What's the point of the crafting changes if the rewards dont change?

[Toppy]

They are BOP, you buy the work order from the Auction House or something like that, no?

Also mentioning anything below Normal Raiding is also irrelevant, Blizzard clearly stated you can get 5 normal raid items at least from the new crafting profession and those 5 can reach Mythic tier.

The only thing that seems different to me is time of acquisition and RPG elements, thats it with the crafting, it sounds good on paper but its probably gonna be terrible.

The idea behind is that raiders will gather unique raid resources, etc. and then you can buy the gear directly from them. You purchase a craft essentially and they make for you a BOP mythic raid ilevel piece of gear.

You do realize, that's how it works now? Limited crafting gear slots, and raiders get a special resource that allows ilvls up to 3 ilvls below heroic level (we have no confirmation on whether DF crafting goes to mythic, but that is honestly, irrelevant). In the end, the system stays a raider only system. Which, has been the major reason that crafting has stayed largely irrelevant; its only really for a minority of players.

Its a system they've had for years now and its always been bad. Its why WoW crafting is a joke compared to other MMO where you can make raid level gear without raiding. It keeps crafting relevant and usable by anyone and not just raiders.

[cparle87]

Except Ion has outright stated that the crafted gear will only be at a raid level IF you're already raiding. You need gear from raiding to make said gear. And that gear will also be BoP.

In MoP you could get mats from the raid that would allow you to make the raid level gear more quickly. Non-raiders could still get it, but it would take longer. Maybe it's like that.

[Toppy]

In MoP you could get mats from the raid that would allow you to make the raid level gear more quickly. Non-raiders could still get it, but it would take longer. Maybe it's like that.

Devs have stated that you have to raid, mythic+, or competitve PvP to get the materials. Its by design.

[Goat7]

And therein lies the issue. The crafting system is made for raiders. They're the only ones who can take part in it at a higher level, full stop. Its not "A crafting system for everyone!" its "Raiders who craft also are getting extra gear"

I think you are not understanding the system at all.

The new system is not made for raiders, raiders are gonna get the gear either way, no this system is created so that people will buy tokens and convert it to gold and then buy the leftovers from the raiders, that is all it is, another money grab by Blizzard.

You best believe that any reagent BOP will become BOE 4-6 weeks after raid release. They will do all they can to sell dem tokens.

It is the only way this shit game still makes money, microtransactions.

[klaps_05]

You do realize, that's how it works now? Limited crafting gear slots, and raiders get a special resource that allows ilvls up to 3 ilvls below heroic level (we have no confirmation on whether DF crafting goes to mythic, but that is honestly, irrelevant). In the end, the system stays a raider only system. Which, has been the major reason that crafting has stayed largely irrelevant; its only really for a minority of players.

If you mean making money off crafting, then yes, it is raider only. but if you are person who doesnt step into a single raid, you can still buy 5 crafted items of the highest ilevel by paying a raider to craft one for you.

dont get me wrong - i would love to see the restrictions lifted and be able to craft yourself any slot at mythic raid level without having to raid, but blizz is more about marketing than allowing a 4th pillar in the game.

[Hellobolis]

Devs have stated that you have to raid, mythic+, or competitve PvP to get the materials. Its by design.

soooo 90% of players can get the materials without having to use gold?

give an example of how you get these high level craft materials in other MMOs, i'm gonna go on a limb here and guess it takes quite a long time to get them from world content and that you can't just craft the best gear in the game the instant it is released.

[Toppy]

soooo 90% of players can get the materials without having to use gold?

give an example of how you get these high level craft materials in other MMOs, i'm gonna go on a limb here and guess it takes quite a long time to get them from world content and that you can't just craft the best gear in the game the instant it is released.

90% would be a gross over estimate, then again a lot of people quit and those people were more likely to not be raiders since SL was geared towards raiding above all else.

Well the most popular example is FFXIV: You can make gear that fairly close to raid level from day one of a new raid tier. In the first patch you can then dungeon to get that gear to be a little higher. Its not the highest level, but it is raid quality, good for raiding, and due to how gemming works in that game, is the best gear for raiding for some time, with some slots being BIS crafted.

The grind for said gear is there, but its not going to take weeks by any stretch. And this raid gear is on top of all the cosmetic options on offer from crafting which WoW also lacks (and DF isnt improving, crafting is only for stats)

ESO is another example. With how their set bonuses work, often crafting is the only option depending on your playstyle, but the gear is, none the less, always viable and not requiring a big time investment outside of the initial leveling process. Plus, again, cosmetics.

[Echocho]

Yup it's utterly pointless. Blizzard is TERRIFIED to give casual players a rewarding gear progression path like the FFXIV tomestone system for example, not even over a long period of time do you deserve something good, it's FUCK YOU

[Hitei]

Yup it's utterly pointless. Blizzard is TERRIFIED to give casual players a rewarding gear progression path like the FFXIV tomestone system for example, not even over a long period of time do you deserve something good, it's FUCK YOU

What do casual players even need mythic gear for? They have a rewarding gear progression equivalent to the content they are doing. The issue here is that your statement should be: "not even over a long period of time do you deserve something totally excessive"--because they are already getting good stuff. Hell, casual players frequently get items a tier or even two tiers above their actual progression via shit like the weekly activity, or legendaries. This isn't about "rewarding gear" or "good gear", it's "why won't Blizzard allow me to get the absolute best gear just like the top end players, by doing faceroll content".

The entitlement is unreal. It's like people demanding they be able to unlock the high difficulty achievements in a video game by just doing the tutorial enough times.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

ESO is another example. With how their set bonuses work, often crafting is the only option depending on your playstyle, but the gear is, none the less, always viable and not requiring a big time investment outside of the initial leveling process. Plus, again, cosmetics.

ESO isn't really a great example because it's not really a gear game. I can log into characters with gear I crafted in like 2015 and still obliterate all world content with it.

Some people like that of course, but I do not!

[Hellobolis]

90% would be a gross over estimate, then again a lot of people quit and those people were more likely to not be raiders since SL was geared towards raiding above all else.

Well the most popular example is FFXIV: You can make gear that fairly close to raid level from day one of a new raid tier. In the first patch you can then dungeon to get that gear to be a little higher. Its not the highest level, but it is raid quality, good for raiding, and due to how gemming works in that game, is the best gear for raiding for some time, with some slots being BIS crafted.

The grind for said gear is there, but its not going to take weeks by any stretch. And this raid gear is on top of all the cosmetic options on offer from crafting which WoW also lacks (and DF isnt improving, crafting is only for stats)

ESO is another example. With how their set bonuses work, often crafting is the only option depending on your playstyle, but the gear is, none the less, always viable and not requiring a big time investment outside of the initial leveling process. Plus, again, cosmetics.

so in FFIV you have to do dungeons for craft mats, but in wow you have to do dungeons and it's bad? the gems presumably also dont just appear in your mailbox and presumably aren't all from solo content? and then just like in wow, only 1-2 slots are ever BIS from crafting, but there thats cool and in wow its bad? you didn't say how to upgrade the gear to BIS, so i'm just going to assume it requires stuff from the raid since the previous tier required dungeon mats and you didn't mention anything about solo/world content at all.

cool that you do not have to get recipies or level the profession itself though, wouldn't mind that in wow either since it's mostly just busywork 95% of the time, cool profession quest to unlock recipies are quite rare.

your ESO example sounds a bit extreme, you make it sound like gear from raiding/pvp/etc is obsolete in that game. and then it only takes a day orso to get that gear on top of it? guess the core player progression must be in other systems in that game?

[Gorsameth]

Agree with OP at worse you should be able craft gear for one content their higher than what you are actively clearing/progressing. Best option would be you could craft max ilvl gear (not BiS per say) via crafting and solo material gathering, opening crafting into its own mini-game/end game content/progression path.

Do you understand that crafting gear that is 1 difficulty higher then what you are progressing renders a lot of gear you would be currently getting already obsolete before it even drops? Not to mention screwing with the tuning of fights because now Heroic difficulty bosses need to be tuned around raiders running around in crafted Mythic level gear.

[Arikara]

Naturally, the point of overcomplicating crafting is to waste player time with confusion and busy-work.

I mean... maybe they actually mean well (doubtful as it is), but crafting just sort of can't be allowed to be the best source of gear, which has historically left it always being in a weird spot.

Consequently, the best use for crafting will always be to craft anything else but equippable gear—consumables, enchants and armor kits, and various tools such as engineering's shenanigans.

[Toppy]

Naturally, the point of overcomplicating crafting is to waste player time with confusion and busy-work.

I mean... maybe they actually mean well (doubtful as it is), but crafting just sort of can't be allowed to be the best source of gear, which has historically left it always being in a weird spot.

Consequently, the best use for crafting will always be to craft anything else but equippable gear—consumables, enchants and armor kits, and various tools such as engineering's shenanigans.

Any reason why crafted gear cant be BIS or competitive? It has worked, many times, in other MMO... wow included in some cases in earlier times.

[Niwes]

Looking through the crafting changes, and while I am glad they are adding some depth to the system as a whole, I am wondering if this will actually change anything. Hasn't Ion already stated that the crafted gear you'll be able to make wont be as good as end game PvP, Mythic+ and raid gear? In other words, the end result being the same as it is now, maybe even lower depending on what they decide to go with?

The most major problem of the crafting system wasnt that it was boring (mind you, that was a problem though), it was that it was unrewarding. And by Ion's own words, it looks like it's staying that way. I don't, and I imagine most wont, see much reason to put a bunch of time and effort into a system to get gear that'll be on par with heroic dungeon or LFR.

the short and simple answer: yes. it will change nothing.

When you have a closer look at the game, you realize HOW stupid, old and conservative their minds are. they will not change reward structures. they will not change reps to accountwide or campaign quest to accountwide (to better support ppls switching their main a few times in one xpacs lifetime). same with itemlevel of gear you get by world activities or from professions. they will stick to the same old philosophy and their stance will never change. i personaly gave it up and my wow career ends after 17 years with DF. they will never evolve the game or change their minds.

heck, even in TBC 15 years ago ppl did a 3piece BiS set (or was it just 1 item, can’t remember) by using professions. even damn fishing was useful back then, to get the water element profession mats for it, way cheaper than in AH.

as always Ion talks a lot of „changing this and that and everything will get better… we listen to you“. but it’s all BS marketing speech. in the end they stick to the same old conservative concepts, they using since over a decade, and just milk the cow. regardless what „system“ or UI they paint on top of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Any reason why crafted gear cant be BIS or competitive? It has worked, many times, in other MMO... wow included in some cases in earlier times.

for the reason just have a look above.

- - - Updated - - -

Naturally, the point of overcomplicating crafting is to waste player time with confusion and busy-work.

I mean... maybe they actually mean well (doubtful as it is), but crafting just sort of can't be allowed to be the best source of gear, which has historically left it always being in a weird spot.

Consequently, the best use for crafting will always be to craft anything else but equippable gear—consumables, enchants and armor kits, and various tools such as engineering's shenanigans.

as true as this is, it even sounds more hillarious stupid, when considering the following 2 things:

- yes, in ZM you can just take any item from PvP, raid or dungeons and convert it to a set piece with a single click.
- no, you are not allowed to craft BiS items or set pieces with farming mats and multiple clicks in your profession UI.

and this goes out to ppls, invested a lot of gold and time into their SL professions, with that stupid SL profession leggy system. man, spitting someone on street straight into his face, is way less unfriendly.

this company and this wow team is so out of touch, conservative and unable to ever evolve the game or their minds, it’s just hillarious. but in the end of the day they will change nothing and stick to their stupid, old, conservative design philosophies and milk the cow.

time to quit imo. things will never change. and it lasted long enough now.

[Stickiler]

You realize thats how it already works, right? You raid for the raid crafting material to up the ilvl.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this, there's nothing from raids that increases the ilvl of crafting materials in Shadowlands. The highest ilvl crafted is 262, which only requires materials from Zereth Mortis, and nothing else.

Even crafting legendaries at 291 doesn't require stepping in to a raid, unless you specifically need the legendary effect from the raid boss. And those legendary effects are spread across various content



[edit] I looked further in to what you're saying, but the only crafting material that drops in raids(Progenitor Essentia), ALSO drops from gathering nodes, treasure chests, etc, and in far greater quantities than in the raid.

[cuafpr]

Do you understand that crafting gear that is 1 difficulty higher then what you are progressing renders a lot of gear you would be currently getting already obsolete before it even drops? Not to mention screwing with the tuning of fights because now Heroic difficulty bosses need to be tuned around raiders running around in crafted Mythic level gear.

that's the point of getting gear? it's not you should be able to craft a full set higher than what you are clearing the second you max out a profession (or shouldn't be anyways). And no you tune the raids the same as you would cause again progression raiders are not going to wait around to craft full sets of gear vs going for world first/server first. Hell put a week-long cool down on a regeant that is used if its that big of an issue so you can craft on piece a week that is a one difficulty higher than what you are clearing.

[paxen]

The point of being a crafter is making gear. You invest time (and gold and resources) into skilling up, you can *make* the best gear.

But you can't use it, to use the best gear you actually have to raid (and hopefully also get equivalents through m+ and pvp). Which honestly makes sense: A master swordsmith makes the best blade in existence, puts his mark on it (crafted items have the crafter's name on it) and sells it to somebody who's actually going to use it: a raider. But the blacksmith himself doesn't become a great fighter just by making the sword. Instead he gets paid, and possibly also gets a rep as a good crafter on the server, the one you go to when you need to make a top quality item with your rare materials.

A crafter can now also make the best gear for their content: the new profession gear.

[cparle87]

Devs have stated that you have to raid, mythic+, or competitve PvP to get the materials. Its by design.

Why do you seem upset that people who do challenge group content in a group game get better rewards?

[Echocho]

What do casual players even need mythic gear for? They have a rewarding gear progression equivalent to the content they are doing. The issue here is that your statement should be: "not even over a long period of time do you deserve something totally excessive"--because they are already getting good stuff. Hell, casual players frequently get items a tier or even two tiers above their actual progression via shit like the weekly activity, or legendaries. This isn't about "rewarding gear" or "good gear", it's "why won't Blizzard allow me to get the absolute best gear just like the top end players, by doing faceroll content".

The entitlement is unreal. It's like people demanding they be able to unlock the high difficulty achievements in a video game by just doing the tutorial enough times.

That's fine. If Blizzard don't want the casual playerbase back we'll happily stay over at FFXIV where we're allowed to get the second best gear in the game over the course of a patch purely from casual content. Fucking snowflakes playing WoW, you're all so afraid of anyone else playing with your toys that you'd rather the game fucking died, it's pathetic