Retribution Paladin 9.2 situation

[Roxi111]

I was wondering if there is any tuning or changes in the set, Ret will received.
With many class being looked again, Ret looks like being neglected by the developer team, as there is no consideration or discuss about it.

- First of all the community perception is an issue and such neglection and not providing Ret with any new utility or damage recognition would worsen that.

- The 2-Set originally considered 2 sec of Seraphim, I wonder if that was a typing mistake, as these 1 - 2 seconds is beyond comprehension to perform any button or dps , fake buffing it to 3 sec, when you can have only 1 spell on that window, is not fixing anything, and tracking these short life time is not worth it
Optimally I see 4 seconds is what we can feel it to perform as a normal class (keeping the uptime from this 4 sec is what we need to work with)

- The 4 Set of proccing WA instead of BJ, is the least creative effort made in my opinion on Ret set, I have reviewed the previous sets, where it was about judgment/ holy power etc, it was a flat/ramp increase of damage that can bring the pally up, unlike a proc that has 2% out of 50% change to proc.
This set bring paladin to the bottom of the list.

Its very surprising the work that has been done on this class on this expansion. We have seen a huge love on pvp , that stripped every joy after till the end of the expansion.

How do we reach to a conclusion that this class can be playable this patch?
With a perception and community understanding of how weak is the set, Ret population will drop to the minimum number a class can have, as there is no raid/ Mythic+ will have a room to accept this lil pink making to gear the character is very hard and confirm the Un-playable situation.

I'm aware there is another classes to try and I'm sure most of the Ret has moved on, as this situation has no come back , if no changes will be done.

[Thes]

A set doesn't make a class or spec...

[Roxi111]

Agreed, the Ret spec was not the first choice or even the second/third choice on M+/ Raid.
With a good set , this perception can be lessen and it would be a situation where brining this class is Ok.
However with the current status, this statement wont be valid.

Also there should be no expectation on changing the whole spec by the last patch of the expansion.

[Roxi111]

(2) Set Bonus: When you benefit from Art of War, you gain Seraphim for 4 sec, up from 3 sec
Divine Storm damage increased by 10%.
This change does not apply to PvP combat.
Wake of Ashes damage increased by 10%.
This change does not apply to PvP combat.

It took a month for Blizzard to admit that Paladin needs a change.
To be honest with how Locks/ hunter/ dks are strong on their set, this buff will not bring Ret to anywhere closer to them, it will pick the paladin from D-tier to C+/B- tier.
Seraphim need a 5 sec , and pala damaged need at least 3% increase damage, just to make it competitive enough with B+/A tier.

[roboscorcher]

Honestly, the problem with Ret is Holy Power, the most boring resource in the game.

I really hope that Blizz take a risk and drop HoPo to bring seals back. This may seem strange but I do believe the seal system has a lot of potential if they made a few change, like adding seal twisting and adding aoe + cleave seals. I think each spec could have some unique seals, and seals could proc off heals as well as autos.

But yeah, holy power is just so boring. You could say that the spender options are interesting, but are they really? Also, that means that builder spells are crap.

[Gloriandus]

I kind of like the idea of Holy Power staying, but that EVERYTHING you do builds it. Damage spells, offheals, Sac-ing and BoP-ing people, etc, all build. Would make the build more kinetic (and would take some getting used to) and encourage the use of your full toolkit.

[Demsi]

I kind of like the idea of Holy Power staying, but that EVERYTHING you do builds it. Damage spells, offheals, Sac-ing and BoP-ing people, etc, all build. Would make the build more kinetic (and would take some getting used to) and encourage the use of your full toolkit.

I think that would result in some pretty degenerate gameplay and not the fun kind

[Roxi111]

I would stay with the HoPo, Seal idea was good in paper, but no where to play it, it made Ret worse.
Ret was getting worse and worse every patch this Expansion, till it reached to the pinnacle on 9.2
I dont see any coming back from this , unless a major Class redesign , but that wont happened mid/end expansion.

To confirm this changes on Paladin this week, has done nothing to improve.
its proven that Ret is and will stay D tier class for All Shadow land Content !

[talmir]

Just throwing in my two cents.

I returned to the game a month and a half ago as a ret paladin. I started out just doing casual stuff like questing to get zerith mortis up and running and about three weeks ago I went into mythic+'s in an attempt to get the mount. Managed to get myself from around 300 mythic rating up to 2377 currently (Hoping to finish it off before season 4). In the past three weeks I've learned a couple of things:

A) Its damn near impossible to get into +15 pugs as ret. You get auto-declined, so I've been gathering stuff to tank this final week.
B) I have consistently been doing top damage in both my pugs, guild runs and with a community. I have the ability to heal myself, interrupt and with the help of my divine steed thing I am pretty fast.

I have little to no experience with other classes (Been playing my pally since vanilla) but I have no clue why we get auto-declined :P I dont feel underpowered at all. Stigma with melee dps classes or something like that?

[shise]

Honestly, the problem with Ret is Holy Power, the most boring resource in the game.

I really hope that Blizz take a risk and drop HoPo to bring seals back. This may seem strange but I do believe the seal system has a lot of potential if they made a few change, like adding seal twisting and adding aoe + cleave seals. I think each spec could have some unique seals, and seals could proc off heals as well as autos.

But yeah, holy power is just so boring. You could say that the spender options are interesting, but are they really? Also, that means that builder spells are crap.

Tons of rets in BC classic atm.

Literally all love it. It feels like an actual paladin and it´s fun, engaging.

They could bring them back and maybe work on them a bit (with 16 years of experience on paladins..)

[roboscorcher]

Just throwing in my two cents.

I returned to the game a month and a half ago as a ret paladin. I started out just doing casual stuff like questing to get zerith mortis up and running and about three weeks ago I went into mythic+'s in an attempt to get the mount. Managed to get myself from around 300 mythic rating up to 2377 currently (Hoping to finish it off before season 4). In the past three weeks I've learned a couple of things:

A) Its damn near impossible to get into +15 pugs as ret. You get auto-declined, so I've been gathering stuff to tank this final week.
B) I have consistently been doing top damage in both my pugs, guild runs and with a community. I have the ability to heal myself, interrupt and with the help of my divine steed thing I am pretty fast.

I have little to no experience with other classes (Been playing my pally since vanilla) but I have no clue why we get auto-declined :P I dont feel underpowered at all. Stigma with melee dps classes or something like that?

I quit SL in the first patch, and part of it was a distaste for M+. If I had to guess, groups decline rets for being a melee with bad defensives.

[Varaben]

Honestly, the problem with Ret is Holy Power, the most boring resource in the game.

I really hope that Blizz take a risk and drop HoPo to bring seals back. This may seem strange but I do believe the seal system has a lot of potential if they made a few change, like adding seal twisting and adding aoe + cleave seals. I think each spec could have some unique seals, and seals could proc off heals as well as autos.

But yeah, holy power is just so boring. You could say that the spender options are interesting, but are they really? Also, that means that builder spells are crap.

I actually kind of like managing holy power. It’s way better now with 5 and spending 3 vs just having 3 which is how it was a while back. You have to really manage is properly since you have a few +1s then a +2 that procs sometimes. I think it’s more subtle than it seems to get it right. It is at its core a builder spender like rage or energy/cp, but I’m actually happy with it I’m SL.

[roboscorcher]

I actually kind of like managing holy power. It’s way better now with 5 and spending 3 vs just having 3 which is how it was a while back. You have to really manage is properly since you have a few +1s then a +2 that procs sometimes. I think it’s more subtle than it seems to get it right. It is at its core a builder spender like rage or energy/cp, but I’m actually happy with it I’m SL.

I'll give HoPo another chance in DF, but I hope the next expansion really embraces twisting and swingtimers, similar to the evoker's charging mechanics. TBC Ret is much simpler than Retail, but it's got a flow to it that I don't feel with the builder/spender system. Honestly, if TBC Ret had Divine Storm, a cleave seal, and didn't need Windfury Totem, it would be perfect.

The DF talents looks optimal for what Retail Ret is currently at. Lots of options. But I still think that the core flow of the rotation is inferior to timing-based twisting.

Edit: also, the DF talents do boost a lot of core abilities, but only like 2-3 talents per ability. You can't do a super-Judgement build or super CS build, unless I'm missing some synergy talents.

[Soikona]

Just throwing in my two cents.

I returned to the game a month and a half ago as a ret paladin. I started out just doing casual stuff like questing to get zerith mortis up and running and about three weeks ago I went into mythic+'s in an attempt to get the mount. Managed to get myself from around 300 mythic rating up to 2377 currently (Hoping to finish it off before season 4). In the past three weeks I've learned a couple of things:

A) Its damn near impossible to get into +15 pugs as ret. You get auto-declined, so I've been gathering stuff to tank this final week.
B) I have consistently been doing top damage in both my pugs, guild runs and with a community. I have the ability to heal myself, interrupt and with the help of my divine steed thing I am pretty fast.

I have little to no experience with other classes (Been playing my pally since vanilla) but I have no clue why we get auto-declined :P I dont feel underpowered at all. Stigma with melee dps classes or something like that?

Literally what ret can do, others can do + something else, or just do it better. Immunities, mages + TW. LoH, holy + aura mastery + an actual dev that’s not an absorb. Damage, ret is roughly middle, but there are better melee and with better survivability.

I used to main ret, I got to about 23 keys last season and I switched to shaman about half way. Ret isn’t bad, it’s just not good and with the amount of DPS that signup for keys, why take “ok” when you can take good?

[Gasparde]

Because the law of averages exist.
On average a group with a SV Hunter over a Ret Pally will perform better.
On average a group with a Destro Lock over a Ret Pally will perform better.
On average a group with both a SV Hunter and a Destro Lock will perform best, leaving 1 flex DPS spot - which is usually taken by the Shadow Priest, Feral Druid or Enhancer Shaman putting his own key up in the first place. And if that doesn't just so happen to be the case... there's still like 15 other specs that, on average, perform better than Rets.

And since pugging is all about averages and minimizing the chances of ruining your key, of course, no one wants to take one of the 20 Rets when there's also 3 Locks / Hunters / Monks queuing. That's just how it is. It's actually so bad that people would much rather take like 260 fotm classes than 270 non-fotm classes.

And yes, in reality, that's not how it usually works out. I'm frequently playing Ret myself and I constantly find myself outperforming SVs and Destros despite actually even being behind on ilvls. But that doesn't matter because pugs can't evaluate your skill level in advance. Which means that everyone applying is an idiot and that you take the idiot who, again, on average, will deal the most damage while constantly fucking up.

That's how it is. Numbers like m+ score or ilvl mean very little. Like, you can get carried to 3k m+ score super easily, so you really can't deduce skill from that. Getting to 275 is also just about waiting long enough to get all the free gear, so that's also nothing. The only thing you can look at is the average performance of your class color. And that is all that matters - which sadly means that Ret gets fucked just about fucking all the time.

[talmir]

Allright, understood.

I probably wont be changing out of ret any time soon though. Too used to my spec atm. I used to be a holy paladin for a loooong time. They kept changing it so much you had to re-learn it over and over again (It was best at early wotlk imo). But Ret has mostly stayed sameish. Perhaps I need to get my prot spec up if I want to pug more. Oh well. Here I go, ret-ing again

[Kalisandra]

Allright, understood.

I probably wont be changing out of ret any time soon though. Too used to my spec atm. I used to be a holy paladin for a loooong time. They kept changing it so much you had to re-learn it over and over again (It was best at early wotlk imo). But Ret has mostly stayed sameish. Perhaps I need to get my prot spec up if I want to pug more. Oh well. Here I go, ret-ing again

I liked early WotLK Holy sooo much. Then they nerfed it and made sure that really well itemised gear didn't really exist (well, it did but it was mail so you had to murder the Resto Shammie to get it). Then in Cata they just killed it.

[talmir]

I liked early WotLK Holy sooo much. Then they nerfed it and made sure that really well itemised gear didn't really exist (well, it did but it was mail so you had to murder the Resto Shammie to get it). Then in Cata they just killed it.

Yeah I was gutted when they changed us to play basically like priests. The flash heal fast-paced healing before that was great. I kinda understand why they did it but the old style healing was actual fun.

[Kalisandra]

Yeah I was gutted when they changed us to play basically like priests. The flash heal fast-paced healing before that was great. I kinda understand why they did it but the old style healing was actual fun.

I was a Holy Light fan. Enough Crit to make it vaguely affordable, tons of Haste to get the cast time right down, and all the Int you could gem to support the huge mana habit you now had.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Because the law of averages exist.
On average a group with a SV Hunter over a Ret Pally will perform better.
On average a group with a Destro Lock over a Ret Pally will perform better.
On average a group with both a SV Hunter and a Destro Lock will perform best, leaving 1 flex DPS spot - which is usually taken by the Shadow Priest, Feral Druid or Enhancer Shaman putting his own key up in the first place. And if that doesn't just so happen to be the case... there's still like 15 other specs that, on average, perform better than Rets.

And since pugging is all about averages and minimizing the chances of ruining your key, of course, no one wants to take one of the 20 Rets when there's also 3 Locks / Hunters / Monks queuing. That's just how it is. It's actually so bad that people would much rather take like 260 fotm classes than 270 non-fotm classes.

And yes, in reality, that's not how it usually works out. I'm frequently playing Ret myself and I constantly find myself outperforming SVs and Destros despite actually even being behind on ilvls. But that doesn't matter because pugs can't evaluate your skill level in advance. Which means that everyone applying is an idiot and that you take the idiot who, again, on average, will deal the most damage while constantly fucking up.

That's how it is. Numbers like m+ score or ilvl mean very little. Like, you can get carried to 3k m+ score super easily, so you really can't deduce skill from that. Getting to 275 is also just about waiting long enough to get all the free gear, so that's also nothing. The only thing you can look at is the average performance of your class color. And that is all that matters - which sadly means that Ret gets fucked just about fucking all the time.

Yeah I got to 3100 before stopping for the season and I could get 99 parses in a dungeon and do less than a SV hunter parsing blue.

And while pugging weeklies is easy at that rating, it still was impossible to get into a real group on the rare moment i tried to do keys without friends on. I just end up tanking most of the time instead.

And frankly, I get it. I would never invite a ret paladin to my groups either lmao. why would you when you could wait 10 seconds and get a hunter/monk. They have dramatically better utility and on average will do more damage

- - - Updated - - -

The DF talents looks optimal for what Retail Ret is currently at. Lots of options. But I still think that the core flow of the rotation is inferior to timing-based twisting.

No offense, I'm glad you enjoy this playstyle, but if they ever brought this into retail I'd drop my paladin and probably the game immediately lol