KSM is too easy.

[Jester Joe]

They clearly said "without linking character to io or getting friends to help".

The key is to create your own group, not try to get into groups with no io. The group fills up in ~10 minutes, pretty much every time. Even as a non-meta dps class. Some of us just create our own groups instead of bitching in online forums about not getting invited.

Did I not make myself clear enough?

First off, even in your ideal world where every group takes only roughly 10 minutes to make, that doesn't mean every single dungeon you're getting a piece of gear anyway.

You are going to be spending hours upon hours grinding them out just to get upgrades that will trickle in outside of the vault, which is a weekly event.

Again, this whole weird mindset only seems to show up on forums, where people think that +15s are "easy" and "faceroll" whereas in the actual game, a vast majority of players struggle with them.

[Cosmic Janitor]

so much for „play the type of content you have most fun with“ …

what i really love at mmoc (love… well, yes, it’s sarcasm), is the fact that half the ppls talking about stuff like „play what you like“, „play the game for fun“, or „play the content you like most“ blah blah. and five minutes later a bunch of ppl show up (hopefully not the same as above, cause this would make it totally stupid) to jump on the „same itemlevel in mythic raid is unfair, cause of 20 ppls management“ bandwagon.

seriously, that crowd slowly becomes hillarious af …

What are you talking about? This has been an issue in (M)MOs since ultima online. You have the crowd that wants to play games to be entertained on one side and you have the crowd that wants to derive their feeling of self-worth from achieving meaningless things in a virtual world that can't stand if others have the same as them. MMOC is hardly the only place where sucha diivide exists.

[fearcazic]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Raiding is easy too. My guild has 8 mythic raiding teams. The only hard part is getting everyone online. Mythic+ is for pugs and just play for fun. I got KSM with 254 ilvl and now ar 278 I can pretty much time 15s with 230 healers.

Probably the same for raids because my guild does carry runs for low ilvl alts.

[neescher]

Did I not make myself clear enough?

First off, even in your ideal world where every group takes only roughly 10 minutes to make, that doesn't mean every single dungeon you're getting a piece of gear anyway.

You are going to be spending hours upon hours grinding them out just to get upgrades that will trickle in outside of the vault, which is a weekly event.

You did make yourself clear. It's just not the truth. Apparently you have never tried? Because my last 3 alts I had no problem getting up to ~255-260 ilvl after a week or two, and since then they're just trickling in a 278 every week. It's not "my ideal world" in which it takes 10 minutes. Try to make a group "+2 bonus valor" on a fresh alt and you'll see how fast you find a tank and healer, especially after cross-faction groups.

It's not as much grinding as you think, you get 262s from +14s, and this late in the season, chances are other people can trade gear.

Again, this whole weird mindset only seems to show up on forums, where people think that +15s are "easy" and "faceroll" whereas in the actual game, a vast majority of players struggle with them.

Apparently I did not make myself clear enough. I clearly said that it's easy to do 15s if you have the experience. I didn't say it's easy for everyone. I know enough people who struggle, but it's the same people that don't really try hard enough to improve or try to find out what goes wrong.

I know there are people who can't do their normal rotation while listening to what DBM tells them to do. That doesn't make it hard per se. There are people who have 260 ilvl gear and do 4k overall dps in m+ dungeons. If they can't time a +15, does that mean it's too hard? KSM is still something you're supposed to earn, not something that's handed out for free.

[Jester Joe]

You did make yourself clear. It's just not the truth. Apparently you have never tried? Because my last 3 alts I had no problem getting up to ~255-260 ilvl after a week or two, and since then they're just trickling in a 278 every week. It's not "my ideal world" in which it takes 10 minutes. Try to make a group "+2 bonus valor" on a fresh alt and you'll see how fast you find a tank and healer, especially after cross-faction groups.

It's not as much grinding as you think, you get 262s from +14s, and this late in the season, chances are other people can trade gear.

You say this without acknowledging though each run, including prep time and travel, is roughly a little under an hour.

Like I said, hours of grinding though. Saying "it only took a week or two!" doesn't change how much time you have to spend playing to actually accomplish it. It's not like you're hopping on for a casual 30 minute session every other night.

That's not taking into account failed runs as you climb higher either, unless you're going to deny that happens.

Apparently I did not make myself clear enough. I clearly said that it's easy to do 15s if you have the experience. I didn't say it's easy for everyone. I know enough people who struggle, but it's the same people that don't really try hard enough to improve or try to find out what goes wrong.

I know there are people who can't do their normal rotation while listening to what DBM tells them to do. That doesn't make it hard per se. There are people who have 260 ilvl gear and do 4k overall dps in m+ dungeons. If they can't time a +15, does that mean it's too hard? KSM is still something you're supposed to earn, not something that's handed out for free.

Well it's a bit weird to come into a discussion where someone is calling it "easy" to argue then when someone points out that it isn't.

And it's not about just experience, it's about skill too. If it's something the average player would struggle with, then naturally it should be considered hard.

[Drusin]

Blizzard frowns upon that nowadays, hence their changes to group finder and advertising.

And the point is just that one point of view isn't the only situation in that regard

Not a big enough frown since it isn't against the rules.

I meant in terms of gold they acquire in-game, not real life wealth. If we're talking real life not everyone wants to pay money for in-game stuff, not everyone cares about AOTC, and not everyone wants to be carried in the first place. I don't have the numbers but in previous expansions it sat around 30% of the playerbase who had it. I doubt it's that much higher in Shadowlands. Majority don't do it and neither do they have KSM which is a far more expensive carry.

Forums and reddit distort people's perception of the playerbase as this group of ultra-invested people who always push for more rewards and higher achievements. Most players are far more casual in their approach and only ever touch raids in LFR and even then not always.

If they don't care then that's fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Velerios]

Blizzard has done the exact opposite of listening to raiders outside of crazy people like thd. Raiders loved raid logging it was freaking great what has blizz done instead cut qol like flying hard then implemented endless progress systems so you feel like if you aren't spending all your free time on wow you are letting your team down. It flat out sucks, there doesn't need to be infinite content they used to get this all the way until legion they got it. However with their seasonal reset bs and 4 difficulties the gear scaling has spiraled completely out of control. If blizz was listening to raiders we would be going back to mop and dropping all infinite grinds.

Oh sorry, you seem to be misunderstanding what i meaned with raider: for blizzard raiders are the people who are on twitch, youtube live and other media trying hard to make wow an e-sport-title. This is the target audience for them. Since e-sport has money on the table, making wow a title out of it is important for the shareholders: it does not matter if it does not work, there is MONEY ON THE TABLE!!! That they ruin their own game out of it isn't important, as long as you mention following:

Web 4.0
E-Sport soon as important as normal sport (all that monaaaihhh)
Mobile market
METAVERSE

So things that we normal users would only facepalm of it (no, the metaverse will never be reality, as long as half of people get sick from VR), Shareholders love their buzzwords, and as long as they get their carrot on the stick seeing how well wow does with raiding on twitch and improvements to one of their buzzwords, they would also accept short losses.

Just watch CNBC: Some tech-news without someone mentioning metaverse would be nowadays a total novelty.

[rrayy]

This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone is special, no one is.

THat is not a problem. What is a problem is players who have a need to feel special solely so they can lord your superiority over others.

[ellieg]

I understand the point of this post but raid rewards ARE better.

In raid you get:
Abt 6 pieces of 285 ilvl gear. Thats impossible to get from M+
Usually at least 1 trinket is BiS
Usually a weapon or jewelry with a special effect that's BiS

And most importantly, gear faster. M+ is capped at 1 potential 278 a week. Mythic raid gets 1 potential 278/285 from vault, and 20% chance per boss. Not to mention, you stay with a set group and eventually can trade with others to get everyone fully geared.

[Xath]

Some weird argument there.
Whether the game is single player or not isn't exactly what's being discussed. It's about the challenge.
Do you think people don't play Souls games or something or they only do to show off to exactly... What, the no one else to see that they killed a boss?

On top of that, wow is obviously built around playing with friends. That doesn't suddenly mean that it MUST be to epeen flex.

Lastly, you're not actually giving any reasoning for me to believe you, you're just asking questions wanting me to prove your point for you.

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With hours of grinding or a group carrying you, because you're certainly not easily getting into pugs with no gear and no score.

For some reason people love this argument though

Yeah running my own key up crazy I know

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I love how you magically changed from 10s to 15s. So cute.

Again if the difficulty is ever so low enough you can ignore the mechanics its the same as them not existing at all. I have no clue how you're trying to argue otherwise.

I didn't magically change anything any raider does at least a 20 key on the final week of a season so their keys start at 15. The final mechanic is added at 10 but 15s are what we do at the start of a season.

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Oh sorry, you seem to be misunderstanding what i meaned with raider: for blizzard raiders are the people who are on twitch, youtube live and other media trying hard to make wow an e-sport-title. This is the target audience for them. Since e-sport has money on the table, making wow a title out of it is important for the shareholders: it does not matter if it does not work, there is MONEY ON THE TABLE!!! That they ruin their own game out of it isn't important, as long as you mention following:

Web 4.0
E-Sport soon as important as normal sport (all that monaaaihhh)
Mobile market
METAVERSE

So things that we normal users would only facepalm of it (no, the metaverse will never be reality, as long as half of people get sick from VR), Shareholders love their buzzwords, and as long as they get their carrot on the stick seeing how well wow does with raiding on twitch and improvements to one of their buzzwords, they would also accept short losses.

Just watch CNBC: Some tech-news without someone mentioning metaverse would be nowadays a total novelty.

Again outside the odd exception like thd most raiders even at the high end do not enjoy never being done with the game.

[Alvito]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

While I agree people should focus on their own motivations. If a task is worth the reward and you do the task, you should be happy. The problem with the gear now is the same gear us being handed out through two very uneven tasks. With parts of the game being competition based things should be even and balanced. Zerith Mortis allowing people to swap over gear they would never have access to is frustrating for those that actually do the content and watch their teams die off as people realize they can skip the hardship.

[Jester Joe]

Yeah running my own key up crazy I know

"Running my own key" isn't some magical end all rebuttal to the several issues already pointed out.

Like the fact that even if you time every key, always find a group under 10 minutes, you're still going to be left at the mercy of RNG on gear drops and will still spend hours trying to chase gear that might never even drop.

I've lost track of how many times I was trying to get the stupid trinket for tanking from DOS, so let's not suddenly pretend that grinding M+s is some magical loot pinata.

Unless, like I said, you have a group carrying you to gear you up. Otherwise you're going to be spend hours upon hours chasing gear.

[epigramx]

I think yes! (this does not include mounts, since they are really something prestige) Nowadays i would give a fuck if someone else has worse gear then me and i can feel superior over them.

I think that blizzard should CARE LESS about the butterflies AND MORE towards players in general! Having no progression in gear for what you are doing is bad for the game, and yes, i include LFR with it too. Blizzard listened more and more about the raiders, and we see what happened to wow: less and less subs. Instead they should give people a way to progress even if they don't raid or do mythic+.

As i said before: when someone only wants to do outdoor-content, give him gear that allows him do do it faster and make progress; not ONLY outdoor naturally, since the bonus should partly be a bonus in general; just slower than what raiders do and no, this should never be stronger than heroic raiding gear or equivalent to mythic+; at least the plain gear without the damage bonus that would only work in things they do: outdoor-content, and LFG/LFR. The same should be true for mythic+ and raiding. When you do it, you get gear that let you progress into it.

Some weird argument there.
Whether the game is single player or not isn't exactly what's being discussed. It's about the challenge.
Do you think people don't play Souls games or something or they only do to show off to exactly... What, the no one else to see that they killed a boss?

On top of that, wow is obviously built around playing with friends. That doesn't suddenly mean that it MUST be to epeen flex.

Lastly, you're not actually giving any reasoning for me to believe you, you're just asking questions wanting me to prove your point for you.

My point wasn't that nobody would play it by the way, mainly that a massively played game like this would have nowhere near the success it had if it was single player and/or there were no collectibles or achievements or trophies of any kind to show off.

Source: people are generally selfish and like to show off; that's very obvious when it goes to young and naive players of the vanilla erra but also adults keep it inside them; selfishness isn't necessarily "evil" btw either because it makes people strive.

[8bithamster]

No but I do feel this way when someone on welfare has a better car than me, it just proves how broken the system is when hardworking tax paying people like raiders.... get shit on by the system and lazy sacks of shit who just leech off society and expect free hand outs benefit from it the most.

Maybe the person on welfare is better with money and doesn't spend it the moment they get it?
Yea.. Another elitist bad take.

[Lady Atia]

While I agree that you probably 'shouldn’t' care too much what gear other people have; I also do think that top gear from M+ should be from +20. For a lot of raiders that aren’t top level, if you want to get the best gear from the vault, doing a +15 is basically necessary due to how much easier it is. EDIT - I actually like Paxen's solution more than mine, a few posts down.

Personally, it doesn’t bother me either way - but I do think the rewards are lopsided. Maybe you think it doesn’t matter, but quite frankly that’s not for anyone to decide if others should care. I think it's pretty objective that one path leads to end-game gear with much less hassle and difficulty than the other, so it's not hard to imagine that people are going to be annoyed at feeling like they need to take that path, even if they're only in it for the raid.

Frankly though, to say that you shouldn't care when others get for free what you worked for... I don't really agree with that. If glad mounts or rank 1 titles started going on to the store I'd be very peeved (even if a lot of people can and will get boosted to the former).

And if you would change that raiders just would have to do their +20's each week. The only difference is that less people will be able to do it, or more people will buy boosts early on. The current system is fine, and I'm a CE raider. Next season will be even better as we should be able to grind valor and upgrade the gear from the get go.

(also if people complain that +15 gives better gear than heroic raids ... well, maybe that's because heroic raids are just supposed to be a stepstone into mythic?)

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(oh, and no serious raider raids for gear .... gear is a meaning to an end to kill a boss. Kills, transmog and mounts have more value than gear that you toss out every 5-6 months haha)

[Th3Scourge]

KSM, at this point of the expansion, is exactly the difficulty it needs to be obtained. I wouldn't say it's particularly easy, nor would I say it's particularly difficult. The very best gear comes from the last 3 mythic/2100+ pvp anyway

At launch, if you were trying to pug KSM on an off-meta spec or class, then it was fucked. I remember trying on my warlock to get the last few keys I needed when guildies weren't around. Hours-long sessions of being declined to every group I signed up for

[Lathspell]

(oh, and no serious raider raids for gear .... gear is a meaning to an end to kill a boss. Kills, transmog and mounts have more value than gear that you toss out every 5-6 months haha)

This is interesting because every time someone suggests removing gear from mythic and having it be ilvl normalized people freak out that it would kill raiding.

[czarek]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Like big L O L dude. Its like just ur view point. It make no sense. M+ is contest at it self. Isnt that mean its easy or easyer than M raiding (ok maybe its is a little bit but im not sure). I did KSM with my friends in season1. We pushed hard learn and repeat. It was fun and hard at the same time. All depends on how u progress. If your toughts are OK U CAN RUN ALL M+ WITH BIGDICKERS IS EASY AF BOOOO. Ok its easy if u catch up boost or grind team. Same on raids. Guilds progress with same ppl mostly all over again and prob thats the hard part. Guild didnt take boost or rotate ppl all over again to make perfect circle. Same if u progress m+ with same ppl. Cheers. And one more thing whats wrong with beeing a casual? I should be thrilled that im not livin in this game so I cant reach max gear ? That is silly. Casual does not mean damn bad/noob player...

[Lady Atia]

This is interesting because every time someone suggests removing gear from mythic and having it be ilvl normalized people freak out that it would kill raiding.

Because people still think that you can overgear a raid. This wasn't really true for Sepulcher btw, as the encounters were tuned for having split run gear + 4p + 2nd legendary since the world first guilds already had all that stuff when they were fighting Mythic Jailer. Our dmg didn't really grew during this tier, compared to past "borrowed power" spikes or stuff like the Sanctum Shards. This proofs that *if* they would remove gear (power) from mythic raids nothing would change as they just balance it for the gear you can get anyways, or atleast that's what they did this time (which failed horribly imo).

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(Also of course this is from a Mythic perspective. You can overgear normal/heroic of course but again, I only consider these as steping stones into Mythic. Like, it's fine if you enjoy them and see them as "your endgame", but the game should be designed around the idea that every raider should raid Mythic in the end, imo. Similiar to M+ where the general idea is that every M+ player should be able to get KSM if they try to - again, just my opinion.)

Edit: Or in other words, both Mythic raiding and KSM should be accessible for everyone who aspires to it. Stop gatekeeping content, you won't feel worse if more people can play with your toys.

[VinceVega]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Agree (kinda) with the point that mythic raid gear should only come from mythic raiding. Mythic+ is way easier than mythic raiding.

But i also think mythic raiding is to difficult to begin with. It should not be on heroic level but maybe between current mythic and heroic would be enough.

Gear without reason makes the whole game worse for everybody. You get stuff just cause. Nothing done for it. Likle the epics from WQs or the weekly loot box lottery that is the weekly chest.
There should be a (way slower) way to get gear on mythic raid level. So one way or another you can get bis. You probably won't either way but you can theoretically.

As compensation mythic gets a special transmog. Like actually special not just a lazy effect slapped onto it.
You SHOULD get something if you finsih difficult content in games. Nothing... is shitty. An no that one mount at the end doesn't really count in a game with over 500 mounts...