Why did they ruin the game for new subscribers?

[richardhuntr]

The problem is not shoving players into BFA, as bad as BFA was, most people get to 60 eventually. The problem is the insane amount of stuff they need to do at 60 to be able to join in with the rest of us.

[Alduin]

The problem is not shoving players into BFA, as bad as BFA was, most people get to 60 eventually. The problem is the insane amount of stuff they need to do at 60 to be able to join in with the rest of us.

And in addition the stuff they could / want to do at max level like
- farming Heirlooms (they cannot be easily bought anymore)
- farming Mounts (good luck on that)
- farming reputations (for said mounts)
- farming transmogs (item's are not dropping exclusively for your specc)
- farming battle pets
- leveling battle pets
- doing old world power systems e.g. WoD garrison because of bonusses
- doing World Events
- doing old achievements (e.g. for mounts, titles, etc.)

and even then if they really want to do "old quests" some require you to downscale with chromie e.g. when seducing a mob below x% HP whilst others are easier at max level.

[Echeyakee]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

The only logical explanation is "well: some of those are actually old players who were banned or lost their accounts etc." because I can't fathom why someone who has literally 0 experience in the game shouldn't go through the vanilla zones first and only there.

What's the alternative? FFXIV's approach of "go do everything before you're allowed to have fun"? I remember grinding the ARR story quests for hours on end before they reigned it in. It was not that fun, at all.

[loras]

Rethinking about this i gotta say: They should add a catch-up mode for storytelling. Like every expansion should have something like a cinematic to cover all the developments from a bird's eye view.

Could make it into a series for something like Netflix, but that'd endanger its tie to the slow moving plot, and thus its catch-up function.

[richardhuntr]

The solution is simplifying the end game experience. Right now if I created a new character on a new account (so no alt benefits) I'd have to
-level to 60 without looms (fine)
-get to renown 80 (why?)
- farm / buy tokens to get gold to make 2 legendaries
- farm torghast to get the mats to use those same 2 legendaries
- probably repeat the last 2 for a while, as it's not immediatly obvious in game which legendaries a person needs.
- complete no less than 3 campaign storylines

All just to join my friends, it's way to much.

[Revamp Man]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

The only logical explanation is "well: some of those are actually old players who were banned or lost their accounts etc." because I can't fathom why someone who has literally 0 experience in the game shouldn't go through the vanilla zones first and only there.

The vanilla story makes 0 sense
The leveling of those zones makes 0 sense
The class trainers make 0 sense

As a new player you get to experience a relevant story in exiles reach and not have to go through a disjointed mess.

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The solution is simplifying the end game experience. Right now if I created a new character on a new account (so no alt benefits) I'd have to
-level to 60 without looms (fine)
-get to renown 80 (why?)
- farm / buy tokens to get gold to make 2 legendaries
- farm torghast to get the mats to use those same 2 legendaries
- probably repeat the last 2 for a while, as it's not immediatly obvious in game which legendaries a person needs.
- complete no less than 3 campaign storylines

All just to join my friends, it's way to much.

Renown 80 isn't really needed plus I think the token is purchasable for anyone
Two legendaries aren't expensive since you can just use 1 in most cases because you get the other for free
You do have to do torghast but you don't have to farm the mats since you can buy a bag in ZM that gives all the materials and just by doing torghast you'll have at least 6 legendary powers

I agree there's way too much because of all the systems they designed but it's not too difficult or too time consuming

[richardhuntr]

The vanilla story makes 0 sense

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Renown 80 isn't really needed plus I think the token is purchasable for anyone
Two legendaries aren't expensive since you can just use 1 in most cases because you get the other for free
You do have to do torghast but you don't have to farm the mats since you can buy a bag in ZM that gives all the materials and just by doing torghast you'll have at least 6 legendary powers

I agree there's way too much because of all the systems they designed but it's not too difficult or too time consuming

All of that is true for people who understand the game, and know what to do, from a new player perspective it's daunting (I've had personal reports of this from new players both in the "new player" chat and from friends I've tried to get to play the game. )

Remember that even joining your first "normal" dungeon can be daunting to a new player, nevermind all this stuff which assumes some knowledge of the game and it's systems.

[Gaidax]

Last thing they need to is to put up unreasonable entry requirements for new players.

IMO, everyone should flat out start at level 50 or 40 the very least and get a streamlined and fast experience that intros the world and main characters and then gets you right into latest expansion with optional way to start as level 1 for "full" leveling experience.

If someone wants to dig deeper - give them an option, but base should be getting right into latest goodies after like few hours of intro.

[someguy233]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

The only logical explanation is "well: some of those are actually old players who were banned or lost their accounts etc." because I can't fathom why someone who has literally 0 experience in the game shouldn't go through the vanilla zones first and only there.

With how ridiculously fast leveling is now, the utility of learning lore from old content just isnt there anymore. Probably best to just start with BFA as it set the modern lore going forward after all the former big bads were dealt with.

It sucks to have that missing for new players, but its for the best imo. Heck even new lore often relies on storytelling outside the game, like the books for example. If someone really wants to know the lore, the deep dives on youtube are certainly the way to go.

[Gaidax]

With how ridiculously fast leveling is now, the utility of learning lore from old content just isnt there anymore. Probably best to just start with BFA as it set the modern lore going forward after all the former big bads were dealt with.

It sucks to have that missing for new players, but its for the best imo. Heck even new lore often relies on storytelling outside the game, like the books for example. If someone really wants to know the lore, the deep dives on youtube are certainly the way to go.

I think that Dragonflight would make an excellent entry point for new players.

They should make some 2 hours initial streamlined story in old world, then off you go to Dragonflight. New players won't be confused with all the BFA/Shadowlands nonsense and not have to wrap their heads around Legion or Pandaria or whatever that's ancient history now.

Going to BFA is IMO silly, because it's like some instant world war there that you half do leveling and then you go to DF and suddenly everyone is hugs and kisses and the 2 prominent faction leaders nowhere to be seen.

Might as well use Dragonflight as a clean slate for new player entry.

[Revamp Man]

All of that is true for people who understand the game, and know what to do, from a new player perspective it's daunting (I've had personal reports of this from new players both in the "new player" chat and from friends I've tried to get to play the game. )

Remember that even joining your first "normal" dungeon can be daunting to a new player, nevermind all this stuff which assumes some knowledge of the game and it's systems.

It's knowledge you get by playing
Literally after you finish I think 3 layers of torghast you just get told to continue with the campaign
You eventually end up in ZM and there's a quest to look at the items the quartermaster sells and buying the bag for the legendary crafting.

Like I said though I definitely agree it's way too much right now but luckily in 4 months we will get back to
Level>gear>kill

The dungeon part is definitely case by case depending on the players ability to recognize what's going on since they have a dungeon experience in exiles reach

[Celvira]

The only two expansions that have ever been beginner friendly are Classic and Cata. The world needs a revamp but this is a dumb complaint.

Please no. A revamp would only further dilute what little wonder and sense of scale the world of Azeroth has left. Ever since Legion, Blizzard has made it their personal mission to ensure that every little square foot of land is used to propagate some quest, daily, or "rare" spawn. It makes all the current zones feel cluttered and bloated, and exploration of them becomes a tedious chore instead of curious fascination.

I'm not suggesting the world be large and empty for the sake of claiming the game has an expansive overworld, I just miss the sense of feeling swept up and getting lost in a fantasy world. Too much visual stimulation isn't always a good thing, and I firmly believes WoW suffers from sensory-overload with their recent designs.

[Cheezits]

Please no. A revamp would only further dilute what little wonder and sense of scale the world of Azeroth has left. Ever since Legion, Blizzard has made it their personal mission to ensure that every little square foot of land is used to propagate some quest, daily, or "rare" spawn. It makes all the current zones feel cluttered and bloated, and exploration of them becomes a tedious chore instead of curious fascination.

I'm not suggesting the world be large and empty for the sake of claiming the game has an expansive overworld, I just miss the sense of feeling swept up and getting lost in a fantasy world. Too much visual stimulation isn't always a good thing, and I firmly believes WoW suffers from sensory-overload with their recent designs.

Cata revamp is too bogged down in pop culture references and extremely time-specific moments. A revamp that makes things "evergreen" and focuses more on racial cultures would be excellent.

Hell, they are already building up the Forsaken zone threat to be Scarlets again, who are infinitely better rivals than the Worgen.

[epigramx]

I agree, but you have to get real: it is 2022, if you force players to play old content,

It doesn't necessarily have to be old content (or not exactly). They can technologically revamp the vanilla game, but keep the story intact.

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BfA is by far the best option for new players until they revamp the old world IMO.

All of the BfA leveling zones are very representative of WoW as a whole and their aesthetics and lore are simple and modern. Making everyone go through Shadowlands would just make things too complicated and the "vanilla" (actually revamped in cata) zones are just far too old and completely irrelevant to anything. None of the revamped vanilla zones tell any relevant lore, all the "important" stuff is directly related to Deathwing, a character that has been irrelevant for the last 5 expansions.

I think the experience for new players is actually rock solid and "almost" perfect. The problem with leveling is actually with Chromie Time, because as of right now if you actually want to experience an old expansion, you will never get explained anything, because Chromie Time doesn't intergrate the old endgame lore into the leveling and thus you miss out on so much.

That analysis makes me think the devs might have conjured up an unspoken rule, "in a cyclic manner and every other expansion: we'll make a "normal" expansion before a "doom" one".

So like: BfA was the "normal" setup and then SL is the "doom" scenario and the dragon islands is obviously another less doomy setup so the expansion after that is going to be "metal" again.

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Nope. Create a dk and talk to the lich king and do those start quests, then time travel back in time at lvl 58 to travel to outland (which already happened int he timeline at this point), just to time travel back to the future to go back to fighting the lich king again.


It was always very jarring for me back in the day

WotLK was already overrated as a story anyway; it's literally Darth Vader: for warcraft; young innocent boi taken over by the dark side and all.

[Thestrawman]

Five pages in and no one has mentioned that the zone stories are crap and if you were forced to do them you still wouldn't have any idea what's going on? Because all the story moments happen in raids.

[shise]

It doesn't necessarily have to be old content (or not exactly). They can technologically revamp the vanilla game, but keep the story intact.

WotLK was already overrated as a story anyway; it's literally Darth Vader: for warcraft; young innocent boi taken over by the dark side and all.

I agree on the first, but then again, makes no business sense because now we have classic servers. So that´s why they wouldn´t do it, as much as I´d also love it.

Second part, sorry but no. For that matter, all stories are always the same... a good guy turning "bad". Arthas never even turned bad, btw, he never did one single wrong thing. He got consumed and his presence simply disappeared, his body became the vessel of death. The lore in Warcraft has little to do with that of Star Wars.

[caervek]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

You mean just like when they allowed people who literally had no clue about Warcraft games at all and their history and knew nothing about the zones to enter immediately into the new "World Of Warcraft"?

Players are usually quite capable of finding out about the MMO they're playing in without hand holding, hell less than 1% of WoW players knew anything about the Warcraft universe before buying the game. In fact thinking back one of my coolest memories from Vanilla was finding a book in a watchtower (in Westfall I believe) that told tale of a dude named "Arthas" and how he had taken up a demon sword to defend his people but became corrupted, awesome stuff.

[Tojara]

Warcraft (not just WoW) is old. If I'm being honest most of the story beats of Warcraft only make sense (and I say this loosely) if you play WC3 then go through WoW. WC1 and WC2 aren't exactly stellar story telling vehicles either, whereas you can figure out most of the stuff pertaining to WoW from simply playing WC3 and TFT.

Lets not pretend that WoW has ever advanced the story at anything more than a glaciers pace. Vanilla is mostly about world building with small isolated stories (not exactly moving the story forward) while everything beyond it was based on leveling experience and episodic giant raid patches that moved everything an inch. The best thing FF14 does from a story perspective is that there's a solid conclusion to it's expansion when you finish it, with every patch after it leading up to the culmination of the next expansion launch.

WoW has stuff in it that tells a lot of events (there's books scattered everywhere), but it's simply not digestible for most players. It also doesn't force you to learn, which other games sometimes do.

If I'm being honest I don't think they really ruin the game for new subscribers as that's just assuming that people play games for story. I've played PoE for over 2000 hours and I have no fucking idea that there's even a story in that game, nor do I have any idea what's going on. To me I'm a guy/girl that is left on an island and I kill all sorts of monsters that keep on getting more and more well, bad? It's an amazing game I have every opportunity to sit down and understand shit, but as long as the core gameplay loop is engaging I'll still be playing it (and this is probably true of WoW for lots of people who want to play it).

Basically the story is there, but it's a huge hurdle to dig through everything (especially as it's presented in the game) with lots of retcons that erase previous happenings. Also, although there isn't that much in the old Vanilla you still need to loosely understand what happened in a lot of the Vanilla WoW zones to see the Cata era zones. Another thing people forget as well is virtually 50% of the story is fragmented between factions, meaning that critical plot points (misunderstandings, betrayals, point of views) are lost of the majority of players.

[hzjf]

ff14 has a story they tell from start to finish over several expansions.

WoW has a new Story for each new xpac and its a fucking Mess

[Zardas]

Five pages in and no one has mentioned that the zone stories are crap and if you were forced to do them you still wouldn't have any idea what's going on? Because all the story moments happen in raids.

Good thing you can solo the raids then