Texas Elementary School Shooting, as many as 22 dead, including Children

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I said he shouldn't even have been there once his wife was involved a few pages back.

And that's the thing I have been saying this entire time. I'm not sure why everyone wants to @me.

[Endus]

And that's the thing I have been saying this entire time. I'm not sure why everyone wants to @me.

Like, can we agree on these things?

1> The officers should've engaged ASAP, not over an hour later.
2> This officer shouldn't have been allowed onto the site, he should have been told to stay at the PD.
3> This officer BEING on-site is thus a failure both of his own ethical conduct (though minor), and also his command's (major).
4> Since he was on-site from the earliest time, this isn't an argument against him charging in, because see #1; that's what they should've been doing. Whether he should've been there or not is secondary to this. We can consider it also, but we shouldn't consider it instead, if you see what I mean.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Like, can we agree on these things?

1> The officers should've engaged ASAP, not over an hour later.
2> This officer shouldn't have been allowed onto the site, he should have been told to stay at the PD.
3> This officer BEING on-site is thus a failure both of his own ethical conduct (though minor), and also his command's (major).
4> Since he was on-site from the earliest time, this isn't an argument against him charging in, because see #1; that's what they should've been doing. Whether he should've been there or not is secondary to this. We can consider it also, but we shouldn't consider it instead, if you see what I mean.

I've never suggested that we should focus solely on the fact that this officer should not have been on scene. I've just been saying that he should not have been involved at all. It's a further example of how fucked their response was that the even let him in the building.

[Endus]

I've never suggested that we should focus solely on the fact that this officer should not have been on scene. I've just been saying that he should not have been involved at all.

Yeah, I just think that was possibly why there was confusion/tension. A lot of people make "but what about Y" arguments as deflections, so they can get people to stop talking about X. When both X and Y can be shit, mutually. I wasn't trying to correct anyone, I just think people were talking at cross-purposes rather than actually disagreeing.

I only picked your post to respond to because it was the most recent, not because it was the one causing problems.

[Ripster42]

4> Since he was on-site from the earliest time, this isn't an argument against him charging in, because see #1; that's what they should've been doing. Whether he should've been there or not is secondary to this. We can consider it also, but we shouldn't consider it instead, if you see what I mean.

I'll agree with the other 3 points, but not this one. It's absolutely an argument against him charging in. People emotionally involved on a personal level should not be firing guns in a classroom full of kids.

[cubby]

We're starting to see confliction body cam image evidence as well as other indications that the Cowardly Fuck Chief was involved and in charge from almost the beginning.

My guess is, along with all the other fuckery this asshats are running (small town corruption, useless fucking "cops", etc.) they are hoping that delaying any investigation will help the entire thing blow over so the 5-second news cycle attention span of the country will be focused elsewhere when it all comes out.

(just to be clear, my criticism is of the Uvalde cops in particular, not of cops overall - I support our LEO's overall)

- - - Updated - - -

I'll agree with the other 3 points, but not this one. It's absolutely an argument against him charging in. People emotionally involved on a personal level should not be firing guns in a classroom full of kids.

While a good point, because we typically do not want emotionally involved officers taking part in any situation, it is superseded by his duty as a sworn officer to protect. The first order of business was to take out the shooter. Period. Any other factor was secondary.

[Breccia]

SOmething else here

Okay.

FOX News is taking the opportunity to go after Al Gore, who in turn said people who do nothing about climate change are like the Uvadle cops.

Anything to deflect, I guess?

[cubby]

Okay.

Yeah, sorry about that. I was working as well, and cut/pasted the wrong thing to save the "spot".

Looking at it reminds me of the Blue Shirt Guy 2 in the movie Free Guy.

FOX News is taking the opportunity to go after Al Gore, who in turn said people who do nothing about climate change are like the Uvadle cops.

Anything to deflect, I guess?

I think that's all Faux "News" has at this point - deflection.

[Breccia]

Well now that I've directly cited FOX News, I'm not just allowed to, but duty-bound to also cite CNN.

And boy, do they have some things to say about the chain of command.

The first publicly released body-worn camera videos from officers at the Robb Elementary School massacre show Pedro "Pete" Arredondo, the school district's police chief, at the center of the police response: giving orders, conveying and receiving information, and officers deferring to his position when confused over their roles or response to the shooting.

"Yeah, cubby just said that."

He did. And it's not really a big surprise the guy in command was the guy in command. Except for the guy in command.

Arredondo told the House investigative committee that he did not "consider himself to have assumed incident command," according to the legislative report -- which quoted the chief as saying, "My approach and thought was responding as a police officer. And so I didn't title myself."

"As far as ... I'm talking about the command part ... the people that went in, there was a big group of them outside that door," the chief told the committee, according to its report. "I have no idea who they were and how they walked in or anything. I kind of ... wasn't given that direction."

The report said, "To the extent any officers considered Chief Arredondo to be the overall incident commander, they also should have recognized that was inconsistent with him remaining inside the building."

So...yeah, the guy in command didn't think he was the guy in command, but everyone else did. Which leads to...well, this thread, honestly.

"A lot of folks not acting were not acting because they were expecting or that they would be told what they should be doing," said Thor Eells, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association. "I guess he can argue forever, 'I didn't think I was in command, just went in there trying to be one of the boys.' Maybe. But you still had four stars on your shoulder, still telling people what to do and not to do, had the sergeant telling people 'chief's in there.' There's enough influence there that it had an impact, none of it good."

And as officers nearby appeared to defer to his rank and position near the shooter, the preliminary report by the Texas House investigative committee faulted Arredondo for failing to "perform or to transfer to another person the role of incident commander. This was an essential duty he had assigned to himself in the plan ... yet it was not performed effectively by anyone."

"A complete cop out. That's him trying to justify after the fact why he is not responsible for what happened," said Bill Francis, a former FBI agent who was a leader on the bureau's elite Hostage Rescue Team for 17 years, referring to Arredondo's claim that he was not in charge. "He absolutely, in my opinion, considered himself in charge when he was in there. And he just made a series of bad decisions."

"Wow. Doesn't sound like it could get much worse."

Arredondo, whose officers normally carry a radio to communicate among the schools and another to monitor local police frequencies, "was fumbling with (his two radios) and they bothered him, so he dropped them by the school fence knowing that Sgt. (Daniel) Coronado, the sergeant on patrol, was there and 'fully uniformed' with his radio," according to the Texas House committee report.

"I stand horrifyingly corrected."

Arrendondo was pulling a Picard, going into the building while still in command...not a great idea. And the radio silence thing makes bad enough, worse. But now, as he either admits complete incompetence at the scene or tries to deflect from his sequence of child-murdering command decisions, one question is raised:

If he legitimately didn't think he was in command...who did he think was?

[Edge-]

Man, he really just wants to keep earning a paycheck for doing nothing. Refuses to resign, city is slow-walking firing his ass. I can only imagine how this is impacting the social connections given the tight-knit community there. Kinda messy when your cousin is the guy who was in charge when your niece was killed due to his incompetence/cowardice, and you still have to see him at family BBQ's.

[Poopymonster]

Man, he really just wants to keep earning a paycheck for doing nothing. Refuses to resign, city is slow-walking firing his ass. I can only imagine how this is impacting the social connections given the tight-knit community there. Kinda messy when your cousin is the guy who was in charge when your niece was killed due to his incompetence/cowardice, and you still have to see him at family BBQ's.

That level of awkward/messy reminds me of a video parody "The Purge: The next day"
Bill: So Tom, looks like you survived last night.
Tom: Yeah I did Bill. You shot my wife.
Bill: Well, Purge night.....so...um......
Tom: Hey Don, you made it.
Don: Yeah, I did, you did too. Tom...
Tom: Don..did you know Bill shot my wife last night?
Don: Sorry to hear that, was that before or after you burned down my house?
Tom: Um, are you sure it was...um
Don: Yes. Cameras got your face close up.
Tom: Um...well...Purge...you know...
Bill: *nods*

[Ripster42]

While a good point, because we typically do not want emotionally involved officers taking part in any situation, it is superseded by his duty as a sworn officer to protect. The first order of business was to take out the shooter. Period. Any other factor was secondary.

You don't want that dude shooting a gun in a classroom full of kids. There were already enough other people there to do what you're suggesting. To protect those kids, he shouldn't be going into a classroom full of kids and firing a gun.

[Edge-]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/uvalde-sch...ry?id=87400644

School principal suspended -

A special legislative investigation into the May 24 massacre at the school found that Gutierrez was aware of security problems prior to a shooter accessing the school -- killing 19 students and two teachers -- but she had not had the problems fixed.

District officials declined to discuss the suspension or what it means.

But this part gets me -

The district’s Raptor security system is being reworked so emergency alerts are clearer for users. The district has also asked for 30 to 40 state troopers to be on hand to assist on the first day of school.

Ah yes, a pointlessly expensive security blanket for adults so they can feel like they're doing something! I'm sure having some of the same folks who stood around while their friends bled to death will be a comfort to them, while they stand around doing nothing on day 1 of school.

Seriously, the people in charge are beyond incompetent and they all seem like they're desperately trying to protect their own asses first, foremost, and exclusively.

[Breccia]

"Gutierrez was aware of security problems"

"The principal knew the school wasn't ready for the average American with a weapon of war coming out of fucking nowhere! Clearly the problem is the principal, not the heavily armed insane people Texas is so proud of!"

Sure, go ahead and fire him. Why not, he's clearly part of the problem. We can also post-mortem fire the two dead teachers. They probably knew there was a problem a few seconds before the high-powered ammunition ripped through their bodies.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/uvalde-sch...ry?id=87400644

School principal suspended -



But this part gets me -



Ah yes, a pointlessly expensive security blanket for adults so they can feel like they're doing something! I'm sure having some of the same folks who stood around while their friends bled to death will be a comfort to them, while they stand around doing nothing on day 1 of school.

Seriously, the people in charge are beyond incompetent and they all seem like they're desperately trying to protect their own asses first, foremost, and exclusively.

Let's assume that she did know about those security problems...did she report them to the school board, did the school board pass that report to the next level, and so on?

[Edge-]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/media...lde/index.html

More than a dozen major news organizations have filed a lawsuit against the Texas Department of Public Safety to obtain public records relating to the Robb Elementary School massacre.

The coalition includes CNN, the Texas Tribune, and many of the state and the country's biggest news outlets.

The news organizations have been fighting for weeks to obtain information on behalf of the public amid serial falsehoods and stonewalling from Texas officials in the aftermath of the mass shooting.

The lawsuit, filed in state court in Austin, arises under the Texas Public Information Act, which enables news outlets and members of the public to pursue litigation to obtain records. The news outlets cited many previous requests for information and an "ensuing failure to disclose public records concerning this abhorrent tragedy."

"The Texas Department of Public Safety has offered inconsistent accounts of how law enforcement responded to the Uvalde tragedy, and its lack of transparency has stirred suspicion and frustration in a community that is still struggling with grief and shock," said Laura Lee Prather, a First Amendment lawyer at Haynes Boone who represents the plaintiffs. "DPS has refused numerous requests by these news organizations even though it's clear under Texas law that the public is entitled to have access to these important public records. We ask that the court grant our petition so that the people of Texas can understand the truth about what happened."

The suit notes that the public safety department has "selectively disclosed" information, but has dismissed more thorough records requests. Thus the news outlets want the court to order the department "to produce all responsive records."

The other participating news organizations are ABC, CBS, NBC, The New York Times, Wall Street Journal owner Dow Jones, The Washington Post, and ProPublica; local TV and media companies Gannett, Graham Media, Scripps and TEGNA

Nicole Carroll, the editor in chief of Gannett's USA Today, said on CNN's "Reliable Sources" last month that the coalition is necessary because "we need to get to the truth. And we're fighting for these records so we can get the truth."

Officials have "been stonewalling us" and changing their stories, she pointed out. "We've been misled, documents have been withheld."

Hopefully we can get some transparency eventually. But I'm still worried that Uvalde PD (or maybe DPS) ended up shooting one of the kids/teachers and that's why they continue to stonewall public records requests.

[Edge-]

https://twitter.com/travisakers/stat...46910101250051

Abbott supporters seem nice. Attending a Beto event where Beto was talking about the Uvalde shooting, the attendee decided to laugh about it because I guess kids being killed with weapons of war so frightening that they keep hundreds of law enforcement at-bay for over an hour while they wait on more and more tactical gear. Because I guess there's something funny about that to conservatives or something.

"It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it's not funny to me."

Yeah Abbott supporters, dead kids is hilarious. Reminder, Republicans hate children. Go Beto.

[gondrin]

https://twitter.com/travisakers/stat...46910101250051

Abbott supporters seem nice. Attending a Beto event where Beto was talking about the Uvalde shooting, the attendee decided to laugh about it because I guess kids being killed with weapons of war so frightening that they keep hundreds of law enforcement at-bay for over an hour while they wait on more and more tactical gear. Because I guess there's something funny about that to conservatives or something.

"It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it's not funny to me."

Yeah Abbott supporters, dead kids is hilarious. Reminder, Republicans hate children. Go Beto.

Honestly, that is about one of the only times someone should be punched right in the mouth. I would go to jail just because of that and be proud of it to shut up a person that would laugh about dead kids.

[Edge-]

Honestly, that is about one of the only times someone should be punched right in the mouth. I would go to jail just because of that and be proud of it to shut up a person that would laugh about dead kids.

I'm pretty surprised if that person got out without having the crap kicked outta them. Not gonna lie, if I was there and happened to have a box of screws in my car I might have accidentally dropped a few behind the tires of his car. Total mistake, honest accident, could happen to anyone.

I mean probably not, but the dude deserves it. Holy shit fuck that loser.

Even if he's just laughing about Beto "being wrong about the gun", I'm once again here to remind folks that the gun the shooter had was such a threat to law enforcement that they cowered in fear while waiting on backup and tactical gear, in direct contradiction of their explicit training for an active shooter situation.

[unfilteredJW]

I'm pretty surprised if that person got out without having the crap kicked outta them. Not gonna lie, if I was there and happened to have a box of screws in my car I might have accidentally dropped a few behind the tires of his car. Total mistake, honest accident, could happen to anyone.

I mean probably not, but the dude deserves it. Holy shit fuck that loser.

Even if he's just laughing about Beto "being wrong about the gun", I'm once again here to remind folks that the gun the shooter had was such a threat to law enforcement that they cowered in fear while waiting on backup and tactical gear, in direct contradiction of their explicit training for an active shooter situation.

You might run into a good guy with a screwdriver. Be careful.