[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Cmon dude seriously? The main Ms Marvel comic was also cancelled along with this one. There is currently no solo Ms Marvel title being published. So this isn't the first cancellation for a character that has only been around for less than 10 years.

She had a run end just a couple of months ago, or do you really think a couple of months without a run or having a co run with another character like her upcoming wolverine one means a character was cancelled?

You really don’t know any thing about comics do you? I mean you couldn’t count in two hands how many times Wolverine has been canceled given that he hasn’t kept up a solo run all this time and has had year long stretches only being in the xmen.

[Ghost of Cow]

Why not? They did from a bunch of nobodies with Guardians of the Galaxy.

Yeah, if it's good it's good. If it's not, it's not.

Granted, I have zero confidence that anything will actually live up to RDJ. Especially not another literally perfect wunderkind character. (I've always had issue with that character archetype, just a pet peeve I guess.)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

These are corporations. Their job is to make money. They want to make comics that sell not just make stuff just to make stuff that doesn't sell. Overall comics are in a slump across the board. Manga are selling more than American comics. So it isn't a universal issue with creativity. So the argument that it is OK to fail isn't an argument. And doing things like Superman gay or turning Captain America into a Nazi don't help.

There is a lot of silly stuff being done at Marvel in the name of diversity or whatever the hell they want to call it.
But it isn't selling comics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNzhvFNOsN0

Wanting comics to sell =/= wanting to top there most popular characters with every new one. As far as them selling all of the characters in question either has steady sales for the duration of there story lines(Jane) or are still selling enough to be on going (miles and khan), again your idea that they failed is just objectively wrong.


And people need to stop spreading the miss information about manga, manga only outsells comics when you account world wide as in the east they make way more. the North American manga sales are only on par with floppies and far behind hard covers/GN.

[PrimiOne]

Dude, you just admitted defeat. My point was you can create new characters and stories by hiring people with creativity and talent. But according to you that is impossible. Fine. Agree to disagree.

You are just getting ridiculous as expected.

This is your point.

Like so many on this thread, they are basically claiming that creating something truly "new" that is popular is impossible, but the problem is they are using checklists and mandates to do it not actual creativity and imagination. If they did that it would be popular.

Over the last decades hundreds (literally) of characters has been created and I don't think you are arguing that there was forced diversity in the 80's or 90's ( or... is there diversity in Cable?) and despite that there's a single ocurrence of a character that has achieved similar (not equal) of the popularity of the big names of the silver and golden age: Wolverine.

So let's see in your hilarious arguing of Field of Dreams "Build it and they will come" how you rationalize that they built it and they did not come.

There has been forced diversity in all these decades or what?

Why no one came?

[InfiniteCharger]

She had a run end just a couple of months ago, or do you really think a couple of months without a run or having a co run with another character like her upcoming wolverine one means a character was cancelled?

You really don’t know any thing about comics do you? I mean you couldn’t count in two hands how many times Wolverine has been canceled given that he hasn’t kept up a solo run all this time and has had year long stretches only being in the xmen.

Stop being funny. So you mean a run of 18 issues is a successful run? LOL!

Top comics from Dec 2021 and the main titles are still the same old characters from decades ago:

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-december-2021

And high on that list is BRZRKR a brand new comic character created by Keanu Reeves.

[Endus]

Granted, I have zero confidence that anything will actually live up to RDJ. Especially not another literally perfect wunderkind character. (I've always had issue with that character archetype, just a pet peeve I guess.)

How is Tony Stark not a wunderkind, himself? And just checking the Wiki for Riri Williams' early history, it's pretty clear she's not "literally perfect" in any respect at all.

[Ghost of Cow]

How is Tony Stark not a wunderkind, himself? And just checking the Wiki for Riri Williams' early history, it's pretty clear she's not "literally perfect" in any respect at all.

Well, in Stark's case we really don't meet him (in the MCU, at least) until he's well into being an older, severely flawed, fucked up guy.

As for the rest, I don't know what to tell ya. It's just a character archetype that always rubs me the wrong way. (I blame young Anakin for finally breaking my brain) Granted, most superheroes are teens anyway, so it's just a whatever I guess.

[InfiniteCharger]

You are just getting ridiculous as expected.

This is your point.



Over the last decades hundreds (literally) of characters has been created and I don't think you are arguing that there was forced diversity in the 80's or 90's ( or... is there diversity in Cable?) and despite that there's a single ocurrence of a character that has achieved similar (not equal) of the popularity of the big names of the silver and golden age: Wolverine.

So let's see in your hilarious arguing of Field of Dreams "Build it and they will come" how you rationalize that they built it and they did not come.

There has been forced diversity in all these decades or what?

Why no one came?

So which one is it? You argued that it is impossible to create brand new characters that are successful that are not derivative of existing characters. Stop contradicting yourself. I disagree with you diverse or otherwise. No need to reword and rephrase what you said. I disagree. Period.

BRZRKR is a perfect example of this and there are others. I don't need to look them up you can do so yourself.

[Endus]

Stop being funny. So you mean a run of 18 issues is a successful run? LOL!

Top comics from Dec 2021 and the main titles are still the same old characters from decades ago:

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-december-2021

And high on that list is BRZRKR a brand new comic character created by Keanu Reeves.

Let's check a recent month, like this June, instead, shall we?

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...mics-june-2022

Miles Morales is #6, Jane Foster and the Mighty Thor is #13, Spider-Gwen is #41. Newer characters doing fine.

And sure, the old characters are there, too. Literally no one but you is thinking that newer characters were in any way meant as replacements, though. That remains complete nonsense.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Stop being funny. So you mean a run of 18 issues is a successful run? LOL!

here is a list of all of Spider-Man’s runs marvels most popular character, there are well over 10 with 18 or less issues, you just don’t understand how comics works if you think a 18 issue run makes a character a failure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...der-Man_titles

[InfiniteCharger]

How is Tony Stark not a wunderkind, himself? And just checking the Wiki for Riri Williams' early history, it's pretty clear she's not "literally perfect" in any respect at all.

Well keep in mind that Stark had a full story arc in the MCU starting as the first movie of the MCU and culminating in Endgame. It will be hard to come close to that.

[Endus]

So which one is it? You argued that it is impossible to create brand new characters that are successful that are not derivative of existing characters. Stop contradicting yourself. I disagree with you diverse or otherwise. No need to reword and rephrase what you said. I disagree. Period.

BRZRKR is a perfect example of this and there are others. I don't need to look them up you can do so yourself.

BRZRKR is absolutely derivative. An immortal warrior trying to figure out why he's immortal and how to die.

That's so derivative there's a TVTropes page for it; https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...UndyingWarrior

[InfiniteCharger]

Let's check a recent month, like this June, instead, shall we?

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...mics-june-2022

Miles Morales is #6, Jane Foster and the Mighty Thor is #13, Spider-Gwen is #41. Newer characters doing fine.

And sure, the old characters are there, too. Literally no one but you is thinking that newer characters were in any way meant as replacements, though. That remains complete nonsense.

OK. So you agree that replacing the OG Avengers in the MCU with these new characters makes no sense. Finally you get the point. Because what they are doing in the MCU is replacing the old ones. This is obvious.

here is a list of all of Spider-Man’s runs marvels most popular character, there are well over 10 with 18 or less issues, you just don’t understand how comics works if you think a 18 issue run makes a character a failure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...der-Man_titles

LOL! You are comparing Spider Man to Ms Marvel? 1960s Amazing Spider Man vol 1 had 100 issues.
Spider Man Vol 1 in the 90s also had 100 issues. There is no comparison.

[Endus]

Well keep in mind that Stark had a full story arc in the MCU starting as the first movie of the MCU and culminating in Endgame. It will be hard to come close to that.

Not until other characters get that much screen/story time, no. But if you're judging characters before they have said screen time, you're not judging them equally.

[Ghost of Cow]

BRZRKR is absolutely derivative. An immortal warrior trying to figure out why he's immortal and how to die.

That's so derivative there's a TVTropes page for it; https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...UndyingWarrior

Well sure, basically everything has a trope page for it.

It's a hell of a lot more meaningful than "Seven stories" at least.

[Jotaux]

This claim of yours is objectively false. Ms Marvel's been a big seller for Marvel since Khan's introduction.

https://www.vox.com/2020/1/7/2103817...an-disney-plus

As someone who enjoys the Ms. Marvel comics, I was under the impression it wasn't selling well. Did you even read the article you linked? Its seems to point to Kamala being a poor seller.

[Endus]

OK. So you agree that replacing the OG Avengers with these new characters makes no sense.
Finally you get the point.

Nope. That's not a point at all.

Ant-man's a founding Avenger. So was Hulk, though he nearly immediately betrayed the team and went villain. And Captain America was not, technically an OG Avenger. Hercules and Black Knight were on the team before Black Widow ever was. Spider-man didn't become an Avenger in the comics until 1991. The Avengers has always been a constantly-shifting cadre of characters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Avengers_members

So no, you don't have a point. Other than demonstrating a complete failure to understand the history of the Avengers as a team.

- - - Updated - - -

As someone who enjoys the Ms. Marvel comics, I was under the impression it wasn't selling well. Did you even read the article you linked? Its seems to point to Kamala being a poor seller.

Are you sure you read it?

"Ms. Marvel #1 was a critical and commercial hit, earning high marks from reviewers while going into seven printings; the demand for the issue was so high, it required Marvel to create more comic books seven times over to keep up."

[PrimiOne]

So which one is it? You argued that it is impossible to create brand new characters that are successful that are not derivative of existing characters. Stop contradicting yourself. I disagree with you diverse or otherwise. No need to reword and rephrase what you said. I disagree. Period.

Mate what a bad faith....it's actually funny lol.

I argued (and you know it) that is impossible to create new characters than can compete in popularity with the huge names of the genre and therefore you are gonna have derivatives of these characters. That does not exclude other characters but the question that started this conversation "Why so many derivatives?" is answered here: because they work.

But I'm not gonna let you get away with tangents,no ,maybe that works for you with other people, so have at least the minimal honesty to ask the question: there was forced diversity in the 80's or the 90's? If not ...why none of the characters achieved to compete in popularity with Spiderman as random example?
Because you are saying that derivatives are cheap and the minimal effort and if editorials would let people express without "some agenda" guidelines derivatives wouldn't be necessary and we could have new characters as sucessfull as the derivatives.

Well, why that did not happen? You say that the reason now is forced diversity.....why that did not happen in the prior decades?

[InfiniteCharger]

Not until other characters get that much screen/story time, no. But if you're judging characters before they have said screen time, you're not judging them equally.

Tony Starks character arc from a ego centric playboy to a humbled scientist that makes the ultimate sacrifice for humanity will be hard to match.

Credit where credit is due. That is a hard act to follow.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

- - - Updated - - -

It's still connected. The creation is originally Stark. Without him there's no James Rhodes.

Just like how without Reed Richards there is no Dr. Doom. Is Victor von Doom not an original character?