Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Orby]

I really like this video. Which displays my opinions clearly. There are good reasons people can be sceptical about the show and bad reasons.

All of my reasons fall in the good reasons. Most importantly the first 3 :P

[VMSmith]

MMOC's woke mob is quite quick to label everyone a witch

Hey, I said those things! Cool.

But if you identified with those statements, that's kinda on you lol The rest of the words around these bits don't reflect reality, though, I'm afraid.

Then again, you also say things like "woke mob," so that tells me to just not bother.

Just wait for it to come out, bro. Then you can have a little cry about it if you need to.

You are the worst mind-reader, ever. And thanks for proving my point about how quick you folk are to deride anyone that deviates even a tiny bit from your orthodoxy.

You are welcome to the last word, as I'll be ignoring you now and focusing on the people that bring an actual interesting conversation to the topic.

On that note:

A new Amzaon prime video discussing more about the upcoming adaptation and how it is now "inspired" by Tolkien but not literally an adaptation of Tolkien

That makes a lot more sense, as the show does seem to be much more of an "inspired by" show than a "this is actually part of the story now" thing. I'm sure some will enjoy it, but it doesn't really look like anything I'll be much interested in at this point.

I'm not sure how I feel about Amazon as a content creation outlet. So far the only thing I've truly enjoyed by them has been "Good Omens". I tried Invincible and Vox Machina but neither one really suits my interests, though both seemed well done. And while I enjoyed the first season of The Boys, there's just something about the gratuitousness and level of parody of it that doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not really much of a tv/film watcher, so maybe there's more out there on Prime that would appeal to me if I really looked. The last thing I watched on Prime was a documentary about the D&D artists. I've never read Wheel of Time so I might be able to enjoy that without any preconceptions.

[bledgor]

I'm not really much of a tv/film watcher, so maybe there's more out there on Prime that would appeal to me if I really looked. The last thing I watched on Prime was a documentary about the D&D artists. I've never read Wheel of Time so I might be able to enjoy that without any preconceptions.

Even non book reader friends have told me it is meh, 5 if they are feeling very nice 6/10 fantasy, I wouldn't recommend.

[VMSmith]

Even non book reader friends have told me it is meh, 5 if they are feeling very nice 6/10 fantasy, I wouldn't recommend.

Thanks for the heads-up. I've really been in a mood for some fantasy shows, so that's why I've been considering giving it a try, but the resounding disappointment by the fans of the book has had me leery. I may have to try at least one episode just to satiate my curiosity, but I'll go into it not expecting something stunning.

I really miss things like Dragonslayer and Legend, fantasy that wasn't ashamed to be fantastic and didn't feel a need for grittiness or realism. They knew they were fantasy and dragons and goblins and such and just leaned into it and enjoyed it.

[Biomega]

I really miss things like Dragonslayer and Legend, fantasy that wasn't ashamed to be fantastic and didn't feel a need for grittiness or realism. They knew they were fantasy and dragons and goblins and such and just leaned into it and enjoyed it.

No realism or grit in a 2022 TV show?

SURELY YOU'RE JOKING.

Haven't you heard, unless literally everything is Game of Thrones now, it won't make any money!

[Corvus]

Among the worst parts of Jackson's movies was the over the top elf wuxia performed by Legolas, that got worse and worse with each movie. Sadly, it looks like Amazon thought it was kewl and is going all Galadriel Warrior Princess.

[VMSmith]

No realism or grit in a 2022 TV show?

SURELY YOU'RE JOKING.

Haven't you heard, unless literally everything is Game of Thrones now, it won't make any money!

There's also the "everything about this is funny" approach, which I'm somewhat worried about with the D&D movie.

The fantasy films of the 70s and 80s just had such an earnestness about them that feels lacking in the more modern fare. Hell, I even miss things like Dragonheart, which was pretty cheesy.

The Lord of the Rings movies were really the last fantasy films I find that I've enjoyed. Fantasy offerings since then just haven't really appealed to me.

[Biomega]

There's also the "everything about this is funny" approach, which I'm somewhat worried about with the D&D movie.

The fantasy films of the 70s and 80s just had such an earnestness about them that feels lacking in the more modern fare. Hell, I even miss things like Dragonheart, which was pretty cheesy.

The Lord of the Rings movies were really the last fantasy films I find that I've enjoyed. Fantasy offerings since then just haven't really appealed to me.

It is kind of weird, isn't it, that as special-effects technology has gotten better, the quality of fantasy movies in particular seems to have gone down dramatically. They hardly ever make unabashedly fantasy movies anyway, it's all preteeen/teenage franchise stuff or some other kind of drama-in-a-fantasy-dressing. And of course the dark, gritty, "look guys, GoT was kind of a money-spinner right?" material.

Maybe it's not the time anymore, who knows.

[Ihavewaffles]

Lulz

[haediff]

I don't see an issue with this, personally.

Might look a bit dumb, but this is just action in 2022.

It's really not "action in 2022." Go watch a good movie or TV show from this era and the action sequences look real. They might as well have not edited out the ropes pulling her into the air. Looks like shit.

[rogoth]

I don't particularly care about "the last word." I literally just pointed out that you painted yourself with whatever brush you think I was holding lol

Nowhere have I said people can't have opinions. The typical opinion in this sub-forum just happens to be a series of the usual garbage. I'm more of a "wait and see" kinda guy, myself. I'm not about to cry over something I have yet to see. Again, people literally had to debate blades and scissors...

Ignoring people to "focusing on the people that bring an actual interesting conversation to the topic" is just your way of running away from something lol Again, you painted yourself with that brush, not me.

God, I'd love to know what my orthodoxy is, though. Is it something beyond "wait and see"?

that's fine, good for you, i have a question for you then, lets assume for a second that the show flops and is everything that me and others have 'complained about', would you then come back here and apologise to those of us who under this assumption have every right to say 'i told you so'?, or are you too prideful to admit when you're wrong?, because i will be watching this shitshow unfold and IF they have somehow made something that is the antithesis of the marketing material they have pushed out and is actually something decent, then i will happily apologise for my preconceived notions, working under the opposite assumption that the show is a good show, i somehow highly doubt you have the moral decency or the spine to admit you're wrong because you and everyone else who is labelling people with the ists and phobes and isms tags because it's easier to that than actually engage in a meaningful discussion these days.

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Among the worst parts of Jackson's movies was the over the top elf wuxia performed by Legolas, that got worse and worse with each movie. Sadly, it looks like Amazon thought it was kewl and is going all Galadriel Warrior Princess.

and the reason why very few people (you are likely one of only a handful) actually care about any of that is because it happened in a few scenes over the course of HOURS of overall movie footage, the whole super elf legolas portion could probably be summarised into maybe 5-10 minutes of total on screen time, out of a trilogy of movies with a combined runtime over well over 12 hours, unlike this current excuse for a show, which is putting that whole concept front and center main character material, where the entire show will be this, and that's the difference, if it needed to be spelled out for you then it's not surprising why you're still hung up on something that most fans have disregarded as anything more than artistic license.

[Adamas102]

that's fine, good for you, i have a question for you then, lets assume for a second that the show flops and is everything that me and others have 'complained about', would you then come back here and apologise to those of us who under this assumption have every right to say 'i told you so'?

The show isn't going to flop because of any of the crap that people in this thread have been bitching about (casting minorities, action oriented focus on Galadriel, condensed timeline, haircuts, interviews with the showrunners, etc). Believe it or not, the vast majority of people who are going to check out this show aren't coming in with some preconceived notion of how the appendices at the back of the book the probably didn't read should be adapted. They're going to see that the tone and aesthetics match the popular movies that they watched and that there's a recognizable character that bridges things together.

Even if they made the show 100% true to every detail in the source material, it could still flop if things like plot, pacing, acting, and writing make it a boring slog. These are the things that make or break shows. Not dark skinned hobbits and female warriors. If the story is well told with understandable character motivations and arcs, good pacing, clear stakes, captivating plot and action, then it doesn't matter how many people cry about "not MY Galadriel", it's going to do just fine. If it lacks the fundamental principles that make for a good narrative (something that Tolkien didn't leave behind for this part of his work), then it may well fail.

[Biomega]

Even if they made the show 100% true to every detail in the source material, it could still flop if things like plot, pacing, acting, and writing make it a boring slog. These are the things that make or break shows. Not dark skinned hobbits and female warriors.

While I would definitely agree with this in principle, there DOES exist a correlation between representational casting and bad writing - just not in the way the "anti-woke" crowd thinks. It's not that having PoC or women actors or whatever lowers the quality; they can and do make for perfectly fine actors, and there's absolutely a need to diversify roles more. The problem is with the writers and producers, who far too often tend to think that diversity = quality, and that if they just write/cast diverse enough, that's a substitute for good writing/casting in and of itself. Which is patently untrue, and actually counterproductive, even insulting, to the goal of normalizing diversity.

"We cast some black people and women, therefore the show must be good; and if you disagree, you're just a bigot who hates diversity!" seems to be an implicit, unspoken verdict that hangs over far too many projects. Which is NOT how you do diversity OR quality right. Of course, the same holds in reverse: "They cast a bunch of black people and women, therefore the show must suck; and if you disagree, you're just a woke libtard!" is equally untrue, and both damaging and unhelpful.

At the end of the day, bad writing is bad writing. THAT is what I'm afraid of for the show more than anything.

[Adamas102]

The problem is with the writers and producers, who far too often tend to think that diversity = quality, and that if they just write/cast diverse enough, that's a substitute for good writing/casting in and of itself.

Soooo, you think good writers just decide to phone it in when casting (a completely different production group) makes their casting choices? Even though much of the writing usually comes well before casting? Seems like a stretch…

Even ignoring that little detail, this is in the context of fantasy races which have no connection to our real world races. The character of Arondil is a Sylvanas elf, just like Tauriel. Whether he’s played by a black Englishman, white New Zealander, or (in this case) a Puerto Rican doesn’t really have any bearing on how he’s written. He’s just an elf.

The only example that really comes to mind is the Ghostbusters movie that tried to bank on its cast ad libbing through the movie without a decent script, but at the same time comedians like Will Ferrell and Zack Galifianakis have had their fair share of movies bomb by doing the same. Lazy writers are just lazy regardless of what gender/race they’re writing for.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Soooo, you think good writers just decide to phone it in when casting (a completely different production group) makes their casting choices? Even though much of the writing usually comes well before casting? Seems like a stretch…

Given the amount of times this sort of thing has come up in threads about various shows it’s pretty clear that some people think that having X minority cast for a roll means that role only exist because they wanted a minority not because they could have been a good actor who just so happens to fit.

Pretty much only the white actors can get by on skill while the minority’s are only there so “people can’t call it back without being labeled racist” or “to fit a quota”.

[Biomega]

Soooo, you think good writers just decide to phone it in when casting (a completely different production group) makes their casting choices?

No I don't. I never said as much or suggested anything of the kind.

Even though much of the writing usually comes well before casting? Seems like a stretch…

It seems like a stretch because you decided to go from what I said - "writers and producers" - to just "writers".

Even ignoring that little detail, this is in the context of fantasy races which have no connection to our real world races. The character of Arondil is a Sylvanas elf, just like Tauriel. Whether he’s played by a black Englishman, white New Zealander, or (in this case) a Puerto Rican doesn’t really have any bearing on how he’s written. He’s just an elf.

And that's nothing CLOSE to what I'm talking about.

To use your example, they would take the character Arondil, do a shoddy job writing the story he's involved in, then cast a Puerto Rican and deflect any criticism about the WRITING with a misdirect about the CASTING; or, conversely, critics would use the casting to justify criticism about the writing. Neither is acceptable, because they're both category errors. Writing can (and should) be criticized, and casting can (and should) be criticized, but one does not substitute for the other in either the positive or the negative.

[rogoth]

Given the amount of times this sort of thing has come up in threads about various shows it’s pretty clear that some people think that having X minority cast for a roll means that role only exist because they wanted a minority not because they could have been a good actor who just so happens to fit.

Pretty much only the white actors can get by on skill while the minority’s are only there so “people can’t call it back without being labeled racist” or “to fit a quota”.

except Amazon HAS A POLICY EXPLICITLY DETAILING IT'S MANDATORY TO HAVE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE MINORITY GROUPS CAST REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY FIT THE NARRATIVE OR NOT, and out of the entire 'main' cast of people, not one of them has any major acting credits to their name, they are either completely unknown, or they have had bit parts as extras/small indie projects, i would genuinely be surprised if any of them were better quality than some of the people were reported to have auditioned for these roles when they were doing the acting cast calls back in 2018, but please, tell me how all of these actors are somehow amazing at their job without having much or any prior experience?

[Adamas102]

No I don't. I never said as much or suggested anything of the kind.

I mean, you kinda did by suggesting that there is at least a not-insignificant number of writers and producers who consider diversity to be a substitute for good writing.

"writers and producers, who far too often tend to think that diversity = quality, and that if they just write/cast diverse enough, that's a substitute for good writing/casting in and of itself."

Not specifically for this show, but just in general. Writing good movies/shows isn't easy to begin with (and even great shows can have poorly written scenes/episodes) so even just making the suggestion that a poorly written script can be directly linked to people just phoning it in because of diverse casting choices just reeks of scapegoating minorities.

It seems like a stretch because you decided to go from what I said - "writers and producers" - to just "writers".

Yeah, there is sometimes overlap between the roles, but the whole thing still just seems super convoluted (bordering on conspiracy theory). Outside of having a singular producer who also does the bulk of the writing and is known to be fully in control of the casting process, the suggestion is that a team of professionals who generally handle different parts of the production simply decides to dump millions of dollars into work they know is shoddy just because they apparently believe that the skin color of their actors will make up for it. It's just kinda silly to think that's how movies/shows get made on a regular basis.

And that's nothing CLOSE to what I'm talking about.

To use your example, they would take the character Arondil, do a shoddy job writing the story he's involved in, then cast a Puerto Rican and deflect any criticism about the WRITING with a misdirect about the CASTING; or, conversely, critics would use the casting to justify criticism about the writing. Neither is acceptable, because they're both category errors. Writing can (and should) be criticized, and casting can (and should) be criticized, but one does not substitute for the other in either the positive or the negative.

Again it leans on the super convoluted idea of the creators all agreeing behind closed doors "we did a bad job writing this, we KNOW we did a bad job writing it, we aren't going to fix it, instead we'll just put pressure on casting to cover it up by hiring a minority". Even the worst directors and writers think they're hot shit, so why does bad writing have to be anything but just bad writing? The only deflecting that is obvious is people trying to blame all the stuff they don't like on the dreaded "diversity agenda".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

except Amazon HAS A POLICY EXPLICITLY DETAILING IT'S MANDATORY TO HAVE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE MINORITY GROUPS CAST REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY FIT THE NARRATIVE OR NOT, and out of the entire 'main' cast of people, not one of them has any major acting credits to their name, they are either completely unknown, or they have had bit parts as extras/small indie projects, i would genuinely be surprised if any of them were better quality than some of the people were reported to have auditioned for these roles when they were doing the acting cast calls back in 2018, but please, tell me how all of these actors are somehow amazing at their job without having much or any prior experience?

Don't know about amazon's policy's, don't care. I'm talking in a general sense which is why I said various shows and not just ring of power or amazon shows.

as to actors not being any good at there jobs if they don't have any major acting credits all I can say is that it's an incredibly ignorant stance to have given how many actors go from nobody's/indie's/extras to being big names regularly

[rogoth]

The show isn't going to flop because of any of the crap that people in this thread have been bitching about (casting minorities, action oriented focus on Galadriel, condensed timeline, haircuts, interviews with the showrunners, etc). Believe it or not, the vast majority of people who are going to check out this show aren't coming in with some preconceived notion of how the appendices at the back of the book the probably didn't read should be adapted. They're going to see that the tone and aesthetics match the popular movies that they watched and that there's a recognizable character that bridges things together.

Even if they made the show 100% true to every detail in the source material, it could still flop if things like plot, pacing, acting, and writing make it a boring slog. These are the things that make or break shows. Not dark skinned hobbits and female warriors. If the story is well told with understandable character motivations and arcs, good pacing, clear stakes, captivating plot and action, then it doesn't matter how many people cry about "not MY Galadriel", it's going to do just fine. If it lacks the fundamental principles that make for a good narrative (something that Tolkien didn't leave behind for this part of his work), then it may well fail.

since it's been well established you're an apologist for this type of bullshit media propaganda, here's some data for you:

as of writing this the newest trailer video they released on the main prime video youtube channel has 11M total views, out of that, only 76k people 'liked' the video, even if you account for margins of error that is some of the worst 'positive audience engagement' figures for a major company in the history of youtube and thanks to youtube wanting to shield their big corp brethren by disabling the dislike counter from view, the addon that helps to give a rough estimate based on multiple metrics for measuring data shows a dislike value far in excess of quadruple the 'likes' counter, and even ignoring the 10's of thousands of comments just slating the video and/or meme'ing the video, nobody wants this product outside of you and the rest of the minority singing their praises, even looking at the heavily censored original 'teaser' video from months ago, which is now sitting at just under 31M total views, has a 'like' counter of 129k, based on this data alone, it shows the trend that the people who actually want this project and who are looking forward to it are in the absolute minority, and that in fact the majority of people don't care about it, don't want it, and would prefer if it simply didn't exist, but i'm sure you're going to twist these words of mine like you have done now multiple times to me and seem to do with reckless abandon to anybody else who criticises you and/or this project.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't know about amazon's policy's, don't care. I'm talking in a general sense which is why I said various shows and not just ring of power or amazon shows.

as to actors not being any good at there jobs if they don't have any major acting credits all I can say is that it's an incredibly ignorant stance to have given how many actors go from nobody's/indie's/extras to being big names regularly

those actors are usually the ones who are part of a project that also contains main A-list actors who are cast as the main characters and the unknown/indie actor comes in as a pseudo main character and does a good enough job to set themselves off onto a trajectory of superstardom, not a single movie/tv show that has cast EVERY main character as an unknown/indie actor has ever done well to my knowledge, if you can provide an example i'll happily go and watch it to make my own mind up on it but i don't know of a single big budget production where the main cast are all unknown nobodies or bit part actors with barely any major roles to their names.

and the whole point regarding the miscasting of the dwarven race and elven race is to highlight that the policy Amazon has in place which mandates hiring minority representatives regardless of whether they are fit for the role means that it's likely other production firms have the same or a similar policy, and Amazon faced immense backlash at the time when this policy was made public as it was something that was never meant to be public knowledge.

you can dislike and argue with my or anyone else's opinions on things, but you can't dismiss facts and as long as these moronic mandated diversity policies exist, there is always going to be problems with projects and how they are perceived.