What's the point of the crafting changes if the rewards dont change?

[BurntOwl]

why can't we just have good player power items from crafting, like any other mmorpg?

I liked it too back when you could farm out some half decent gear this way.

I think nowadays you'd have to make the mats and gear BoP though, otherwise you'd just end up being able to buy a bunch of gold via WoW tokens, go on the AH and get really good gear. I mean boosting already does this I guess but even so, no need to make the situation worse than it is.

It was cool back when you could farm up the mats for an Arcanite Reaper and have a dope weapon that way.

[Celement]

The cynical part of me thinks it's just to encourage trading by forcing raiders to pay for items rather then acquire boes.

They are not willing to destroy the reward structure of the game to save crafting.

[Stickiler]

yes so im a Leatherworker,

i raid, so dont need the crafted gear of raid ilvl,

i can make it stick it on AH and the person who buys it, it binds to them.

That's not how it works. The raider will submit a Crafting Work Order, requesting a specific item be crafted for them, and they'll provide x materials and/or gold, then you as the crafter can accept the work order, craft the item, and send it through the Work Order to them.

[Nymrohd]

I'd like to say that it is normal to not expect any content but challenging and instanced content to award the highest level of gear but then again M15 is only barely challenging, especially with meta specs and does award the highest level gear . . .
Anyway I think it would be OK for crafting to offer full heroic gear. Not just 5 slots, full heroic gear. We've had extensive access to gear that is just one tier below the best at a fairly slow pace (MoP, BfA) and it never broke the reward system. If it is very slow, it's not needed by raiders so they can raid log and not whine incessantly that an RPG asks them to do more than one thing. Crafting can naturally make acquisition slow by using timegated BoP components.

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Nice strawman, thank you. I'll bring a torch for later.

On the off chance you're actually attempting to discuss I'll try. You said this: "The system of "You can only get gear via raiding or mythic+" This is literally untrue. A person who has never grouped with or seen another person can get 246 tier, 252 in every slot but trinkets, the same legendaries as the mythic raiders, right now they can get normal raid conduits and next week they'll get mythic raid conduits. There has literally never been a time when the gap between the most casual of soloers and mythic raiders.

Your problem seems to be that you don't think there should be ANY gap, and you try to pass off the fiction that not getting BiS from solo content in a team game is somehow bad game design.

? There absolutely have been times when that gap was tighter. In the previous expansion a casual player could easily cap conquest every week and have full heroic in all slots with some of the best Azerite Trait combinations and stats and great trinkets. Add 5 slots of Horrific Vision gear at just 5 ilvls below Mythic and the cape and the gap was far far tighter. In MoP you had Ordos dropping so many slots at warforged heroic, half a tier below mythic.

Did the raiding scene suffer because of that?

[Revamp Man]

Top reagents come from
Mythic raid
High m+
Rated pvp
And possibly high level world content

We won't know anything for sure until it's released in testing but we do know it's far better than what we've had recently where crafted gear has been little more than an ilvl boost

[Nymrohd]

I think you are not understanding the system at all.

The new system is not made for raiders, raiders are gonna get the gear either way, no this system is created so that people will buy tokens and convert it to gold and then buy the leftovers from the raiders, that is all it is, another money grab by Blizzard.

You best believe that any reagent BOP will become BOE 4-6 weeks after raid release. They will do all they can to sell dem tokens.

It is the only way this shit game still makes money, microtransactions.

Yeah this system seems made for goblins and completionists. I think casual players who realize they do not get any actual progression from this, they can just make good margins will just not engage. Goblins are preparing their armies of alts to take advantage of the system and completionists will grind the system not so much to use it but because it is another UI with bars they can fill.

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What do casual players even need mythic gear for? They have a rewarding gear progression equivalent to the content they are doing. The issue here is that your statement should be: "not even over a long period of time do you deserve something totally excessive"--because they are already getting good stuff. Hell, casual players frequently get items a tier or even two tiers above their actual progression via shit like the weekly activity, or legendaries. This isn't about "rewarding gear" or "good gear", it's "why won't Blizzard allow me to get the absolute best gear just like the top end players, by doing faceroll content".

The entitlement is unreal. It's like people demanding they be able to unlock the high difficulty achievements in a video game by just doing the tutorial enough times.

Their gear progression caps too fast. That's the problem. There needs to be some continued progression. It could be incremental and tiny (though by virtue of how long it takes Blizzard to release content it would still probably reach heroic) but as it is now, many casuals will cap their progression in the first few weeks of a patch and have nothing to do after that. Every gameplay needs progression that at least lasts for a few months. Someone who just plays M+ will still have a chance at an upgrade many months into a patch. Raiders often chase a drop until the last day the raid is current. And in many expansions casual players could slowly grind to a limited BiS that would take 3-4 months to acquire by grinding valor caps, grinding timegated profession mats, heck only as far back as in BfA grinding Conquest.

I understand that it seems like entitlement and I absolutely agree that people who say they need to be able to get Mythic gear are just being morons (but then again M15 . . .) But I think the actual grievance comes from a system that just stops being rewarding very fast. The last system we got was Zereth Mortis and you could cap it in three weeks even at launch. Korthia took a bit longer (but the acquisition method was just dreadful).

Part of the issue is probably that the world systems are not fully intended for casual players. A big part of them is meant to be raider catchup gear and thus has to be available fast.

[potis]

What do casual players even need mythic gear for? They have a rewarding gear progression equivalent to the content they are doing. The issue here is that your statement should be: "not even over a long period of time do you deserve something totally excessive"--because they are already getting good stuff. Hell, casual players frequently get items a tier or even two tiers above their actual progression via shit like the weekly activity, or legendaries. This isn't about "rewarding gear" or "good gear", it's "why won't Blizzard allow me to get the absolute best gear just like the top end players, by doing faceroll content".

The entitlement is unreal. It's like people demanding they be able to unlock the high difficulty achievements in a video game by just doing the tutorial enough times.

Cause they claim the progression ends too fast, reality of the sitution is, they arent casual at all, they are people that have been playing for a long time and know a few things about the game, therefor they complete the trivial content quickly, but refuse to engage to content that they should be engaging for how long they have been playing and their knowledge level.

Thats all there is to it, now the reason why the refuse are their own,whether its personal skill, or time schedule, or whatever excuse is trending this week on here, but the end result is always the same "Give me free gear".

[Celement]

Yeah this system seems made for goblins and completionists. I think casual players who realize they do not get any actual progression from this, they can just make good margins will just not engage. Goblins are preparing their armies of alts to take advantage of the system and completionists will grind the system not so much to use it but because it is another UI with bars they can fill.

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Their gear progression caps too fast. That's the problem. There needs to be some continued progression. It could be incremental and tiny (though by virtue of how long it takes Blizzard to release content it would still probably reach heroic) but as it is now, many casuals will cap their progression in the first few weeks of a patch and have nothing to do after that. Every gameplay needs progression that at least lasts for a few months. Someone who just plays M+ will still have a chance at an upgrade many months into a patch. Raiders often chase a drop until the last day the raid is current. And in many expansions casual players could slowly grind to a limited BiS that would take 3-4 months to acquire by grinding valor caps, grinding timegated profession mats, heck only as far back as in BfA grinding Conquest.

I understand that it seems like entitlement and I absolutely agree that people who say they need to be able to get Mythic gear are just being morons (but then again M15 . . .) But I think the actual grievance comes from a system that just stops being rewarding very fast. The last system we got was Zereth Mortis and you could cap it in three weeks even at launch. Korthia took a bit longer (but the acquisition method was just dreadful).

Part of the issue is probably that the world systems are not fully intended for casual players. A big part of them is meant to be raider catchup gear and thus has to be available fast.

I don't think it will be effective for making gold. It seems to easy to bot it's more likely crafting will cost a gold or so.

[Nymrohd]

I don't think it will be effective for making gold. It seems to easy to bot it's more likely crafting will cost a gold or so.

Yeah I'm afraid the best way to level will be to just bot work orders if that is the most effective way to level specializations. Which will also mean that outside the few megaservers per region that have active Mythic raiding scenes, leveling professions will be a PITA.

[Celement]

Yeah I'm afraid the best way to level will be to just bot work orders if that is the most effective way to level specializations. Which will also mean that outside the few megaservers per region that have active Mythic raiding scenes, leveling professions will be a PITA.

I think it will be worse then that. Mythic players will sell crafting levels to crafters since they need the bop items.

If you think your going to make money off this...maybe in the first week if you can make ideal stats. After that your quickly going to craft for mat cost at best.

[Nymrohd]

Thats all there is to it, now the reason why the refuse are their own,whether its personal skill, or time schedule, or whatever excuse is trending this week on here, but the end result is always the same "Give me free gear".

Schedule is not an excuse, its an actual issue. You never had guild members stop showing up because of scheduling issues? And the "give me free gear" is a strawman you constructed to fit the "Entitled" narrative. The playerbase that prefers world content has had decent quality gear but it was never free and it came after long periods of grinding, often a scale of magnitude longer than what instanced content players would have to commit.

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I think it will be worse then that. Mythic players will sell crafting levels to crafters since they need the bop items.

If you think your going to make money off this...maybe in the first week if you can make ideal stats. After that your quickly going to craft for mat cost at best.

We'll see. I think it will heavily depend on each server. While commodities will be region wide, work orders are still locked in your server group. I'm in Argent Dawn so I expect we will struggle to find plenty of work orders for crafting mythic gear. However in other servers that have plenty of Mythic raiding guilds and a larger % of raid loggers, crafters may be selling at a premium.

[Celement]

Schedule is not an excuse, its an actual issue. You never had guild members stop showing up because of scheduling issues? And the "give me free gear" is a strawman you constructed to fit the "Entitled" narrative. The playerbase that prefers world content has had decent quality gear but it was never free and it came after long periods of grinding, often a scale of magnitude longer than what instanced content players would have to commit.

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We'll see. I think it will heavily depend on each server. While commodities will be region wide, work orders are still locked in your server group. I'm in Argent Dawn so I expect we will struggle to find plenty of work orders for crafting mythic gear. However in other servers that have plenty of Mythic raiding guilds and a larger % of raid loggers, crafters may be selling at a premium.

I doubt it... the only way I could see it happening is if they make the sought after crafting patterns absurdly rare like tbc.

Crafting in wow on raid servers has always relied on afk volume crafting to be profitable. I see this as a less sought after version of crafting leggos in sl. As its iffy if by the time a raider gets a bop to craft if the item will even be needed.

Making the system boa makes more sense to me as it would create catch up gear.

[Nymrohd]

I doubt it... the only way I could see it happening is if they make the sought after crafting patterns absurdly rare like tbc.

Crafting in wow on raid servers has always relied on afk volume crafting to be profitable. I see this as a less sought after version of crafting leggos in sl. As its iffy if by the time a raider gets a bop to craft if the item will even be needed.

Making the system boa makes more sense to me as it would create catch up gear.

Yeah the bolded part is the one I am most wary of. You supposedly need to stack specializations, equipment and even get lucky with inspiration to be able to craft the highest level gear. By the time you get there the top guilds in most servers will have enough Mythic bosses on farm that you will be crafting sidegrades at most. The only way it could work is if the loot system actually depends on crafted gear (i.e. raids drop less gear but also drop mats and you NEED to use the mats to progress your gear meaningfully).

[Celement]

Yeah the bolded part is the one I am most wary of. You supposedly need to stack specializations, equipment and even get lucky with inspiration to be able to craft the highest level gear. By the time you get there the top guilds in most servers will have enough Mythic bosses on farm that you will be crafting sidegrades at most. The only way it could work is if the loot system actually depends on crafted gear (i.e. raids drop less gear but also drop mats and you NEED to use the mats to progress your gear meaningfully).

Sounds like a shitty raider tax like augment runes then.

Even mythic plus though assuming a crafting mat drops one in ten runs if it makes the same ilv as the run would I want to bother with it?

I don't think crafting works well in wow to be honest. It is either brokenly overpowered like tbc or it's useless to higher end players beyond consumables.

[Nymrohd]

Sounds like a shitty raider tax like augment runes then.

Even mythic plus though assuming a crafting mat drops one in ten runs if it makes the same ilv as the run would I want to bother with it?

I don't think crafting works well in wow to be honest. It is either brokenly overpowered like tbc or it's useless to higher end players beyond consumables.

Tbh replacing the hundreds of items that have just stats and no other interactions with crafted gear you can custom make to your specifications can well be an improvement. It would mean loot tables are much easier to make and that the loot that drops may be scarce but will be impactful. But it would be a completely different approach to looting than what we have now.

[PenguinChan]

We shall see, I still think the token is going to change some how, a lot of the things they are doing to make the core game better would be even better without the token.

Disagree, as it just invites RMT bots back in the game for no reason. Better to decouple future expansions from giving gold any worth outside cosmetics and removing the problem in time.

[Nymrohd]

Disagree, as it just invites RMT bots back in the game for no reason. Better to decouple future expansions from giving gold any worth outside cosmetics and removing the problem in time.

How would you decouple consumables from gold though? There needs to be a market. You could remove raid BoEs which is one of the major gold transactions but then you have consumables and crafted gear.

[Coldkil]

Except Ion has outright stated that the crafted gear will only be at a raid level IF you're already raiding. You need gear from raiding to make said gear. And that gear will also be BoP.

Or M+. Which means (as things are now, and are possibly changing) you can spam 15s to get near Mythic ilvl gear in a faster and more reliable way.

Which is basically what people already do. The change in professions, if nothing is going to change in the reward structure, will actually make M+ even better to get geared. And something is going to change - the s4 experiments are something they're making in preparation for DF and possibly all future raids.

[VinceVega]

I don't think crafting should give you gear so far ahead of content you are doing.

Maybe 2-3 pieces you can farm together over a few week on mythic level. But very time intensive.

If you let crafters make everything on top level you completly invalidate the reward structure of wow...
Just spend a week farming and your are BiS... yay.... make it time gated via CDs and people complain it is time gated.

You should be able to craf nromal raid level gear no matter what, because lets face it it is a dead difficulty. Some pieces need stuff from the raid some need just open world mats.
As soon as you get to the Ilvl of heroic you should need mats from normal raiding endbosses and the same with heroic/mythic.

But non of these crafted gear pieces should be better than mythic+/raiding/pvp.
Actually playing the game should always give you the best gear and not going to the AH and buy a bunch of mats with my Token i bougth for real money.

[klaps_05]

I don't think crafting should give you gear so far ahead of content you are doing.

Maybe 2-3 pieces you can farm together over a few week on mythic level. But very time intensive.

If you let crafters make everything on top level you completly invalidate the reward structure of wow...
Just spend a week farming and your are BiS... yay.... make it time gated via CDs and people complain it is time gated.

You should be able to craf nromal raid level gear no matter what, because lets face it it is a dead difficulty. Some pieces need stuff from the raid some need just open world mats.
As soon as you get to the Ilvl of heroic you should need mats from normal raiding endbosses and the same with heroic/mythic.

But non of these crafted gear pieces should be better than mythic+/raiding/pvp.
Actually playing the game should always give you the best gear and not going to the AH and buy a bunch of mats with my Token i bougth for real money.

Its not far ahead as you will have to wait for crafters to raid and collect enough raid materials to be able to craft items to put on the AH as work orders. There is also research timegating in each profession so you cant learn and level it within an hour.

This would also be great for alts you leveled late into the tier as you will be able to immediately buy the mythic gear off the AH as there will be more and more crafters.