The Return of Talent Tress, Or: Unnecessary, Too Much Work, Missing Something 2.0

**oldgeezer** · 2022-08-04, 06:29 AM

I'd like the game to have a 'default build' button for the newbies/lazy folks/world questers. (I fall in the latter two categories).

Just press it and the talents are filled automatically as you level. It doesn't need to be optimal, it just needs to give a basically functional build. I CBA with researching the new trees; it looks boring as all hell.

**Razorice** · 2022-08-04, 06:32 AM

It honestly doesn't matter what Talent system Blizzard implements. Most people will either go on WoWhead or Icyveins and copy-paste the build.

**Nyel** · 2022-08-04, 06:34 AM

You act like those talent trees are something brand new when in fact they put all of the existing talents, skills and traits in there, added maybe 5% new stuff and called it a day.

These new talent trees are as basic and uninnovative as it gets, in most cases they are a simple UI change making the spellbook and "old" talent system a new talent tree. There's really not much going on anyway and most builds are the same as they are now, even if there are new (but very minor) changes on how they are approached or work.

**ChronoSul** · 2022-08-04, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by bloodmoth13

New trees are okay, you basically spec into one of three builds where you pick either left, right or sides only, it shouldnt be too hard to balance so long as the best stuff is kept as capstone talents.

What does bother me is the stupid design of having utility in the spec tree and damage in the class tree. outside of capstone talents the class tree should be pure utility and the spec tree pure throughput. This is very evident in the shadow priest tree where your CC and raid utility are on the spec side which means you will never have them, and the class tree has one single line designed purely for damage which severely limits the options. you will always pick the damage talents in the class tree hands down and you will never pick the utility talents in the spec tree. THAT is stupid design, choosing between performance and utility is NEVER a choice and no amount of nuance will 'fix' that.

Rogue trees have similar problems where branches are useless because they are utility and dont improve performance.

This system isnt far off from my idea of a perfect system they just need to fix a few things here and there and it will be golden.
Make class tree pure utility, make spec pure performance.

The new trees function nothing like the old vanilla ones, they only look similar. the new trees have separate trunks and clusters that are effectively exclusive with others. One thing that it does do very well is having complimentary talents to alter the playstyle of abilities granted by talents to balance them better, and the choice nodes give good exclusive options, like the frost mage talent lonely winter vs water elemental, pick one or the other.

I like the new system, it still needs some work and they need to stick to the philosophy of separating utility and throughput.

Im glad i wasnt the only one who noticed this. The part that makes this even worse is NOT ALL THE TREES DO THIS so there definitely will be clear classes that will have a straight advantage over others who only have output in their spec trees. And its not only just raid utility and cc in the some spec trees its also mobility in some cases. The biggest flaw of these trees are they are inconsistent as hell between classes and probably wont be fixed by launch

**Relapses** · 2022-08-04, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by oldgeezer

I'd like the game to have a 'default build' button for the newbies/lazy folks/world questers. (I fall in the latter two categories).

Just press it and the talents are filled automatically as you level. It doesn't need to be optimal, it just needs to give a basically functional build. I CBA with researching the new trees; it looks boring as all hell.

Uh, you can't be bothered to literally read what the talent does then choose which one you want to use? o_O

**khazmodan** · 2022-08-04, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by oldgeezer

I'd like the game to have a 'default build' button for the newbies/lazy folks/world questers. (I fall in the latter two categories).

Just press it and the talents are filled automatically as you level. It doesn't need to be optimal, it just needs to give a basically functional build. I CBA with researching the new trees; it looks boring as all hell.

I can definitely understand your point but the problem is what you said at the end "it looks boring as all hell", if Blizzard can't make it look fun to figure out, then the goal of bringing in new players is dead and WoW will continue its death spiral.

**Xilurm** · 2022-08-04, 06:44 AM

Then spend 10 mins doing that and leave the people that wanna feel like they are playing an RPG do exactly that.

**wargonmon** · 2022-08-04, 07:16 AM

I am sick and tired of all thise hate.
I like that they added this back. I love options,Why is it people are afraid of anything a 4 year old can not master in 2 minutes.
I love vanila,TBC,WOTLK, for the talent tree, the options and the build you can do. sure " Increase you chance to hit with frost spells 1/3 by 1% " is not a interesting talent, but other ones are more cool. and it feels nice when you can go " So i know X is the best, but i honestly prefer Y "

**Celement** · 2022-08-04, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Relapses

This is pretty different from Covenants, though I do understand a bit of the cynicism. It does give us the potential for more choices which, like I said, is generally a good thing.

I can't really see it that was but I might just be to used to the same pattern repeating itself. I never really understood blizzard fascination with pretend choices ( usually the choice is be effective or fail tightly tuned dps checks... corruption for example
Do 50% more total dmg or get 7% avoidance).

Wow keeps focusing more and more on its 3 pillars. Raiding, mythic plus, and pvp. Of the three only pvp through it's own talent systems has been able to provide meaningful choice. In pve I can't see a scenario where you are not set in stone.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Relapses

Uh, you can't be bothered to literally read what the talent does then choose which one you want to use? o_O

I've raided at the ce level for over a decade and I'm pretty sure at no point pre simplified tree could I tell you what my talents did beyond a few big ticket ones. It isnt really something you need to know they act in the backround.

**oldgeezer** · 2022-08-04, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by khazmodan

I can definitely understand your point but the problem is what you said at the end "it looks boring as all hell", if Blizzard can't make it look fun to figure out, then the goal of bringing in new players is dead and WoW will continue its death spiral.

That's it in a nutshell. It doesn't look fun to me. Fillers aren't fun. Choosing (what should be) baseline abilities isn't fun. Adding complexity for the sake of it is poor game design.

**mysticx** · 2022-08-04, 08:19 AM

I don't understand all the hate, it makes it a bit more involved and interesting (I need those few talents, how do i get to them?) for those who care, and the people who don't care just go to Icy Veins or whatever to look up what's the basic setup, like they do with the current talent system as well, so no real change there.

**Orby** · 2022-08-04, 08:29 AM

I love talent trees. But I also didn't mind the column system WoW had either (except when they were introduced I didn't like them, but I got used to it over time), the only issue with the column system which was it felt like a dumbed down version of the Diablo 3 system and the fact that there wasnt enough columns to warrant the amount of levels (that being 110 at the time), but even with the reduction back to level 60 the column still few very few.

What I loved about the original talent trees was that it gave you something to do every level. Sure it was an illusion of choice, but it felt rewarding still. I loved having to level for that extra point to spend. Yes they were cookie cutter and they had their own issues, but as I said I just love talent trees. and I do hope these new ones will have more varied choice instead of one build to rule them all. :P

The problem with MMO's and any online game is that there is always going to be a meta, there is always going to be one way. unless those talents provide cosmetic only things thing there is no other way to make them experimental.

**Lahis** · 2022-08-04, 08:37 AM