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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoSul View Post
    Im glad i wasnt the only one who noticed this. The part that makes this even worse is NOT ALL THE TREES DO THIS so there definitely will be clear classes that will have a straight advantage over others who only have output in their spec trees. And its not only just raid utility and cc in the some spec trees its also mobility in some cases. The biggest flaw of these trees are they are inconsistent as hell between classes and probably wont be fixed by launch
    yeah i noticed that too. some specs have great spec trees that are all focused on dps gameplay with no traps, then shadow is flooded with utility options (counted 10 non combat related talents as of writing this) that mean either lower damage in pvp or lower utility in pve since the end result will be balanced around the best options.

    I hope its fixed after some iteration because the way it is currently seems like they completely forgot years of balance lessons (dont make dps players pick between performance and utility)

  2. #62
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Why bring it back now?
    Because for the past 10 years, everyone and their mother has been saying the classic system was way better, and blizzard listened.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    The new talent system isn't punishing enough. There should be more tough choices and you shouldn't be able to swap between multiple builds on the fly. Part of playing a RPG is making a build that works good enough for all the things you want to do, not being able to have access to everything whenever you feel like it.
    I tend to agree that if you can swap at any time this is all pretty pointless and they should just get rid of customization like this entirely and give us solid core kits.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    I can definitely understand your point but the problem is what you said at the end "it looks boring as all hell", if Blizzard can't make it look fun to figure out, then the goal of bringing in new players is dead and WoW will continue its death spiral.
    Back in Wrath I had a friend who so very much enjoyed doing weird hybrid specs. I was never into that, I wanted to be optimal, not experiment fun suboptimal specs. Nowadays, I don't have the reccommend spec because of the ppl I play with. What I have I consider optimal for that and doesn't match written stuff. For example, if you have a frost mage always, you don't need a slow. If your party never interrupts, you have to spec into interrupting more.

    But planning this kind of thing is not enjoyable for me. It's one thing to pick heal party vs slow and another to go down trees and figure out which defensive passive talent I would rather give up to be able to pick my dispell back.

    Point is - big trees are not everyone's cup of tea.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2022-08-04 at 12:07 PM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    you need to make choices.

    Good thing you can save unlimited number of builds to a drop down menu and change between them in a single click.
    Don't you think that is a bit of a contradiction? Wheres the meaningful choice if you can just switch them with a single click?

  6. #66
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Don't you think that is a bit of a contradiction? Wheres the meaningful choice if you can just switch them with a single click?
    You can have every ability unlocked all the time. Hence you need to make choices. Poor, pointless talent system would just unlock every ability in the end.

    But preparing different builds for different situations and switching between them is also made easy enough so that you can actually use the system for its full potential and make ST nuke build for one boss, AoE cleave build for other and gimmicky survival build for that third one you have that weird cheese strategy for.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    The new talent system isn't punishing enough. There should be more tough choices and you shouldn't be able to swap between multiple builds on the fly. Part of playing a RPG is making a build that works good enough for all the things you want to do, not being able to have access to everything whenever you feel like it.
    Taps the covenant threads. Every person is capable of learning take a moment to reflect on past mistakes to lead you onwards to a brighter future.

  8. #68
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oKURWAmon View Post
    I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?
    Why do you care?

    Seriously. Why?

    Most people who hated the talent trees looked up the "best" build on places like icy veins anyways; which is exactly what they do today even with the supposedly better talent tree.

    I hate to be the bearer of information that you weren't aware of, but there are actually a lot of players that aren't like you. Not all of the player base just blindly looks up the "best" build and runs with it. Plenty like to do odd builds that they find works better for them or just because they want to. What do you have against people just wanting to play the game in a slightly different way than you do?

    In the end:
    - Lazy players will still just look up the "best" build just like today - the new trees won't change this
    - Serious raiding and M+ guilds will force players to use "best" builds just like today - the new trees won't change this
    - Casual guild and players will have the option to play around and make their toons more customized - something that can't happen today

    The new trees are a win except to those that demand that there is only ever one answer to all problems.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Why do you care?

    Seriously. Why?

    Most people who hated the talent trees looked up the "best" build on places like icy veins anyways; which is exactly what they do today even with the supposedly better talent tree.

    I hate to be the bearer of information that you weren't aware of, but there are actually a lot of players that aren't like you. Not all of the player base just blindly looks up the "best" build and runs with it. Plenty like to do odd builds that they find works better for them or just because they want to. What do you have against people just wanting to play the game in a slightly different way than you do?

    In the end:
    - Lazy players will still just look up the "best" build just like today - the new trees won't change this
    - Serious raiding and M+ guilds will force players to use "best" builds just like today - the new trees won't change this
    - Casual guild and players will have the option to play around and make their toons more customized - something that can't happen today

    The new trees are a win except to those that demand that there is only ever one answer to all problems.
    I like customization generally, but at this point the customization in wow seems to cause nothing but problems. We should get rid of it entirely.

    It’s just a chore when you are always expected to be Meta.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean... this is the covenant argument again. We already know how this ends including you. Specs will have maybe a mythic plus build and raid build (I assume people who can drop interupts will).

    I just think the player base grew up past talent trees that act as noob traps and would be served better by more tightly tuned specs then the illusion of choice.
    Not really, and you know why? Because it's not an external system but it's baked into your class. Nothing can stop cookie.sutter build to exist, this way everyone can use that OR another one that is more niche but better suited for a specific situation. Given also you can save unlimited templates and swap them on the fly without restriction, it's exactly the opposite of the covenant situation. People didn't complain about the lack of choice, they complained that due to different content = different builds and balance changes on top, Covenants were just crated a lot of unnecessary attrition. Which you don't have with the new talent trees.

    The Vanilla trees were basically passives all around wth very little choice - which translated into the MoP talents that removed all the fluff and made cookie-cutter builds just much easier to understand and create. The new trees actually add different choices and a lot of things you would like to get are not in your reach.

    What i expect is that people and theorycrafters will come up with a handful of builds that cover different situations and you will want to use them all, instead of having one that does basically everything if possible. Hell, just the fact i can play a dance outlaw rogue that brings raid utility, or can conceive a danceless sub build all based on shadow/magic damage and Gloomblade is awesome. I know already they will probably "won't work" but in the end it's just a matter of numbers - if there was a talent that gave you 100k dps, everyone would take it. But it's still nice to have the option in solo play to dabble into meme builds just for the sake of it and still have a playable class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It’s just a chore when you are always expected to be Meta.
    It's a player problem, not a game problem. There's a degree of truth in it, but if people can carry their weight and things get done, it's fine. For once, simulations now have a reason to be used in a compelling way and not just to tell me "this piece gives you .2% damage".
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  11. #71
    Don't really understand why some people have a problem with it. At the end of the day you'll do the same thing - look up the best combination and apply it in game, didn't they say you can even save the preset to apply with a click?

    As far as balancing work, not really, many of the talents are just stuff stripped away from the classes, sounds dumb, but the illusion of choice is actually fun, because there is never a choice if you care about minmax. It's probably a lot more work to come up with shitsystem iteration 4 that goes away next expansion.

    If you feel it's overwhelming to grasp a talent list (which is not) then just don't, look it up and apply whatever you find.

  12. #72
    I think the spec trees are mostly fine other than some tuning and placement issues.

    The class trees are total mess. The druid one is just garbage imo and offers little to no choice. Some are okayish since they focus more on just utility choices deeper in the tree. But all around I think the class tree needs a significant rework or just to be pulled.

  13. #73
    Serious question: Have you played around with any of the beta talent calculators? I was playing with the priest one for awhile last night as I plan on going back to priest for Dragonflight, and almost all of the talents in the builds I was messing with were pretty meaningful. They may be passive and boring like X ability does 10% more damage, but that kinda does actually change the play style. I can build out a disc priest to be more direct healing/holy focused, or more damage/atonement/shadow focused. It's almost like there are sub-specs for disc, and maybe the currently talent system also somewhat does this, but not to the extent that the tree does it.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    It's a player problem, not a game problem. There's a degree of truth in it, but if people can carry their weight and things get done, it's fine. For once, simulations now have a reason to be used in a compelling way and not just to tell me "this piece gives you .2% damage".
    Controlling how players act is part of game design.

    For half of players, which is the half that does little to no content like normal+ raids, mythic+ dungeons, or rated pvp, these tools will be some fun to mess around with. For the other half that does those activities, customization ends up mostly being an annoyance that other people dictate to you anyway.

    I'm very casual these days, so I'll have fun playing with them, but ultimately I'm getting kind of tired or the problems that get caused by customization, like imbalance and clunky toolkits.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Compher View Post
    Serious question: Have you played around with any of the beta talent calculators? I was playing with the priest one for awhile last night as I plan on going back to priest for Dragonflight, and almost all of the talents in the builds I was messing with were pretty meaningful. They may be passive and boring like X ability does 10% more damage, but that kinda does actually change the play style. I can build out a disc priest to be more direct healing/holy focused, or more damage/atonement/shadow focused. It's almost like there are sub-specs for disc, and maybe the currently talent system also somewhat does this, but not to the extent that the tree does it.
    Issue is not all of them are like that, and in some cases you have to lose a lot of stuff you have now to get things, which feels pretty bad.

  16. #76
    Blizzard is doing what they always do, giving players less flexibility and power but putting it in a deceptive package looking like you are getting more.

    In TBC, characters had 61 talent points to assign across all specs and that determined which "spec" your class was.
    All classes had the same baseline abilities no matter what spec you decided to spend talent points on.
    But notice that at level 70 in TBC you had 61 talent points to spend.


    https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/...43253213525155

    Now with the new talent trees for DragonFlight, we still are only getting 61 total talent points, even though our characters are technically 60 levels higher than TBC. So they are giving us less than even the 61 talents of TBC, because baseline stuff is being included in the tree so technically you really are only getting about 40 actual talent points to choose from. Then, of that, most of the talents are the same old talents from before, with very few actual new talents. Keeping in mind that you only get to spend those in one spec and are not able to mix and match talents across specs. Then none of the lowest tier "choices" have the same impact as those from the vanilla tree IMO.

    https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/warrior/arms

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Because for the past 10 years, everyone and their mother has been saying the classic system was way better, and blizzard listened.
    AFAIK there wasn't a huge push for moving back to Vanilla talents. The MoP revised talent trees were fine; I think the biggest issue was that in Legion they kind of deferred some power of the talent trees into Artifact Weapons then tried unsuccessfully to redistribute that power back into other failed systems in the expansions that followed. This kind of seems like a compromise between the two design philosophies and as such has people on both ends of the spectrum upset that it's either "too complicated," "not complicated enough" or "completely pointless" (see OP).

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by oKURWAmon View Post
    I absolutely despise talent tress for the following reason:

    1) You need to look up the randomly designed singular motherfucking path and progress along in order to be able to unlock the one ability you like.

    2) It's cluttered as fuck: too many choices and you always feel like fuck I'm missing one of my most important abilities now!

    3) It's a nightmare to balance! 38 specs and 13 class trees on top of it: Just how the absolute fuck does Blizzard expect to keep them balanced?

    4) Players literally forced to always change talent points now. On a per pull basis. Imagine the time it takes to re-talent every single fucking button you have in raids.

    5) Imagine the time and resources this clusterfuck takes away which could be spent on other areas of the game. Every time I open up WoWHead I'm bombarded with a FULL PAGE of class and spec talent changes now. Who the fuck even cares? Just give us the tools to play our class and spec and be done with it.

    And the list goes on and on.

    I was so happy when MoP finally removed this talent tree bullshit. Why bring it back now?
    I love talent trees, I dislike these talent trees. I feel like instead of doing complete overhauls on the classes defining their baseline tool kit and then building talent trees around those they just randomly took things away from the player and randomly put them into the talent trees and now you have to play whack a mole to try and get back everything you lost. WOTLK talent trees would have been perfect IMO but we got this trash and on top of that a commitment about release that pretty much guarantees they won't have enough time to reiterate on the system many times over to get it right.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Not really, and you know why? Because it's not an external system but it's baked into your class. Nothing can stop cookie.sutter build to exist, this way everyone can use that OR another one that is more niche but better suited for a specific situation. Given also you can save unlimited templates and swap them on the fly without restriction, it's exactly the opposite of the covenant situation. People didn't complain about the lack of choice, they complained that due to different content = different builds and balance changes on top, Covenants were just crated a lot of unnecessary attrition. Which you don't have with the new talent trees.

    The Vanilla trees were basically passives all around wth very little choice - which translated into the MoP talents that removed all the fluff and made cookie-cutter builds just much easier to understand and create. The new trees actually add different choices and a lot of things you would like to get are not in your reach.

    What i expect is that people and theorycrafters will come up with a handful of builds that cover different situations and you will want to use them all, instead of having one that does basically everything if possible. Hell, just the fact i can play a dance outlaw rogue that brings raid utility, or can conceive a danceless sub build all based on shadow/magic damage and Gloomblade is awesome. I know already they will probably "won't work" but in the end it's just a matter of numbers - if there was a talent that gave you 100k dps, everyone would take it. But it's still nice to have the option in solo play to dabble into meme builds just for the sake of it and still have a playable class.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's a player problem, not a game problem. There's a degree of truth in it, but if people can carry their weight and things get done, it's fine. For once, simulations now have a reason to be used in a compelling way and not just to tell me "this piece gives you .2% damage".
    It's just... I can't see it being used. Even now players use raid specs for the open world and leveling even when they are usually the worse talents for it.

    You can never go home or cross the same river twice. If you try it everything will have changed and seem so very small.

    I understand your desire though it's one I know....

  20. #80
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    The trees are great. Not perfect, but a step in the right direction for build diversity.

    My only gripe with the talent trees is that we aren't getting mechanical overhauls of the specs. For the most part, the devs are just using existing permanent and borrowed abilities from the current game. I was kind of hoping that more classes would get spells similar to Evoker, or maybe some swingtimer-based abilities (like seal-twisting). With the UI overhaul, now would be the perfect time to add a baseline swingtimer.

    The trees are still a huge leap forward. The old system was too simple, while the endless borrowed powers were confusing to manage. Now they can keep the complexity in the trees and gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    It's just... I can't see it being used. Even now players use raid specs for the open world and leveling even when they are usually the worse talents for it.
    The new system will have savable builds, which should make it easier to swap. I have an addon that does the same thing in classic, makes respeccing a 3-click investment instead of 60.

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