KSM is too easy.

[Eazy]

In +15 you're getting 262ilvl items which are upgradeable to 272 after receiving 2500 rating.
You are also getting a totally random item from the weekly vault at ilvl 278.

While mythic raiding rewards 278ilvl straight away and 285ilvl for the last three bosses.

I think the system is fine as it is.

So it takes the same amount of time to clear the M+15s as it does to clear the new mythic raid? Thats what you are trying to say? Do high end players spend days progressing on the same M+15 before clearing it?

What's the point of that question?
Every boss of mythic sepulcher take less time than any M+15.

I know where are you coming from, but that comparison is just bad.

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

I don't agree with the OP, but I also don't agree with you.
I think we should worry what other people are getting in the game. That's the reason why there's an option in LFG to put the minimal ilvl.
And yes, it does diminish the work. If a random player is getting 278ilvl BIS item the first week after being carried in M+15 and some pro, who does 8x M>15 and kill 11 mythic bosses still doesn't get the item after a few weeks then it's really unfair.
The difference is still miniscule, because the pro will have much better gear in less time, but the problem still stands.

The reward should be equal to the effort.
Random BIS items drops cause faster burn out and irritation.

The system isn't perfect, but it's the best as we've had in this game for now and I like it as it is.
EDIT:
You know what? I'd actually put 278ilvl items in the weekly vault only after receiving 2,5k rating, so it would make it more fair.

[mojusk]

its like comparing oranges and apples imo.
but i usually say that the difficulty of KSM is equal to the first raid boss(es) on mythic.
however this season m+ is easier than usual and raiding is harder, so that comparison may not be as true as usual.
the later raid bosses are undeniably harder.

m+ only gives 272 gear and 1 piece of 278 from the vault.
raiding drops 1-2 pieces of 278-285 gear per person and 1 piece of 278-285 gear from the vault.
so i would say that mythic raiding rewards better loot, which it should.

tbh i think m+ rewards caps at a too low difficulty. i suggest that it should unlock upgrades to 278 gear when you got a rating equal to +20 in every dung. and maybe 285 weapons or at +25.

[Revamp Man]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

oh yeah because mythic shriekwing, terragrue, and guardian were so tough

get better bait man

[DechCJC]

While I agree that you probably 'shouldn’t' care too much what gear other people have; I also do think that top gear from M+ should be from +20. For a lot of raiders that aren’t top level, if you want to get the best gear from the vault, doing a +15 is basically necessary due to how much easier it is. EDIT - I actually like Paxen's solution more than mine, a few posts down.

Personally, it doesn’t bother me either way - but I do think the rewards are lopsided. Maybe you think it doesn’t matter, but quite frankly that’s not for anyone to decide if others should care. I think it's pretty objective that one path leads to end-game gear with much less hassle and difficulty than the other, so it's not hard to imagine that people are going to be annoyed at feeling like they need to take that path, even if they're only in it for the raid.

Frankly though, to say that you shouldn't care when others get for free what you worked for... I don't really agree with that. If glad mounts or rank 1 titles started going on to the store I'd be very peeved (even if a lot of people can and will get boosted to the former).

[Delekii]

Do you believe a M+15 is as challenging as a mythic raid? Just the raw difficulty of the content, ignoring logistics.

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So it takes the same amount of time to clear the M+15s as it does to clear the new mythic raid? Thats what you are trying to say? Do high end players spend days progressing on the same M+15 before clearing it?

Time and difficulty aren't analogous.

[arkanon]

Time and difficulty aren't analogous.

It is when you realise I am comparing FIRST clears. Not time per clear.

[Caprias]

Raiding is just in general and especially this tier too unrewarding(not only loot but also gameplay wise), mythic+ is fine.

Lfr(lol)/normal and heroic are irrelevant, if you could do heroic in the first few weeks you shouldn't have the slightest problem with doing +15 keys and the only reason to raid was to get tier sets faster.

Mythic meets you with the headache to manage and maintain 22-24 players 3 evenings/week just to be a middle of the pack guild that will take several months to even get to the only few interesting 285 items, with Blizzards hard on for granular oneshot wipe mechanics a single person can fuck up, the fights themselves are also not fun or rewarding in any way, I think the participation numbers speak for themselves here.

[micwini]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

While I do get and agree with your point, these are not the best examples. Yes if someone gets the same car as you, it will have less value. Say you have car X. You worked your ass off for it. There is only 1 in the world. Now, a year later, 5 people win car X for free. There are now a total of 6 car X's in the world. Yes that means it has less value.
Another example would be any kind of certificate. If you earn it while it is omega hard to get and people 5 year later can get it way easier, yes, the one you have is devalued, because it was harder to get in the past.

While gear in WoW has the same effect regardless of where you got it, it does kind of feel wrong when you get that sweet 278 item after killing a mythic boss, only to see people run around decked out in it by 278's. The only difference is that in WoW this is not a new thing and has been the case since Legion.

A better example would be: Is your nice and well trimmed garden less valued because the neighbour hired professionals, while you did it all by yourself? Not really, you both have a nice garden and it would be the same value, if you would ever sell your house.

[ohwell]

This is the best reply I’ve ever seen on this site

It really isn't because some of the first statements that he thought were some shattering points were actually very incorrect in terms of real world application. Yes, real world things are devalued when others get the same thing for free. That's literally how things work.

[paxen]

The system isn't quite right, but it's got very little to do with mythic raiding.

Heroic raiding, otoh, is dominated by gear from 15s. Ahead of the Curve and Keystone Master feels very equivalent, yet one awards you a certain amount of 278 gear, while the other maxes out at 272.

I think the solution is for the vault to only give m+ items equal to chest drops, and instead let m+ gear be upgraded all the way to (the equivalent of) 285 gear with valor and the appropriate rating. Probably at least whatever rating having every dungeon timed on 20 on both tyrannical and fortified (300 per dungeon if I'm reading stuff right). Maybe even higher for 285.

You'd also get more valor than 750 per week, as valor replaces the higher ilvl from vault drops.

So if you get KSM you can upgrade to 272, you've completed the "heroic" level challenge and should have access to the same gear as somebody who has Curve. Exactly as now, except that vault only rewards up to 262. But you'd get more valor, and the system should continue all the way up to 285 at 2400 or 2500 (which, in seasons that are not season 3, requires 20s in all dungeons) or maybe even 3000 (although 3000 in past seasons is rather high)

[Trumpcat]

Mythic raiding is incomparably harder than 15s and I wouldn't mind if it were rewarded better for the much greater effort it requires. Even though I'm not doing it. In a way it does reward better with some bis trinkets and other items, as well as the increased ilevel of the final bosses loot, although getting to the point where you are reliably farming these is already beyond most groups who engage in mythic.

What I don't understand is people who argue against the hardest content giving the best rewards.

[Zarathos]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

Do you have OF? that turned me on!

[Tentim]

Mythic raiding is incomparably harder than 15s and I wouldn't mind if it were rewarded better for the much greater effort it requires. Even though I'm not doing it. In a way it does reward better with some bis trinkets and other items, as well as the increased ilevel of the final bosses loot, although getting to the point where you are reliably farming these is already beyond most groups who engage in mythic.

What I don't understand is people who argue against the hardest content giving the best rewards.

I always thought the chest was the issue. It's just to large of a "cheat". Roll the mythic ilv loot into 20s then let the system work itself out instead of cheating ilv.

[Zarathos]

I can say with 110% certainty, I have only ever cared about my stuff.

Its truly mind bending trying to understand folks who worry about how others get their gear.

All of that said, I don't think its unreasonable to expect a better reward for more time and work invested, indeed, had the OP been more along the lines of, 'Hey, mythic raids are a ton harder than +15 mythics, shouldn't we get something for our effort?' that might have come across a lot better.

Same, I mean i think is childish to have a tantrum because in a "mainstream" game u want to be exclusive...There's something called "inclusivity" and first of all not everybody has KSM. I stopped raiding in 9.0 because i cant standanded the toxicity anymore so i begin to play alone what is truly hard and a challenge itself because ppl watch your "Rio" and even if your class has over level the m+ you are instant rejected, but theeeeeeeen when u finally join a party u see ppl with greens for a 16...KSM it's not a "gift", u get 1 item to pick per week, ONE, and u need to be lucky, LUCKY, to get an item who fits u. If ppl want to complain they should look first at the mirror because i have the feeling that they are upset because they want more ppl to buy those 15's, 16',17's ,or whatever, to make their buyers feel exclusive and charge them more gold or real money. The game is full of hypocrite ppl because they are the first who get carried over by others doing content and they can only afford to play 1 class Raiding to then complain and cry because the content is to hard, meanwhile they take damage from every single area of effect, kill half of the raid because they want to move a way in a mechanic etc...HYPOCRISY!!!!!

Edit: there is someone asking for 3000 to get KSM, top 1% has 3200 right now so the other 99% dont have the right...A little bit fascist

[Dacu]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

On the same level, lets have them reduce the ilvl of mythic raid gear every time they nerf the bosses. Weren't good enough to kill them in their original state? You don't deserve the same gear that people who killed it pre-nerf got. To give out welfare gear to post-nerf casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

I'll bet you JUST cleared mythic after the mass nerfs as well.

0/10 post

[schwarzkopf]

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

LOL - boasting much

KSM is not easy, it requires more skill than raiding - in a raid an individual is 5-10% of the outcome, in an M+ an individual is 20% of the outcome.

You can easily be carried in raids, but it is a bit harder to be carried in an M+.

In addition - there is a HUGE block in getting KSM because of the lack of tanks and healers, which are ratioed for raids not for M+.


So - objectively speaking, as a matter of fact - you are incorrect OP.

[paxen]

Edit: there is someone asking for 3000 to get KSM, top 1% has 3200 right now so the other 99% dont have the right...A little bit fascist

Dunno if this is a response to me or not, but just to clarify: KSM should stay at 15s. But they need to stretch out the gearing ladder for M+, not because of mythic raiders, but because of heroic raiders, who currently "should" get their gear from doing 15s and not killing heroic bosses.

Conversely M+ should *also* reward very top end gear (285) at some point, just so that you can be a world class M+er without also being a top end mythic raider.

[Soikona]

I can say with 110% certainty, I have only ever cared about my stuff.

Its truly mind bending trying to understand folks who worry about how others get their gear.

All of that said, I don't think its unreasonable to expect a better reward for more time and work invested, indeed, had the OP been more along the lines of, 'Hey, mythic raids are a ton harder than +15 mythics, shouldn't we get something for our effort?' that might have come across a lot better.

I am kinda the same. If someone buys boosts all the time, it is someone I wouldn’t have in my team. Just because, to me, it indicates laziness, entitlement or lack of skill. All of which have no place on my team.

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Dunno if this is a response to me or not, but just to clarify: KSM should stay at 15s. But they need to stretch out the gearing ladder for M+, not because of mythic raiders, but because of heroic raiders, who currently "should" get their gear from doing 15s and not killing heroic bosses.

Conversely M+ should *also* reward very top end gear (285) at some point, just so that you can be a world class M+er without also being a top end mythic raider.

Or just do M+ gear and raid gear the same as PVP. Where it’s higher in that content.

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LOL - boasting much

KSM is not easy, it requires more skill than raiding - in a raid an individual is 5-10% of the outcome, in an M+ an individual is 20% of the outcome.

You can easily be carried in raids, but it is a bit harder to be carried in an M+.

In addition - there is a HUGE block in getting KSM because of the lack of tanks and healers, which are ratioed for raids not for M+.


So - objectively speaking, as a matter of fact - you are incorrect OP.

You think M+ KSM is easier than a guild doing mythic raiding?

[LordVargK]

KSM is not too easy, raids are too hard.

I don't understand, why m+ has its loot upgraded in the great vault and raids do not.
I also don't understand, why m+ loot is upgradable via Valor points and raid loot is not.

In practice running raids atm is a just for fun activity for me and my guild. It's very rare that anyone drops useful loot, since most players also run m+ and get way better gear there.

[schwarzkopf]

You think M+ KSM is easier than a guild doing mythic raiding?

No - but I never said that. But feel free to make stuff up as you go.