What's the point of the crafting changes if the rewards dont change?

[Nymrohd]

I don't think crafting should give you gear so far ahead of content you are doing.

Maybe 2-3 pieces you can farm together over a few week on mythic level. But very time intensive.

If you let crafters make everything on top level you completly invalidate the reward structure of wow...
Just spend a week farming and your are BiS... yay.... make it time gated via CDs and people complain it is time gated.

You should be able to craf nromal raid level gear no matter what, because lets face it it is a dead difficulty. Some pieces need stuff from the raid some need just open world mats.
As soon as you get to the Ilvl of heroic you should need mats from normal raiding endbosses and the same with heroic/mythic.

But non of these crafted gear pieces should be better than mythic+/raiding/pvp.
Actually playing the game should always give you the best gear and not going to the AH and buy a bunch of mats with my Token i bougth for real money.

But the idea here is that Crafting IS content. It would not be giving you gear ahead of what you are doing because you would effectively be doing Heroic Crafting.

[VinceVega]

But the idea here is that Crafting IS content. It would not be giving you gear ahead of what you are doing because you would effectively be doing Heroic Crafting.

As long as i can buy gold with tokens and crafting uses stuff i can buy mainly with gold... i can't really see it as content tbh... sure it IS content per definition. Store Mount are also content.
But if i can skip said content with real money... i would put into the "mobile mechanics content" category. Especially if it is comparable to endgame.

[Aresk]

As long as i can buy gold with tokens and crafting uses stuff i can buy mainly with gold... i can't really see it as content tbh... sure it IS content per definition. Store Mount are also content.
But if i can skip said content with real money... i would put into the "mobile mechanics content" category. Especially if it is comparable to endgame.

You can't buy BoP mats with gold, and those mats are going to be required for the work orders you place to get your crafted gear from others (or make for yourself), so gold buying power isn't going to be an issue for the proposed crafting system.

[Nymrohd]

As long as i can buy gold with tokens and crafting uses stuff i can buy mainly with gold... i can't really see it as content tbh... sure it IS content per definition. Store Mount are also content.
But if i can skip said content with real money... i would put into the "mobile mechanics content" category. Especially if it is comparable to endgame.

I mean I can buy raid clears with gold too.

[VinceVega]

I mean I can buy raid clears with gold too.

So? Lets make everything buyable. What is your point? Has nothing to do with what people talk about here.

Still a difference between paying to play the game on easy mode (boosts) and paying to not have to play the game at all (buying gear). Don't like either. But i rather have boosts than complete wellfare mythic gear which is what some people ask for who are the same people who will complain that there is nothing to do.

[Nymrohd]

So? Lets make everything buyable. What is your point? Has nothing to do with what people talk about here.

Still a difference between paying to play the game on easy mode (boosts) and paying to not have to play the game at all (buying gear). Don't like either. But i rather have boosts than complete wellfare mythic gear which is what some people ask for who are the same people who will complain that there is nothing to do.

You said that crafting is not content because you can buy the materials. Which was not really an argument since you can buy access to every type of content in the game at this point. Considering that Dragonflight crafting requires a multi level grind, acquiring items from other crafters, leveling specializations, acquiring specialty gear etc. then it is meant to be a progression track on its own. It's content. And thus it should have a rewarding progression.

[VinceVega]

You said that crafting is not content because you can buy the materials. Which was not really an argument since you can buy access to every type of content in the game at this point. Considering that Dragonflight crafting requires a multi level grind, acquiring items from other crafters, leveling specializations, acquiring specialty gear etc. then it is meant to be a progression track on its own. It's content. And thus it should have a rewarding progression.

Agree to disagree.

[Malania]

This game is too laser focussed on gear aided progression, which means they always have to set gates on the gear you can craft. I never realised how bad it had gotten until recently.

But from what I understand the raid guilds will get the tokens and patterns like they used too, you assign a work order, your mats can be used and they craft it to order for you. It can't be resold as a BoE, it's BoP to you as it's a work order.

[Stickiler]

Its not far ahead as you will have to wait for crafters to raid and collect enough raid materials to be able to craft items to put on the AH as work orders. There is also research timegating in each profession so you cant learn and level it within an hour.

This would also be great for alts you leveled late into the tier as you will be able to immediately buy the mythic gear off the AH as there will be more and more crafters.

That's not how it works. Work Orders aren't placed by the crafters, they're placed by the raider.

So raider does raid, gets BoP material, places Work Order for a crafter to make an item with that material. Crafter fulfils the work order by crafting using that material, raider gets item.

You can't place a Work order containing a BoP material unless you got that BoP material yourself.

[enigma77]

That's fine. If Blizzard don't want the casual playerbase back we'll happily stay over at FFXIV where we're allowed to get the second best gear in the game over the course of a patch purely from casual content. Fucking snowflakes playing WoW, you're all so afraid of anyone else playing with your toys that you'd rather the game fucking died, it's pathetic

Yes, you do that. Everybody should play the game they like. We won't miss you in WoW.

[Vakna]

The point is to make crafting a decent source of gear, the rewards do change, you'll be able to make items with the highest ilvl in the game, or very close to it

obviously it won't be a welfare system, you already have the weekly vault for that and people already do not deserve this, doing a +15 should not award mythic raid ilvl gear, it's extremely disproportionate to the low effort required

IMO it should be even easier than +15 to obtain the best gear in the game, gear acquisition should be largely irrelevant, just put a reasonable amount of time into playing the game and every person should be able to get BiS pretty quickly. Gear should not be a reward - it's like giving someone a shovel as a reward for digging a hole with their hands, what's the point, the hole is already dug? Rewards from difficult content should be something different than gear, something permanent with no relevance to your player power whatsoever. Difficult content should be done for the feeling of accomplishment, not for some arbitrary increase in stats.

[Unholyground]

Disagree, as it just invites RMT bots back in the game for no reason. Better to decouple future expansions from giving gold any worth outside cosmetics and removing the problem in time.

Bots have only gotten worse since the introduction of the token, the amount of digital goods purchased through botting is higher than it ever would have been otherwise since you can exchange the tokens for b.net currency and buy current expansions. Whales have made it so bots can thrive in the current ecosystem and most modern bots are undetectable.

The consequences of the token existing at all have changed the game in some fundamental ways and they are all a net negative for the game as a whole.

[Alydael]

Looking through the crafting changes, and while I am glad they are adding some depth to the system as a whole, I am wondering if this will actually change anything. Hasn't Ion already stated that the crafted gear you'll be able to make wont be as good as end game PvP, Mythic+ and raid gear? In other words, the end result being the same as it is now, maybe even lower depending on what they decide to go with?

The most major problem of the crafting system wasnt that it was boring (mind you, that was a problem though), it was that it was unrewarding. And by Ion's own words, it looks like it's staying that way. I don't, and I imagine most wont, see much reason to put a bunch of time and effort into a system to get gear that'll be on par with heroic dungeon or LFR.

That's why I always say that the problem with this game isn't the content, its the reward structure.
There is a ton of content in this game (maybe more than any other game ever),its just not properly incentivized- so nobody does it.

I agree with you that the professions revamp will only work if the there are good rewards from it. If there are not good rewards- it could be the best, most engaging system ever and nobody will do it.

It blows my mind- you can do an M 15 plus, fail it miserably, basically just bang your head against the wall for 1-2 hrs to complete it (not timed) and you will get a 270 item. Yet they won't let you obtain a comparable reward from crafting? Why the hell not?

Until Blizz gets over its strange fetish of giving valuable gear for group content only (no matter how bad and unengaging that group content might be), all the other systems in the game will suffer. In fact, if they are unwilling to give the same level gear that is obtainable from m plus and other content- then don't even waste your time re doing the professions. It will be a total waste because if the rewards are not there, nobody will do it.

[AcidicSyn]

I was curious.

We know already that the BOP mats required to get higher level (we'll say m+ quality gear for conversations sake) only drop inside of said content, m+ in this case.

The way work orders work, you can choose to provide those bop mats or not, the one issuing the work order does not HAVE to be the one providing it, even though this might be the expected norm.

Assuming I understand this correctly, couldn't someone who does not do M+ put in a work order requiring that the crafter provide the bop mats? (So, for instance, a tailor who DOES run Mythic+ would be the one to fulfill this work order) In this way, a non-M+ dungeoneer could simply buy those 5 pieces using gold? (I'm sure it would be comically expensive to do so, and I sure wouldn't, but technically possible no?)

[ellieg]

why can't we just have good player power items from crafting, like any other mmorpg?

too many crybabies feeling threatened that crafters have access to endgame gear via crafting, and the raidloggers feeling threatened because they are now "forced to do crafting to stay competitive"

Is that not literally what legendaries are right now?

[klaps_05]

That's not how it works. Work Orders aren't placed by the crafters, they're placed by the raider.

So raider does raid, gets BoP material, places Work Order for a crafter to make an item with that material. Crafter fulfils the work order by crafting using that material, raider gets item.

You can't place a Work order containing a BoP material unless you got that BoP material yourself.

The system is in its early stage, but the idea is that the buyer has access to the workorder over the AH and can order a crafted piece, which requires raid mats. That is the whole point of having professions relevant - that you as a non-raider can get mythic raider-level gear. If not implemented that way, then the entire work on professions is completely irrelevant and they may as well scrap it now as it will be just like the existing system.

[ellieg]

IMO it should be even easier than +15 to obtain the best gear in the game, gear acquisition should be largely irrelevant, just put a reasonable amount of time into playing the game and every person should be able to get BiS pretty quickly. Gear should not be a reward - it's like giving someone a shovel as a reward for digging a hole with their hands, what's the point, the hole is already dug? Rewards from difficult content should be something different than gear, something permanent with no relevance to your player power whatsoever. Difficult content should be done for the feeling of accomplishment, not for some arbitrary increase in stats.

So you can dig a bigger hole? As in progress to harder content. If you don't like that design, there are plenty of other games that wld cater to u. Wow has always been this way

[Vakna]

So you can dig a bigger hole? As in progress to harder content. If you don't like that design, there are plenty of other games that wld cater to u. Wow has always been this way

Perhaps I need to clarify, what I meant was I don't think gear should be a reward from the hardest content in the game - Mythic raids. It doesn't bother me enough to quit over it as you so quickly jumped to in your reply, I just think the game would be better if gear wasn't the driving factor. As you said there are other games that successfully adopted this approach and it works just fine. I just don't think chasing a gear treadmill, especially when you have to beat the hardest content to get the best gear (makes no sense), is appealing.

It's better than it used to be (legendary items dropping from final bosses - absolute meme), but it could get better.

[Biomega]

I just think the game would be better if gear wasn't the driving factor.

That's probably true in general, not just in terms of mythic raiding - WoW has become so laser-focused on gear, other rewards are nearing meaninglessness. The result is that any system that DOESN'T involve gear as a reward driver automatically suffers from massive participation problems.

That's probably what would happen to mythic raiding if you took gear away. There'd still be super hardcore people doing it for the sake of doing it, but there'd very likely be a massive drop-off in participation across the board if the greater effort doesn't come with greater reward. How many of those people would then go and do lower-difficulty content instead of quitting outright we can't know - but it's a potential issue for sure.

What WoW would need is a different reward driver, some kind of horizontal progression system that can offer meaningful alternatives to just having gear/character power on everything. Whether or not that can actually feasibly be implemented at that point is a different question; could well be that WoW is too old, and the reward system too entrenched to change now.

[ellieg]

Perhaps I need to clarify, what I meant was I don't think gear should be a reward from the hardest content in the game - Mythic raids. It doesn't bother me enough to quit over it as you so quickly jumped to in your reply, I just think the game would be better if gear wasn't the driving factor. As you said there are other games that successfully adopted this approach and it works just fine. I just don't think chasing a gear treadmill, especially when you have to beat the hardest content to get the best gear (makes no sense), is appealing.

It's better than it used to be (legendary items dropping from final bosses - absolute meme), but it could get better.

I'll reframe it then. You get a shovel so you can more easily dig a hole. Best gear coming from hardest content lets u more easily reclear that content. Also let's you jump into other areas (m+, pvp) and have an easier time.

I personally like the gear driven approach. Idc if my char looks badass, wears a pink tutu, or looks like a hobo. Cosmetics has always been lame to me