PROFIT. As they of course should/would. They simply made calculations with help of professionals to gauge that while this change would cause outrage, it will retain enough customers to be profitable. Addiction and people simply sticking to a game they love/loved for 17 years...

[Pengalor]

I always wondered about this argument of "something else got taken off the DSM so now we can just pick and choose what is or isn't an illness at will". I feel like you wouldn't make the same argument for Schizophrenia, BPD, or NPD. Can you justify why those should still be mental illnesses and not transgenderism without appealing to authority?

Who is 'we'? Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist? I'm certainly not making any of those decisions, but I am intelligent enough to look at the reasonings for those changes and the studies behind them and see why those changes had value. You can call it 'appeal to authority' all you want, but we all do that everyday of our lives. There are levels that are acceptable, because one person can't know everything.

[Voidism]

This was my point exactly. People keep saying that they're trying to split sex from gender, and that's absolutely not what they're doing. More and more people are pretending sex doesn't exist in lieu of gender politics. If we were able to accept sex separate from gender, there shouldn't even be a problem with, for example calling someone a he/she regarding their sex. We could come up with any word in the world to make a clear distinction to a male/female gender, and no one would need to get upset about pronouns either because what was always true would still be true, he refers to a male (sex) and she referring to a female (sex). If you want additional pronouns on top of that, fine, but stop pretending that we aren't trying to completely replace sex with a much more lax "gender."

You hit en nail on it's head!!!

They keep confusing people by alternating between sex and gender. Possibly intentionally.
So, they might say sex for example but then treat it as gender or vise versa.

My dysphoria don't go away pretending sex doesn't exist. I erase my transness if I deny I am biologically male.
I am not a woman, and never will be. I am a trans woman. That's ok!!!

My pronouns are I/me/myself. Why would that be relevant to someone else? Ofc I prefer being called she but I don't break apart if people don't follow that.

Fixating on hang ups will not remove them. It will only make me feel worse.