[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Tentim]

one day they will discover how the people they hire lay and manipulate social media buzz to pretend that their poor shows are more interesting and liked than they actually are.

What I suspect is happening is that to keep their jobs these guys are feeding their investors b/s reasons for the failure of the show or the poorer performances and then using social media and the access media that their fellow cohorts are in as evidence to support.

One day the investors are going to realise these guys have been b/sing them to keep their jobs and are actually making crap that really isn't that popular.

RJs the Wheel of Time was popular globally, and highly critically acclaimed, yet for some reason, the show runners felt they knew better and could alter his work for their own fantasies and think that thier "in the bubble" view of the world is what everyone would like.


As a result you got an excellent story turn out as mediocre run of the mill garbage with the same scenarios and set up like almost every show in the last 2-4 years has been. All the charm of the original work lost in the intersectional feminism, critical race theory activist conversions more interested in their own fanfic than that of the established author's.

The end result is a vastly inferior product and a far less interested global and national community - because frankly, they just don't relate tot he story in this changed format and don't like it enough.

Seriously, everything charming and unique or classic about the wheel of time, many of the good bits, are completely removed - and there is no justifiable or good reason for this.

Furthermore, the show looks cheap, the scenes often don't make sense - and none of this is what the author actually did - it literally ruins his work because it has the name of that work on it.

In their defense I don't think the wheel of time could ever be made into a media that isn't a book or a audio book... maybe a play?

The issue is so much of the story the majority if in remembering correctly is inner dialogues and you can't translate that to television.

[Twdft]

In their defense I don't think the wheel of time could ever be made into a media that isn't a book or a audio book... maybe a play?

The issue is so much of the story the majority if in remembering correctly is inner dialogues and you can't translate that to television.

It's just a matter of perspective. As a series "based upon the books" Wheel of Time is absolutely OK, entertaining and rightfully renewed for season 3 this early. If you want "100% faithful translation of all source material" you're right.

[Tentim]

It's just a matter of perspective. As a series "based upon the books" Wheel of Time is absolutely OK, entertaining and rightfully renewed for season 3 this early. If you want "100% faithful translation of all source material" you're right.

You could be right you have to account for different tastes. I struggled to get through ep 3 though I also didn't care for most television shows this year.

[Mace]

In their defense I don't think the wheel of time could ever be made into a media that isn't a book or a audio book... maybe a play?

The issue is so much of the story the majority if in remembering correctly is inner dialogues and you can't translate that to television.

I remember that, but I think that is where creativity comes in - how do you tackle that or bring out all that information? Do you have an "inner voice" narration, done in a clever way like some shows have done in the past? , do you insert dialogue to convey it? or do you just present the situation with subtle clues that indicate and leave it to the viewer to decide and then buy the book to get the fleshed out nuance while you focus on cleverly adapting these scene and getting the right vibe and atmosphere.

It has so many stains to it.. they totally missed the suspense -- stranger things like vibe Rand and Tam on the road to Emonds field in chapter 1 would have, when he thinks he sees the fade, that is mystery thriller/ suspense - straight off, that peaks your interest, what vibe or setting would you build for that scene, music? then the gossip that happens between the boys?

The charm of a deceptively simple run of the mill life in a seemingly ordinary normal village that has no idea of what is to come - that is classic charm that could be powerful, no one does things like that any more and we haven't seen it done well for a while.. Stranger things is super successful because it does a classic thing very well that no one does any longer because snubs think it's cliched - whereas you have a whole generation that's never seen something like that because all the modern stuff is regurgitated standardised and now socio-political/religio-cultural manipulating ideologically driven grable..


It's sad

[Biomega]

I mean, the WoT books aren't even that great, it's not like they're masterpieces of literary writing or anything. They're solid - it's a decent story with good characters and detailed world-building. It falls apart a bit at the end and there's about 2 books too many in the lot, but it's a very serviceable, B+ kind of fantasy narrative.

Translating that to the screen shouldn't be super hard. You have tons to work with, everything is fleshed out in great detail, all you need to do is put it together in a cinematic way so people don't get lose in plot details or don't understand the connections. You give this to an industry veteran, they should be able to churn out totally fine TV scripts in no time.

How they could royally screw things up as they did is beyond me. It's almost an achievement in and of itself to miss the mark so completely when you have a playbook of many volumes ready at your service.

[bledgor]

I remember that, but I think that is where creativity comes in - how do you tackle that or bring out all that information? Do you have an "inner voice" narration, done in a clever way like some shows have done in the past? , do you insert dialogue to convey it? or do you just present the situation with subtle clues that indicate and leave it to the viewer to decide and then buy the book to get the fleshed out nuance while you focus on cleverly adapting these scene and getting the right vibe and atmosphere.

It has so many stains to it.. they totally missed the suspense -- stranger things like vibe Rand and Tam on the road to Emonds field in chapter 1 would have, when he thinks he sees the fade, that is mystery thriller/ suspense - straight off, that peaks your interest, what vibe or setting would you build for that scene, music? then the gossip that happens between the boys?

The charm of a deceptively simple run of the mill life in a seemingly ordinary normal village that has no idea of what is to come - that is classic charm that could be powerful, no one does things like that any more and we haven't seen it done well for a while.. Stranger things is super successful because it does a classic thing very well that no one does any longer because snubs think it's cliched - whereas you have a whole generation that's never seen something like that because all the modern stuff is regurgitated standardised and now socio-political/religio-cultural manipulating ideologically driven grable..


It's sad

Every time I read something like this I remember just how fucking terrible of a hack PoS writer Rafe is to have bastardized a beloved story so horribly. I can only hope the few people I know still on board get either the massive improvements they want, or Rafe follows through on the shit stain that was episode 8 and firmly destroys the show so it can die.

[Rennadrel]

one day they will discover how the people they hire lay and manipulate social media buzz to pretend that their poor shows are more interesting and liked than they actually are.

What I suspect is happening is that to keep their jobs these guys are feeding their investors b/s reasons for the failure of the show or the poorer performances and then using social media and the access media that their fellow cohorts are in as evidence to support.

One day the investors are going to realise these guys have been b/sing them to keep their jobs and are actually making crap that really isn't that popular.

RJs the Wheel of Time was popular globally, and highly critically acclaimed, yet for some reason, the show runners felt they knew better and could alter his work for their own fantasies and think that thier "in the bubble" view of the world is what everyone would like.


As a result you got an excellent story turn out as mediocre run of the mill garbage with the same scenarios and set up like almost every show in the last 2-4 years has been. All the charm of the original work lost in the intersectional feminism, critical race theory activist conversions more interested in their own fanfic than that of the established author's.

The end result is a vastly inferior product and a far less interested global and national community - because frankly, they just don't relate tot he story in this changed format and don't like it enough.

Seriously, everything charming and unique or classic about the wheel of time, many of the good bits, are completely removed - and there is no justifiable or good reason for this.

Furthermore, the show looks cheap, the scenes often don't make sense - and none of this is what the author actually did - it literally ruins his work because it has the name of that work on it.

All you need to do is look at audience scores and see the screeching coming from access media because the audience hates whatever garbage they are trying to peddle while they praise it to the high heavens. What irks me more is that this trash is still being supported by the two people whose opinions on the show should matter the most, Harriet McDougal and Brandon Sanderson. If I were Brandon, I would have distanced myself from this tire fire after the freaking premier rather than try to shill it.

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I mean, the WoT books aren't even that great, it's not like they're masterpieces of literary writing or anything. They're solid - it's a decent story with good characters and detailed world-building. It falls apart a bit at the end and there's about 2 books too many in the lot, but it's a very serviceable, B+ kind of fantasy narrative.

Translating that to the screen shouldn't be super hard. You have tons to work with, everything is fleshed out in great detail, all you need to do is put it together in a cinematic way so people don't get lose in plot details or don't understand the connections. You give this to an industry veteran, they should be able to churn out totally fine TV scripts in no time.

How they could royally screw things up as they did is beyond me. It's almost an achievement in and of itself to miss the mark so completely when you have a playbook of many volumes ready at your service.

Ideology is what they care more about than telling a good story. They tread all over Rand's big moment at the end of season one for some female empowerment bullshit that never actually happened at that stage of the books (since only Moiraine can actually channel while the girls can barely touch the Source at this point). So they proverbially fucked up the most important moment in establishing the story. Odds are this crap does eventually get canned because there's no way something this terrible that retcons massive parts of the overall story makes it to the end. Which is a shame because people have been wanting this for a long time. Too bad Amazon Studios own policies and hiring practices put a bunch of talentless narcissistic retards in charge of it instead of someone who actually cares about presenting the story accurately.

And the dumb part is that the women in the series get plenty of time as the focal point. They get ample opportunities to prove themselves as they grow, it's a big part of why WoT has a good story is that characters grow and change, they discover who they are and their place in the world. Because ultimately that's what good storytelling is, victories and failures, strengths and weaknesses in characters that make them interesting.

[Orby]

I mean, the WoT books aren't even that great, it's not like they're masterpieces of literary writing or anything. They're solid - it's a decent story with good characters and detailed world-building. It falls apart a bit at the end and there's about 2 books too many in the lot, but it's a very serviceable, B+ kind of fantasy narrative.

Translating that to the screen shouldn't be super hard. You have tons to work with, everything is fleshed out in great detail, all you need to do is put it together in a cinematic way so people don't get lose in plot details or don't understand the connections. You give this to an industry veteran, they should be able to churn out totally fine TV scripts in no time.

How they could royally screw things up as they did is beyond me. It's almost an achievement in and of itself to miss the mark so completely when you have a playbook of many volumes ready at your service.

the books are not perfect. too much exposition and explaining for my liking, though it doesn't bother me too much, as Jordan's writing style seems easy to read into, without trying to make it sound drawn out or over complicated. Also he does tend to repeat words alot. the word 'seldom' gets way too much mention :P

But they are great fun inspirational slice of fantasy-adventure that I enjoy.

The TV show has made me come to appreciate the books more though lol

I wish Rafe could have adapted fantasy books no one liked to begin with like Terry Godokind, no one likes his work. They'd be nothing to complain about then lol :P

[TirielWoW]

Moiraine's speech about Manetherin

This and

The insular nature of the Two Rivers

This were absolutely included. Moraine's speech was included in its entirety. The insular nature of Two Rivers was shown repeatedly through minor dialogue with characters, and also with their general attitudes towards Moraine when she showed up.

[Shadowferal]

Moiraine' speech

“Is this what Aemon’s blood has come to?” The Aes Sedai’s voice was not loud, but it overwhelmed every other sound. “Little people squabbling for the right to hide like rabbits? You have forgotten who you were, forgotten what you were, but I had hoped some small part was left, some memory in blood and bone. Some shred to steel you for the long night coming.”

No one spoke. The two Coplins looked as if they never wanted to open their mouths again.

Bran said, “Forgotten who we were? We are who we always have been. Honest farmers and shepherds and craftsmen. Two Rivers folk.”

“To the south,” Moiraine said, “lies the river you call the White River, but far to the east of here men call it still by its rightful name. Manetherendrelle. In the Old Tongue, Waters of the Mountain Home. Sparkling waters that once coursed through a land of bravery and beauty. Two thousand years ago Manetherendrelle flowed by the walls of a mountain city so lovely to behold that Ogier stonemasons came to stare in wonder. Farms and villages covered this region, and that you call the Forest of Shadows, as well, and beyond. But all of those folk thought of themselves as the people of the Mountain Home, the people of Manetheren.

“Their King was Aemon al Caar al Thorin, Aemon son of Caar son of Thorin, and Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan was his Queen. Aemon, a man so fearless that the greatest compliment for courage any could give, even among his enemies, was to say a man had Aemon’s heart. Eldrene, so beautiful that it was said the flowers bloomed to make her smile. Bravery and beauty and wisdom and a love that death could not sunder. Weep, if you have a heart, for the loss of them, for the loss of even their memory. Weep, for the loss of their blood.”

She fell silent then, but no one spoke. Rand was as bound as the others in the spell she had created. When she spoke again, he drank it in, and so did the rest.

“For nearly two centuries the Trolloc Wars had ravaged the length and breadth of the world, and wherever battles raged, the Red Eagle banner of Manetheren was in the forefront. The men of Manetheren were a thorn to the Dark One’s foot and a bramble to his hand. Sing of Manetheren, that would never bend knee to the Shadow. Sing of Manetheren, the sword that could not be broken.

“They were far away, the men of Manetheren, on the Field of Bekkar, called the Field of Blood, when news came that a Trolloc army was moving against their home. Too far to do else but wait to hear of their land’s death, for the forces of the Dark One meant to make an end of them. Kill the mighty oak by hacking away its roots. Too far to do else but mourn. But they were the men of the Mountain Home.

“Without hesitation, without thought for the distance they must travel, they marched from the very field of victory, still covered in dust and sweat and blood. Day and night they marched, for they had seen the horror a Trolloc army left behind it, and no man of them could sleep while such a danger threatened Manetheren. They moved as if their feet had wings, marching further and faster than friends hoped or enemies feared they could. At any other day that march alone would have inspired songs. When the Dark One’s armies swooped down upon the lands of Manetheren, the men of the Mountain Home stood before it, with their backs to the Tarendrelle.”

Some villager raised a small cheer then, but Moiraine kept on as if she had not heard. “The host that faced the men of Manetheren was enough to daunt the bravest heart. Ravens blackened the sky; Trollocs blackened the land. Trollocs and their human allies. Trollocs and Darkfriends in tens of tens of thousands, and Dreadlords to command. At night their cook-fires outnumbered the stars, and dawn revealed the banner of Ba’alzamon at their head. Ba’alzamon, Heart of the Dark. An ancient name for the Father of Lies. The Dark One could not have been free of his prison at Shayol Ghul, for if he had been, not all the forces of humankind together could have stood against him, but there was power there. Dreadlords, and some evil that made that light-destroying banner seem no more than right and sent a chill into the souls of the men who faced it.

“Yet, they knew what they must do. Their homeland lay just across the river. They must keep that host, and the power with it, from the Mountain Home. Aemon had sent out messengers. Aid was promised if they could hold for but three days at the Tarendrelle. Hold for three days against odds that should overwhelm them in the first hour. Yet somehow, through bloody assault and desperate defense, they held through an hour, and the second hour, and the third. For three days they fought, and though the land became a butcher’s yard, no crossing of the Tarendrelle did they yield. By the third night no help had come, and no messengers, and they fought on alone. For six days. For nine. And on the tenth day Aemon knew the bitter taste of betrayal. No help was coming, and they could hold the river crossings no more.”

“What did they do?” Hari demanded. Torchfires flickered in the chill night breeze, but no one made a move to draw a cloak tighter.

“Aemon crossed the Tarendrelle,” Moiraine told them, “destroying the bridges behind him. And he sent word throughout his land for the people to flee, for he knew the powers with the Trolloc horde would find a way to bring it across the river. Even as the word went out, the Trolloc crossing began, and the soldiers of Manetheren took up the fight again, to buy with their lives what hours they could for their people to escape. From the city of Manetheren, Eldrene organized the flight of her people into the deepest forests and the fastness of the mountains.

“But some did not flee. First in a trickle, then a river, then a flood, men went, not to safety, but to join the army fighting for their land. Shepherds with bows, and farmers with pitchforks, and woodsmen with axes. Women went, too, shouldering what weapons they could find and marching side by side with their men. No one made that journey who did not know they would never return. But it was their land. It had been their fathers’, and it would be their children’s, and they went to pay the price of it. Not a step of ground was given up until it was soaked in blood, but at the last the army of Manetheren was driven back, back to here, to this place you now call Emond’s Field. And here the Trolloc hordes surrounded them.”

Her voice held the sound of cold tears. “Trolloc dead and the corpses of human renegades piled up in mounds, but always more scrambled over those charnel heaps in waves of death that had no end. There could be but one finish. No man or woman who had stood beneath the banner of the Red Eagle at that day’s dawning still lived when night fell. The sword that could not be broken was shattered.

“In the Mountains of Mist, alone in the emptied city of Manetheren, Eldrene felt Aemon die, and her heart died with him. And where her heart had been was left only a thirst for vengeance, vengeance for her love, vengeance for her people and her land. Driven by grief she reached out to the True Source, and hurled the One Power at the Trolloc army. And there the Dreadlords died wherever they stood, whether in their secret councils or exhorting their soldiers. In the passing of a breath the Dreadlords and the generals of the Dark One’s host burst into flame. Fire consumed their bodies, and terror consumed their just-victorious army.

“Now they ran like beasts before a wildfire in the forest, with no thought for anything but escape. North and south they fled. Thousands drowned attempting to cross the Tarendrelle without the aid of the Dreadlords, and at the Manetherendrelle they tore down the bridges in their fright at what might be following them. Where they found people, they slew and burned, but to flee was the need that gripped them. Until, at last, no one of them remained in the lands of Manetheren. They were dispersed like dust before the whirlwind. The final vengeance came more slowly, but it came, when they were hunted down by other peoples, by other armies in other lands. None was left alive of those who did murder at Aemon’s Field.

“But the price was high for Manetheren. Eldrene had drawn to herself more of the One Power than any human could ever hope to wield unaided. As the enemy generals died, so did she die, and the fires that consumed her consumed the empty city of Manetheren, even the stones of it, down to the living rock of the mountains. Yet the people had been saved.

“Nothing was left of their farms, their villages, or their great city. Some would say there was nothing left for them, nothing but to flee to other lands, where they could begin anew. They did not say so. They had paid such a price in blood and hope for their land as had never been paid before, and now they were bound to that soil by ties stronger than steel. Other wars would wrack them in years to come, until at last their corner of the world was forgotten and at last they had forgotten wars and the ways of war. Never again did Manetheren rise. Its soaring spires and splashing fountains became as a dream that slowly faded from the minds of its people. But they, and their children, and their children’s children, held the land that was theirs. They held it when the long centuries had washed the why of it from their memories. They held it until, today, there is you. Weep for Manetheren. Weep for what is lost forever.”

[Lorgar Aurelian]

one day they will discover how the people they hire lay and manipulate social media buzz to pretend that their poor shows are more interesting and liked than they actually are.

What I suspect is happening is that to keep their jobs these guys are feeding their investors b/s reasons for the failure of the show or the poorer performances and then using social media and the access media that their fellow cohorts are in as evidence to support.

Some of y’all need a reality check, the people who are green lighting theses shows aren’t going to the show runners and having them tell them the show isn’t actually
Failing because of X/Y/Z they are looking at the viewer metrics and other in-house data that point to the show making money as it’s all they care about.

It might be hard to believe but rather you like the show or not it was successful and profitable enough to keep it going.

[Mace]

The TV show has made me come to appreciate the books more though lol

yeh, this, I certainly appreciated the book more after watching it. Went back and audio listened to the whole thing, and i was surprised how good it is.


it's loong, but it's epic, character depth and growth is the bst in fantasy to date. Best magic system too, and the scope is certainly epic , right up there with the greats.

It also ended very strongly and well, which is so hard for such big sagas - look at what happened to Game of Thrones

but it's best feature was it's likeability and fantasy - it is a classic hero story, but with such charm, and the humour mixed with seriousness.. the danger feels real, the humour has you cracking up, it makes so much sense relatability wise, whether male or female, I know this man and his wife wrote it together, no way one person could have such insight to people of both genders.

It feels good all round without being boring and placid, there is danger but their is also courage.


It may seem average, but it does so much well. It isn't without its flaws either, but it's one of the best out there, and all they needed to do was replicate it and capture it's charm, and complexity.

But they weren't interested in that.

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Every time I read something like this I remember just how fucking terrible of a hack PoS writer Rafe is to have bastardized a beloved story so horribly. I can only hope the few people I know still on board get either the massive improvements they want, or Rafe follows through on the shit stain that was episode 8 and firmly destroys the show so it can die.

I also feel a bit sad about this, and wonder if it was just the wrong time for this, if they had done the actual story in 2016-19, as it was in the book, i think it would have been Stranger things/Game of Thrones level of popularity, which would have ensured it continued according to the book for future seasons through covid and all the nonsense that is going on atm..

or maybe if it had just waited a little while longer for this nonsense to pass, serious show runners who realised it's value , diversity and wokeness without needing to add or convert it to their own extreme views and narrow world view, would have also produced a better show.

It was unfortunate they did it in this time period.

[Xath]

In their defense I don't think the wheel of time could ever be made into a media that isn't a book or a audio book... maybe a play?

The issue is so much of the story the majority if in remembering correctly is inner dialogues and you can't translate that to television.

Animation is how you do it either anime style or Western. You need a good 20+ episodes per book and you have 10+ seasons so the actors would age too much if not just voices since wot takes place over only a few years. Can also do inner monologue in that style.

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It's just a matter of perspective. As a series "based upon the books" Wheel of Time is absolutely OK, entertaining and rightfully renewed for season 3 this early. If you want "100% faithful translation of all source material" you're right.

It's not even close to the books major plot points are given to other characters or straight up dropped. The characterizations are appalling in short it's trash and that s3 renewal will likely be quietly dropped.

- - - Updated - - -

This and



This were absolutely included. Moraine's speech was included in its entirety. The insular nature of Two Rivers was shown repeatedly through minor dialogue with characters, and also with their general attitudes towards Moraine when she showed up.

Yeah the insular nature of Two Rivers was definitely shown by having every culture in the world there :P

[Tentim]

Animation is how you do it either anime style or Western. You need a good 20+ episodes per book and you have 10+ seasons so the actors would age too much if not just voices since wot takes place over only a few years. Can also do inner monologue in that style.

- - - Updated - - -



It's not even close to the books major plot points are given to other characters or straight up dropped. The characterizations are appalling in short it's trash and that s3 renewal will likely be quietly dropped.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah the insular nature of Two Rivers was definitely shown by having every culture in the world there :P

I think your just supposed to ignore actors these days and only see the character. It works somewhat though there are jarring examples where it falls apart.

[bledgor]

I think your just supposed to ignore actors these days and only see the character. It works somewhat though there are jarring examples where it falls apart.

Like how Rand and Aviendha are supposed to look like possibly being related? Certainly won't feel that way when you watch the show...

Why does Hollywood hate gingers so much?

[Biomega]

Why does Hollywood hate gingers so much?

Or more accurately: why do they think WE hate gingers so much?

Which at least in my case couldn't be further from the truth.

[bledgor]

Or more accurately: why do they think WE hate gingers so much?

Which at least in my case couldn't be further from the truth.

Considering so many gingers have been replaced or changed lately (Mary Jane, the little mermaid, Aviendha in just the past what 3 or 4 years I thought of in under a minute), 100% not me that has the issues with gingers, it is them. I feel the same way about gingers as anyone else. Don't defend them, they have trillions of dollars they can do it themselves.

[Biomega]

100% not me that has the issues with gingers, it is them.

My point is, they must be doing this for a reason, and not just some "we hate gingers" conspiracy. I.e., they most likely must be thinking that gingers in media cause problems with audiences in some way and for some reason.

[bledgor]

My point is, they must be doing this for a reason, and not just some "we hate gingers" conspiracy. I.e., they most likely must be thinking that gingers in media cause problems with audiences in some way and for some reason.

Or they view gingers as lowest on the totem pole and when they want to fill quotas they just replace them.

[Noxina]

Glad they got green light for season 3. Enjoyed S1 even how much they disregarded the books. It's fun with a new interpretation of the series, and I still have the original books to return to if I want to enjoy the series in its original form again.

Really curious about how they will go forth from the end of Season 1.



And the fact stands; its succesful, it got views, if not they wouldn't have green lighted season 3 BEFORE season 2 release. Fans are having the tits in a twist over the changes, but it does seem like the majority enjoys it. Which is great, and hopefully it will lead a lot of new fans to the books, so they can get to read/listen to the original works and be blown away and sucked into the fantasy genre as many of us has been.