What is there for casuals?

[bullseyed]

If you are a healer / tank / making a group with your key, then yes it's quick. If you try to find a group as a DPS you will usually be waiting awhile. Is it 30+ minutes? No, but it can take anywhere from 5-20 minutes alone before some stop searching.

Takes no time at all to get into a key as a DPS, unless you're looking to be carried in a key you're not qualified to apply for, by dungeon score.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right. We must never criticize Blizzard, they always knows best and exactly what we want and need. Pathetic...

WoW and Blizzard are the gaming equivalent of Michael Jordan. By all means call up Jordan and tell him he doesn't know how to shoot a basketball.

[Katchii]

What did you expect It doesnt fit the narrative.

The only narrative I've had is that I'm having less fun in SL as I've ever had in WoW because of how it felt playing, which is different than in previous expansions.

You don't believe my reasons.

What's there to discuss? You're not interested in a discussion, all you both seem to be interested in is telling me I'm wrong and that my reasons are invalid because I'm not in the same league as you, or whatever, therefore my opinion doesn't matter.

Not interested in continuing that discussion with you.

[Lucetia]

I am simply following his words. "Mandatory dailies for power progression" when they havent existed in any way, shape or form in SL, and Blizzard even tripled downed on that with Zereth Mortis, which he said he didnt play so i cant call him out for that part, which he claims the amazing fun WQs from Legion were better, when i know all i did myself the weekly "mandatory" renown, was

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. While covenant is mentioned I just want to make a minor complaint (and it's not towards you). While I appreciate each covenant has a mini-game that is different and none are the same I wish they would've capped it at Rank 4 rather than 5 and balanced them a bit better. The Kyrian one comes to mind. While it is doable to an extent there are times you have to cheese it with glitches and stuff to hit the Rank 5 timers built in.

Stuff like the minigames I'd like to see more of where they aren't required for power, but offers cosmetics, mounts, and pets.

But how are the callings any different from the Legion callings?????

They are different, but again this is me knitpicking and has nothing to do with your comment so don't think I'm trying to be mean or anything, but I liked Legion's "callings" better because you could literally go pick 3-4 WQ's then turn it in. Shadowlands, and yes I know its because of covenant coding, you have to go pick up the quest then go do the 3-4 WQ's and sucks when you complete them and realize you forgot the quest. Especially if it's one of the "rare" ones you can only do once.

[bullseyed]

Exactly. Not even needed either for 95% of the keys. Get any tank, any healer, any 3 dps and u can do 15s. I look for lust and battle rez if I can to make it easier but def not needed. Never bothered seeking out the cov for a 15 either.

Yeah, a 15 listing "need ____ cov" is usually a red flag that they're bad at WoW. Especially when they're turning down 3k score people.

[Delever]

The only narrative I've had is that I'm having less fun in SL as I've ever had in WoW because of how it felt playing, which is different than in previous expansions.

You don't believe my reasons.

What's there to discuss? You're not interested in a discussion, all you both seem to be interested in is telling me I'm wrong and that my reasons are invalid because I'm not in the same league as you, or whatever, therefore my opinion doesn't matter.

Not interested in continuing that discussion with you.

You made an argument that you felt forced to do them in SL because they gave gear but not in Legion where they not only also gave the exact same gear but they also were one of the only ways for you to get a legendary. How does this make any sense???

[Lucetia]

If you played a 2nd character, you'd have tons of AP since every activity gave AP.

When people claim they want to play a 2nd character, they mean they want a fully geared 2nd character, without doing any of the gearing, so they can run 1-2 dungeons and then not play it again.

This feels like a double-edged sword. I liked having Artifact/Azerite Power to grind for as you still felt a little bit of power increase. It definitely did suck though if you wanted to play an alt. The problem with that though is there is no way to really benefit people who play alts and don't. If you made the power account wide for instance then people with alt armies could get to insane levels while those who play 1 or 2 would be behind and feel "forced" to play more alts. The only way I could see something like that working is by putting in a daily cap but then you have that arbitrary feeling of needing to hit the cap or be behind. Even if it was just an increasing cap each day like Artifact power was. Then you hit a point of where you get no benefit and then feel like you are wasting time.

Yeah, a 15 listing "need ____ cov" is usually a red flag that they're bad at WoW. Especially when they're turning down 3k score people.

Eh, just because someone has a 3k score doesn't mean anything. I have a few friends who have high ratings simply because they were carried and couldn't tell you what mechanics are in the dungeons.

[bullseyed]

You don't get to decide who gets to have an opinion on something like this or not, it's a video game, not some kind of field study where so-called expert opinions are needed.

Yeah, there is no such thing as college degrees in game design, nor expertise.

Heck, I got offered entrance into a PhD program on economies in MMO games in grad school.

Keep up that armchair quarterbacking, demonstrating you have no idea how stuff works.

[MrLachyG]

The standard raids, dungeons plus dragon riding. That’s it

[bullseyed]

This feels like a double-edged sword. I liked having Artifact/Azerite Power to grind for as you still felt a little bit of power increase. It definitely did suck though if you wanted to play an alt. The problem with that though is there is no way to really benefit people who play alts and don't. If you made the power account wide for instance then people with alt armies could get to insane levels while those who play 1 or 2 would be behind and feel "forced" to play more alts. The only way I could see something like that working is by putting in a daily cap but then you have that arbitrary feeling of needing to hit the cap or be behind. Even if it was just an increasing cap each day like Artifact power was. Then you hit a point of where you get no benefit and then feel like you are wasting time.

You don't need the abilities that come from AP if you have so little of it to not have them. When you fresh ding 60/70/whatever, you're not qualified to run a heroic raid. Saying you can't because you need AP is a feature, not a bug. Hopefully the success of things like WoW Classic will bring back raid attunements, which is effectively what AP was.

Eh, just because someone has a 3k score doesn't mean anything. I have a few friends who have high ratings simply because they were carried and couldn't tell you what mechanics are in the dungeons.

Luckily in a 15 you don't need to know the dungeon mechanics.

[Katchii]

Yeah, there is no such thing as college degrees in game design, nor expertise.

Heck, I got offered entrance into a PhD program on economies in MMO games in grad school.

Keep up that armchair quarterbacking, demonstrating you have no idea how stuff works.

We're not talking game design, we're talking fun in the game as a player.

Context matters.

[bullseyed]

What made you feel obligated to do the SL things, that you didnt feel obligated to do in Legion?

For me Legion was a shitshow where i was forced to play daily to keep my character up to par compared to SL where i only had to play Wednesday for 1 hour to do the same keeping up, maybe you enjoyed being useless because you dont care about it?

There has never been an expansion where any of that was required.

Harder to find some of the older data due to raider.io site updates, but Sire D was killed world first by players with 184 conduits, and only 2 conduit slots unlocked.

Sylvanas world first was gained by players with 226 conduits, and half the raid missing their capstone soulbind abilities / only 5 of 6 conduit slots unlocked.

Jailer had no AP grind (renown).

- - - Updated - - -

We're not talking game design, we're talking fun in the game as a player.

Context matters.

Fun is the same thing as saying your favorite color is blue and red is a bad color. No one cares. If you don't like this genre of game, there are other genres of game to play.

"I'm not having fun" is a YOU problem, not a Blizzard or us problem.

- - - Updated - - -

People refuse to accept that you can achieve some things while barely playing, and it infuriates them when you mention it, because it doesn't fit the narrative of their argument.

95% of the time when someone mentions a "problem" that Blizzard "needs" to fix, the problem is between the keyboard and chair.

To get CE, you DON'T need:
- Food
- Flasks
- Potions
- Max ilvl
- Max conduits
- AP

You just need to be able to play the game at a reasonable level, and find a guild of 19 other people who play at a reasonable level too.

[Katchii]

Fun is the same thing as saying your favorite color is blue and red is a bad color. No one cares. If you don't like this genre of game, there are other genres of game to play.

"I'm not having fun" is a YOU problem, not a Blizzard or us problem.

I never claimed otherwise?

All I said was that I've played WoW since Vanilla, have played in largely the same way and SL is the first time I've had this little fun playing the game.

And you say no one cares....that's false. Blizzard cares, not about me specifically, but about people having fun. If people aren't having fun, they leave which is not good for Blizzard.

I'm guessing the game play decisions and overall direction of Dragonflight as a return to the basics/ Classic feel of the game is because a not insignificant portion of the WoW population feels similar to how I feel.

[Delever]

I never claimed otherwise?

All I said was that I've played WoW since Vanilla, have played in largely the same way and SL is the first time I've had this little fun playing the game.

And you say no one cares....that's false. Blizzard cares, not about me specifically, but about people having fun. If people aren't having fun, they leave which is not good for Blizzard.

I'm guessing the game play decisions and overall direction of Dragonflight as a return to the basics/ Classic feel of the game is because a not insignificant portion of the WoW population feels similar to how I feel.

And yet a poster in this very same thread claimed Dragonflight is going to be a raid or die expansion. Do you see how different perception of things are?

[Dismayxz]

I'm not seeing anything being mentioned that wasnt also available for WoD which was a "raid or nothing" expansion.

That was kinda the question I was asking here. WoD is poster child for "There was nothing to do if you didnt raid so people quit" expansion and this one, thus far, seems to just be WoD with mythic+ and no new big expansion feature.

The same as in WoD, except you know have normal Reputations alongside Renown reputations, you have far more relevant crafting to do, Dragonriding is part of the casual loop and the datamined talents for Dragonriding that MMO posted some time ago hint at there being World activities around the system that go beyond just flying your dragon, like the races for example. There were talents surrounding Climbing World Quests, including some talents that are more group-oriented, but for the Climbing World Quests, like your dragon having a handhold for up to 4-5 players. The zones themselves are a lot more timeless isle nowadays, than they were back in WoD when this type of approach for World Content was a lot more fresh and experimental than it would later be in Legion, BFA and finally Shadowlands. There seems to be an Ember Court esque Tea Party in Valdrakken that happens at certain days of the week.

If you are looking for something r-wordedly easy that is equivalent to M+ or Raids, there's nothing beyond crafting. For the usual collection/World stuff crowd, there seems to be some variety of things to do purely for that leisure. Other than that, yeah it seems to be shaping into a bit more of WoD-esque Expansion, which is fine for an expansion that is supposed to set a new basis to build upon later.

[Katchii]

And yet a poster in this very same thread claimed Dragonflight is going to be a raid or die expansion. Do you see how different perception of things are?

It's a bit ironic coming from you who just a few posts ago was telling me I'm wrong about how I feel about SL because of my perception of the dailies in SL vs the dailies in other expansions.

So yes, I understand perception, are you sure you do?

[Delever]

It's a bit ironic coming from you who just a few posts ago was telling me I'm wrong about how I feel about SL because of my perception of the dailies in SL vs the dailies in other expansions.

So yes, I understand perception, are you sure you do?

That is not at all what I said yet you proved once again that you only reply to post that can somewhat fit your narrative. I even told you in one of my replies that I also liked Legion more than SL.

What I told you instead was that the arguments you were making here are disingenuous and make no sense.

You cannot say you felt forced to do callings in shadowlands and didnt feel forced to do them in Legion when objectively they were more mandatory in Legion. In shadowlands, callings have a small chance to give you incredibly shitty epics. In legion they had a chance and built towards your pitty of getting a random class legendary. Are you seriously telling me a shitty epic feels more mandatory than a piece of gear that at the time defined the gameplay of your class with the perk it provided?

[Katchii]

That is not at all what I said yet you proved once again that you only reply to post that can somewhat fit your narrative. I even told you in one of my replies that I also liked Legion more than SL.

What I told you instead was that the arguments you were making here are disingenuous and make no sense.

From your perspective and in your opinion. Your apparent inability to understand what I said seems to be willfully ignoring the aspect I keep bringing up which is how it felt while playing.

You cannot say you felt forced to do callings in shadowlands and didnt feel forced to do them in Legion when objectively they were more mandatory in Legion.

Yes I can. I already did. The difference between the two expansions was in Legion I was able to meet my gearing needs in other ways besides the dailies, I never felt that the dailies were necessary. Even with the Legendaries being part of them I never felt forced to do them to progress my character because I could relatively easily get decent enough gear to do every LFR and participate in a few Mythic+ runs. The fact that the Legiondaries were so RNG dependent meant I never tried to aim for them, I just played my character. In SL, the gearing options outside of Mythic+ for upgrades felt very limited to me and because of Mythic+ being the significantly more popular option that I never did (for various reasons but boil down to: groups wouldn't accept me due to my low ilevel and me not wanting to run my own group due to simply not wanting to wait or deal with that) Random Dungeon groups took forever and I could only ever get in 1-2 Heroics a day in between the dailies/tasks I was doing and rarely got upgrades.

In shadowlands, callings have a small chance to give you incredibly shitty epics. In legion they had a chance and built towards your pitty of getting a random class legendary. Are you seriously telling me a shitty epic feels more mandatory than a piece of gear that at the time defined the gameplay of your class with the perk it provided?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. I never did the dailies for a Legendary specifically. I did them for the reputation, for the gear rewards, all while waiting in queue for dungeons that gave more frequent gear upgrades. If I got a Legiondary? icing on the cake. Dailies were an activity I did while waiting for the random dungeon or LFR queues that gave decent enough rewards to make it worthwhile. In SL they were not just an activity I did while waiting in queue, I did them for the gear reward because my luck in getting gear drops from dungeons was terrible and queues took FOREVER.

The end result of dailies in the expansions may be the same to you, but the way it feels in SL vs other expansions is very different to me.

[Delever]

From your perspective and in your opinion. Your apparent inability to understand what I said seems to be willfully ignoring the aspect I keep bringing up which is how it felt while playing.



Yes I can. I already did. The difference between the two expansions was in Legion I was able to meet my gearing needs in other ways besides the dailies, I never felt that the dailies were necessary. Even with the Legendaries being part of them I never felt forced to do them to progress my character because I could relatively easily get decent enough gear to do every LFR and participate in a few Mythic+ runs. The fact that the Legiondaries were so RNG dependent meant I never tried to aim for them, I just played my character. In SL, the gearing options outside of Mythic+ for upgrades felt very limited to me and because of Mythic+ being the significantly more popular option that I never did (for various reasons but boil down to: groups wouldn't accept me due to my low ilevel and me not wanting to run my own group due to simply not wanting to wait or deal with that) Random Dungeon groups took forever and I could only ever get in 1-2 Heroics a day in between the dailies/tasks I was doing and rarely got upgrades.



Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. I never did the dailies for a Legendary specifically. I did them for the reputation, for the gear rewards, all while waiting in queue for dungeons that gave more frequent gear upgrades. If I got a Legiondary? icing on the cake. Dailies were an activity I did while waiting for the random dungeon or LFR queues that gave decent enough rewards to make it worthwhile. In SL they were not just an activity I did while waiting in queue, I did them for the gear reward because my luck in getting gear drops from dungeons was terrible and queues took FOREVER.

The end result of dailies in the expansions may be the same to you, but the way it feels in SL vs other expansions is very different to me.

would you be so kind as to enlighten me on those other activities in Legion that rewarded gear that are not available in shadowlands in the exact same way? Because I feel like we played a different Legion.

[Katchii]

would you be so kind as to enlighten me on those other activities in Legion that rewarded gear that are not available in shadowlands in the exact same way? Because I feel like we played a different Legion.

I never said they didn't exist in SL.

The difference, I'm assuming, comes from the fact that in Legion it felt like Heroic and even Normal dungeons were still viable and widely used ways of acquiring gear that meant Random Dungeons were used more often making queues shorter. I also don't remember drop rates being as bad in Legion as they seem in SL.

In SL, it seems like Mythic+ has cannabalized everything as the primary way of gearing everyone, so random dungeons aren't widely used so queues are much longer and in my experience, the rate of acquiring upgrades is significantly lower than it was in Legion. Maybe that's just my perception because I ran so many more in a row in Legion than I have in SL that it just feels lower?

This made it seem like I had to try and get gear from wherever I could, including dailies. They were no longer JUST a side activity I did to pass the time, they were directly tied to my character progression because of how I played the game.

I don't participate in Mythic+ very often. Mainly because I'm not accepted into groups because my ilevel is so low and I don't have Raider.io and the few times I've tried making my own group resulted in more trouble and time than it was worth to me.

I just want to log in, do my own thing a little bit while waiting for random dungeons or LFR, do my job in the group and log off when I'm done/ after a couple hours. Creating my own group and actively searching for groups to get into a dungeon, or managing a group are more work than I want to put into that kind of thing and I've been able to play like that ever since WotLK. SL is the first time where I've not been able to enjoy myself by playing that way.

This is not a cry for help or me saying Blizzard needs to change it or saying I'm right you're wrong or anything. It's literally just my perception of the game and how it feels/felt to me.

[Osmeric]

Shadowlands is the least fun version of WoW I've ever played.

It's amazing how this worked. I noticed it immediately after the expansion released. Fun just seemed to be absent. It was striking and not a little infuriating. I lasted about three weeks before I threw in the towel on the expansion, the game, and the company.

I'm not interested in justifying this feeling, nor should you feel you have to either. At this point, explaining a problem might help Blizzard fix it, but I'm angered enough that I don't want Blizzard to fix their faults. I want them to fail.