M+ Hot Take: M+ is not meant to be pugged

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Content that is fun with friends but can also be run with pugs when they aren't on is basically apex game design!

[KrayZ33]

If someone is interested in pushing, he would also be interested in finding a reliable/consistent group to have better results. If he's interested in gear only, there's no need to go past 15s.

It seems to me many people have a really skewed vision about how really matters the r.io score for most players.

The point is that you can do all that right now as well, what are you trying to achieve with your change?
And did it ever occur to you that it's pretty difficult to get together and do shit?
Not everyone can do it.

I play with 2 fathers with very young children, their time is very limited.
Why the heck are they not allowed to just enter a +20 whenever they can?
Do you know how much your suggested change would limit them?

[Goatfish]

I'm incredibly introverted but I can't understand these people who come in here expecting to play an MMO as a single player game and complain every time they need to interact with other humans.

My experience is roughly the same as a lot of other people in this thread. I've ran some +7's that are more difficult than +20's, almost undoubtedly because the people running the 20's almost always know their job and just do it. It's actually pretty glaringly obvious when someone has gotten carried to a higher rating and decides to try to pug a higher key on their own.

My own problem with M+ is quite a bit different than what I see anyone else complain about. Sure, there is the issue of doing the same 8 dungeons on repeat for 2 years. Sure, there is the issue of trying to find some stable players with a consistent playtime that matches your own schedule. The thing that really gets to me is that the entire model is boring and becomes more boring but also more frustrating as you progress. The whole model of "hurr-durr we're just going to scale health and damage to infinity" so that everything becomes damage sponges that 1-shot you isn't fun or engaging to me. Most of the affixes that are supposed to spice things up are either really annoying or almost completely ignorable. The whole system is just bad imo.

[neescher]

My own problem with M+ is quite a bit different than what I see anyone else complain about. Sure, there is the issue of doing the same 8 dungeons on repeat for 2 years. Sure, there is the issue of trying to find some stable players with a consistent playtime that matches your own schedule. The thing that really gets to me is that the entire model is boring and becomes more boring but also more frustrating as you progress. The whole model of "hurr-durr we're just going to scale health and damage to infinity" so that everything becomes damage sponges that 1-shot you isn't fun or engaging to me. Most of the affixes that are supposed to spice things up are either really annoying or almost completely ignorable. The whole system is just bad imo.

It's not perfect, and obviously it has flaws. However, it's still the best 5-man endgame content we ever had in wow.

Actually I'm even going one step further: It's the *only* 5-man endgame content we ever had in wow.

On topic: m+ is definitely puggable, and it would be a shame if they disallow pugging m+. Fortunately there's no way they're ever going to do that.

[schwarzkopf]

M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

M+ isn't fun when you aren't doing them... the four of us like to do M+, so we have to PUG.

It became easier a bit too late when cross faction pugging gave us access to more healers.

[Evolixe]

Because now 15s are high level content. To me it seems you're just trying to make high level M+ look more important than they really are (they're just a glorified validation method for a small subset of players).

I don't care about how "important" anyone else thinks the dungeons I do are, its a personal challenge to me.
You're projecting. Your thoughts and opinions on what content I do don't actually have any bearing on my experience or enjoyment of it.

[Tziva]

If someone is interested in pushing, he would also be interested in finding a reliable/consistent group to have better results. If he's interested in gear only, there's no need to go past 15s.

The grand majority of those of us who PuG in higher keys do so because it's the only way we can reasonably do the content as much as we want to. We're not PuGing because we love the gamble of playing with strangers. We're doing it because we haven't had luck finding a regular team, or because our friends have different schedules, or because they don't want to run as many keys as we do. Or maybe we do have a reliable/consistent group but sometimes we need to PuG a spot or two to fill in for unavailable members. Maybe we do keys with a large pool of players from an M+ community rather than a preset group of five players. There are a ton of great reasons why someone might play with strangers, but I just cannot possibly think of any benefit is had by denying people the ability to. What is the positive outcome of this that outweighs the negative for the people you're now denying access to that content for?

Like, I absolutely sincerely cannot find a justification of taking this position besides just being exclusionary for the sake of it. People who want a set team can still seek one out.

(they're just a glorified validation method for a small subset of players).

This might sound crazy but some of us do it because we enjoy it, not for some kind of external validation.

Frankly, you sound like you don't like m+ and are just wishlisting ways to ruin the fun for people that do.

Content that is fun with friends but can also be run with pugs when they aren't on is basically apex game design!

This.

[Tiwack]

With score in the game I don't see why they can't implement a mmr auto-queue system for M+ and depart from the keysystem already. M+ is meant to be played how you like but the keysystem actively keeps players from engaging with the game as they please and causes a lot of needless friction where there don't have to be any.

[Evolixe]

With score in the game I don't see why they can't implement a mmr auto-queue system for M+ and depart from the keysystem already. M+ is meant to be played how you like but the keysystem actively keeps players from engaging with the game as they please and causes a lot of needless friction where there don't have to be any.

Why?! Nobody that actually does high level M+ thinks that is a good idea.
There are far too many complications that come with taking away player agency over who are and aren't in their group.

If you really want this for your weekly 15 keys... sure, I think it just fosters toxicity, but whatever. But not in my 25+ keys, fuck no.

[MidnyteTV]

M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.

As solo;

-the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

-the pressure to preform is at an elevated level, beyond that of just rolling with friends, likely contributing to the toxicity problem.

-the wait times are horrendous if you are a dps. Even if you are assembling your own group. You either have to wait on a tank or a healer, or you spend a good chunk of your play time getting rejected, applying to join other groups.

-Even if the previous three aren't an issue, it has the same pitfalls as any pugs, in that people aren't always on the same page. Examples like unfamiliar routes, unintended mob pulls, wasted cooldowns, and a whole host of other coordination problems.

With no alternative end game content, it is as if Blizzard is trying to de-incentivize solo play.

I have to agree with OP. With a group of at least 2 other people, M+ is amazing. Pugging is absolute shit.

[Swnem]

Well... yes. Things tend to be more fun with a more relaxed group of buddies.
Doesn't mean it can't be pugged. Actually, it's impossible to stop it.

I do believe there is a new set of social rules. Maybe reporting the toxic people can lead to improved behaviour, but yes, there is always a bit of a lottery when it comes to pugging.
Heck, in the once so friendly FFXIV i had grief for not using sprint more often in a leveling roulette dungeon. Sadly there is no way to combat the fact that pugs are different people with different objectives and clashes will happen.

[Biomega]

Not sure what "meant to be" even means. Meant by whom? And stated for whom?

Clearly it CAN be pugged. Even pretty high keys. It's just harder I guess? Which is always true, for pretty much any form of PUG content?

Is this just a veiled attempt at trying to get people to complain about bad M+ runs, because after all they "were never meant" to be done in random groups? What does that achieve?

Very confused.

[Delekii]

Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.

Sure, it would reduce the pugging issues.. because nobody would do it.

[aceperson]

i think m+ is perfectly fine to be pugged. i think the issue actually stems from the timer but not for the reason people have been complaining about for years. the timer sets an expectation of how long the dungeon should take. it wasn't an issue for challenge modes because those only offered xmog items and mounts in one specific case so the majority of the player base didn't bother with it. m+ gives player power, aka gear.

the wow community was still toxic and short tempered even in cata but the heroic dungeons before they were nerfed were still tried and completed by many. people complained, but most people didn't ditch groups at the slightest inconvenience. it would usually take a couple bad pulls or one person constantly killing to group in most cases (please note i say most, there are always exceptions). like mentioned before, the timer sets an expectation. so when the expectation is chipped at and there is seemingly no room for error given the nature of the how unskilled the general player base is (and don't deny this, people don't even interrupt).

long story short, the timer causes people to lose their mind at the slightest mistake because m+ has conditioned them to expect little to no room for error. i think removing the timer will start swinging the pendulum of the average players mindset away from rage at a tiny mistake to being more tolerant (and tolerable in many cases). also, for the love of god bring back one piece of loot per boss. screw doing an entire dungeon, even if the timer is removed, just for two pieces of loot.

[neescher]

I have to agree with OP. With a group of at least 2 other people, M+ is amazing. Pugging is absolute shit.

If you think that way, there's an easy solution: Don't pug.

There's no reason for anyone to demand to take it away from the rest of us, who enjoy it.

[Moose184]

If I could pug to ksm as alliance, melee, off meta, during non peak hours, you can too. Being non meta will take longer but dsnt stop you from getting any invites.

Or, push your own key like I said.

I never said it couldn't be done solo. I said it's toxic and not a fun experience to do solo because people are shitty. Having to sit there for 1-2 hours trying to get an invite only for someone to leave before first boss is not fun.

[ellieg]

I never said it couldn't be done solo. I said it's toxic and not a fun experience to do solo because people are shitty. Having to sit there for 1-2 hours trying to get an invite only for someone to leave before first boss is not fun.

I'm saying it dsnt take 2 hrs to get an invite like u claimed. And if it does for u its cause ur rio is too low for the groups u are applying for like I said. And if u finally do get that invite to a key u aren't qualified for based on ur low rio, its no wonder ppl are toxic. The group is prob full of other low rating ppl that don't know what they are doing, which leads to frustration.

[neescher]

I never said it couldn't be done solo. I said it's toxic and not a fun experience to do solo because people are shitty. Having to sit there for 1-2 hours trying to get an invite only for someone to leave before first boss is not fun.

Two words: Own key.

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I'm saying it dsnt take 2 hrs to get an invite like u claimed. And if it does for u its cause ur rio is too low for the groups u are applying for like I said.

Not really... as a dps, it doesn't really matter what you are. If you're not 500+ score above the dungeon you're applying to, you're probably not getting invited unless your spec is super meta.

Like, if I don't play my own key or if I don't play with friends, I'm getting declined to 16s and 17s constantly with 3k+ score. It's genuinely hard to get invited to dungeons that actually increase your score if you're around 2.5k as a non-meta spec. You just gotta play your own keys, or play with friends.

[ellieg]

Two words: Own key.

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Not really... as a dps, it doesn't really matter what you are. If you're not 500+ score above the dungeon you're applying to, you're probably not getting invited unless your spec is super meta.

Like, if I don't play my own key or if I don't play with friends, I'm getting declined to 16s and 17s constantly with 3k+ score. It's genuinely hard to get invited to dungeons that actually increase your score if you're around 2.5k as a non-meta spec. You just gotta play your own keys, or play with friends.

This guy is talking abt keys under 15

[Lolites]

Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.

or you can just not pug if you dont want to and let other people pug if thats what they want to...
i know some people need their hand held but some of us can decide for ourself what we want to do or not, no need to outright make it imposible...