Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I know pedantry is kind of your specialty but I'm just gonna point out when someone says that X is popular among American voters (i.e. everyone including Democrats and independent voters) inserting the qualifier "Republicans" and then saying "well ackshually there isn't popular support" is an incredibly dishonest argument.
    The statement I was showing was false was
    notice how all of these things have wide popularity with American voters, regardless of one's political alignment I might add,
    So, if it lacks support among republicans it doesn't have wide popularity regardless of political alignment.

  2. #282
    anyway, I can already tell the pedantry squad is here to spin about how base popularity = political power, except when it comes to political issues they disagree with in which case that's thrown out like a baby in bath water.

    so, disengaging further.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    and I keep trying to impart why you think cops *need* military equipment to deal with a civilian population. a question you keep refusing to answer, for some bizarre reason.
    Because the underlying assumption is false.

    I haven't stated that the cops need that - only that it isn't due to funding of the police; but due to 1033 making surplus military equipment available free of charge (both small arm weapons and computers, chairs etc).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Strange restrictions when you claimed that it had support regardless of political alignment...

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    anyway, I can already tell the pedantry squad is here to spin about how base popularity = political power, except when it comes to political issues they disagree with in which case that's thrown out like a baby in bath water.

    so, disengaging further.
    Lmao no, considering my province almost do all the things you are talking about, beside abolish police, not popular.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    So, if it lacks support among republicans it doesn't have wide popularity regardless of political alignment.
    I said wide appeal regardless of your political alignment, that's not a false statement. an issue that has 60%+ support from voters means every type of voter agrees with that issue. that's what I said, how you can misconstrue that isn't a mistake, but a deliberate attempt to patty cake over minute details no one cares about.

    *long drawn out yawn*

  6. #286
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The statement I was showing was false was
    Very clearly intended to be a statement inclusive of all voters.

    And that aside, what is your point? Because the underlying point of said statement is that popularity does not necessarily translate to political outcomes, and unless you've something to offer in refutation of that you're just being fecklessly pedantic as usual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Very clearly intended to be a statement inclusive of all voters.

    And that aside, what is your point? Because the underlying point of said statement is that popularity does not necessarily translate to political outcomes, and unless you've something to offer in refutation of that you're just being fecklessly pedantic as usual.
    It doesent directly translate right away no. But its how it gets started. Its how universal healthcare started in canada. Provinces started doing it, eventually federal started giving funds for it. Even now canada is not a country wide universal healthcare, its just every provinces doing their own system.

    You want free healthcare in the usa, states where this is the most popular should be the ones you pressure into having their own system.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-07-19 at 09:20 PM.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    It doesent directly translate right away no. But
    So again, you don't have anything to offer in refutation of the point.

    :thumbsup:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #289
    boy, this line about provinces making public healthcare a thing might not look totally fucking silly on it's face if states in the US weren't more preoccupied with making sure they can execute women for having a miscarriage.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    boy, this line about provinces making public healthcare a thing might not look totally fucking silly on it's face if states in the US weren't more preoccupied with making sure they can execute women for having a miscarriage.
    Those will be your last states to do it, like we had provinces doing it last. We had late provinces to gay marriage too.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    I said wide appeal regardless of your political alignment, that's not a false statement. an issue that has 60%+ support from voters means every type of voter agrees with that issue.
    You need more than that to have a real wide appeal for an idea - and the 60%+ numbers was one poll among many - with unclear results. Strange that a partisan web-site picked just that one...

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You need more than that to have a real wide appeal for an idea
    The one in which you arbitrarily put a higher bar on what constitutes 'wide appeal' as though there's any objective definition. 'Kay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    Those will be your last states to do it, like we had provinces doing it last. We had late provinces to gay marriage too.
    cool, tell me more about how I or anyone should be thrilled to hear that in 30+ years we can act like this is the 21st century again. it sure must be nice not actually having to deal with what's going on in a country you don't live in.

    it certainly explains the stuck up attitudes on display.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-19 at 09:35 PM.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The one in which you arbitrarily put a higher bar on what constitutes 'wide appeal' as though there's any objective definition. 'Kay.
    You mean like having at least 50% support among the political parties when we talk about actually getting things done?

    When people discuss whether star wars have 'wide appeal' there isn't any similar objective definition.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    cool, tell me more about how I or anyone should be thrilled to hear that in 30+ years we can act like this is the 21st century again. it sure must be nice not actually having to deal with what's going on in a country you don't live in.

    it certainly explains the stuck up attitudes on display.
    Oh, I get it, gay rights werent a thing when I was a teenager, only changed because it had massive supports at the turn of the century. If it didnt have massive support, id still be in the closet like I was back then. Gotta still live somehow.

    Its not about being thrilled. Its about knowing what the actual target has to be. Some gay rights came before gay marriage. The first step is not gona defunding the police, let alone abolishing it. If all you want to so is talk about abolishing it, you arent into changing anything. You just want to feel good.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-07-19 at 09:42 PM.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You mean like having at least 50% support among the political parties when we talk about actually getting things done?

    When people discuss whether star wars have 'wide appeal' there isn't any similar objective definition.
    My brother in Christ, you're the one arguing that 'wide appeal' has an objective definition because you got called out for being a pedant. Rofl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    Oh, I get it, gay rights werent a thing when I was a teenager, only changed because it had massive supports at the turn of the century. If it didnt have massive support, id still be in the closet like I was back then. Gotta still live somehow.

    Its not about being thrilled. Its about knowing what the actual target has to be. Some gay rights came before gay marriage. The first step is not gona defunding the police, let alone abolishing it. If all you want to so is talk about abolishing it, you arent into changing anything. You just want to feel good.

    clearly the lack of gay rights wasn't that big of a problem for you, since you yourself seem to think going back into the closet is in any way acceptable. it really just strikes me as a person who is way too comfortable giving up their rights because they assume it won't adversely affect them.

    like I'm sorry but I don't think women being thrown in prison or murdered by the state for having a miscarriage is just something we all need to accept. you might! but that's just you pal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Red States: outwardly moving towards Christian-fascism
    minteK197: well you know our Canadian provinces took a while to allow gay marriage you know, so, maybe give it some time?

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    My brother in Christ, you're the one arguing that 'wide appeal' has an objective definition because you got called out for being a pedant. Rofl.
    I'm stating that in context "wide appeal regardless of political affiliation" suggest support of >50% among the major political parties (and for some time); whereas in reality many of the questions have considerably less than that support.

    I'm not stating that 'wide appeal' in general has an objective definition.

    And 'defund the police' has considerable less support, but people seem more concerned with trying to wish away polls.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    All this bullshit back and forth aside, the fact remains that you should take some money from the typical police budget and funnel it into services that will in turn reduce the need for police response.
    Shoulda, coulda, woulda, isn't a fact.
    It's a fact that budgets for police have increased.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Shoulda, coulda, woulda, isn't a fact.
    It's a fact that budgets for police have increased.
    And a fact does not mean very much by itself. As I've pointed out to the pedant in chief before, what matters is the story you're trying to tell and the agenda you're trying to promote with those facts.

    Repeating "defunding the police is politically unpopular at the present" is not an ethical stance regarding law enforcement or an argument on the merits of policing as it exists. It's essentially kiddie level 'neener neener' taunting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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