Should flex mythic raiding exist in DF?

[skajaki]

As a member of a AoTC guild I feel like our guild is slowly dieing with each patch due to the lack of content and rewards there is from raiding atm.
There's no incentative to do HC for gear due to M+, and after getting the achievement we have no reason to go back. This leads to people taking a break and/or quitting the game. And when the next raid patch comes out, we have to try to recruit good people once again and so on, making it a part-time job to maintain the roster.

If we had flex mythic raids as a possibility more players would be able to progress the raid on a higher difficulty, get some item upgrades depending on what the vault didn't deliver, get new and (often) cooler transmog, and mount. It would also be easier for guilds to maintain a roster.

I understand the difficulties of imbalancing flex and 20man, but is that a good enough reason to locking a lot of guilds out from mythic raiding? And if so, why?
Is it due to the race? Make the race only count on 20man setup so no guild participating are allowed to do flex, or enable flex after the race is over.
Is it because we then require homogenization of classes? Lesser variants of buffs from profressions (scrolls), just as drums works today in relation to bloodlust.
Is it due to a specific setup of people is easier than 20man? Stacking class x for a fight could be comparable to reducing / increasing the size of the raid. And if that helps a guild, good for them!

Please keep the 'just get 20 ppl together' or similar comments out of this thread. That's clearly not an option for a lot of guilds today, and this thread is not about removing 20man mythic, its about enabling the difficulty to the many guilds that can't get 20 people together.

[Cracked]

Please keep the 'just get 20 ppl together' or similar comments out of this thread. That's clearly not an option for a lot of guilds today, and this thread is not about removing 20man mythic, its about enabling the difficulty to the many guilds that can't get 20 people together.

... Why? Assuming they take the hint from season 4 and mythic cross realm is available since day 1, given that factions are no longer a thing for the most part, what stops ANY guild from doing that?

[Usernameforforums]

Make rwf till first is done then unlock flex. They keep bragging about their sliders to tune content, it shouldn’t be that hard to flex tune now.

[roldy27]

I mean you listed some really good reasons not do it. I think blizzard should work on improving the incentives to raid heroic rather than ruin mythic. I also nowhere see an argument why getting 20 people to raid mythic is simply not an option. You could either add some people to your roster or add some pugs for early mythic bosses as long as blizzard just removes the restrictions for cross realm mythic.

[skajaki]

... Why? Assuming they take the hint from season 4 and mythic cross realm is available since day 1, given that factions are no longer a thing for the most part, what stops ANY guild from doing that?

The reasons why people can't do 20 man isn't always neccessarily related to recruitment and the pool of players to choose from. Some prefer not to play with larger groups, and some prefers play with larger than 20 man groups and not having to bench people. Giving people a larger pool to recruit from is probably gonna solve some things, but not everything. For my guild its not neccessarily about the pool of people we choose from. I'm sure we could find the extra x players we need to do mythic, but finding those people take time, and then maintaing the roster as people leave due to not getting a spot one night / bored of the game / whatever reason, is a part-time job. Sure, not everyone has this problem, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I mean you listed some really good reasons not do it. I think blizzard should work on improving the incentives to raid heroic rather than ruin mythic. I also nowhere see an argument why getting 20 people to raid mythic is simply not an option. You could either add some people to your roster or add some pugs for early mythic bosses as long as blizzard just removes the restrictions for cross realm mythic.

What do you mean by 'ruin mythic'? How would enabling other sizes than 20 ruin mythic (for you I assume)?
I mean, I clearly say that I don't think they should change 20 man Mythic. Just enable flex after some time, or let it be open at the side and be 'fake mythic' or whatever. Like whats the harm in that?
They don't need to increase the incentive to raid HC, its fine for what it is, the natural progression path is to go to the next difficutly, just as it is today for all guilds. The only thing restricting some guilds is that it requires a fixed number of players, making it more difficult for them to continue playing.

[Lolites]

What do you mean by 'ruin mythic'? How would enabling other sizes than 20 ruin mythic?

having flex size would mean every boss would be easier in certain size, and people would be benched for bosses where they are "over the limit"... especialy on bosses with important "Spread" mechanics
theres surely more reason, this is just first to come to mind...

[Loveliest]

... Why? Assuming they take the hint from season 4 and mythic cross realm is available since day 1, given that factions are no longer a thing for the most part, what stops ANY guild from doing that?

Guild. Guild. People are in guilds because they don't want pugs in their groups.

[Dahij]

Make rwf till first is done then unlock flex. They keep bragging about their sliders to tune content, it shouldn’t be that hard to flex tune now.

Haha, haven't you seen what a shitshow normal and HC are when it comes to tuning for flex? There's a reason they always need to retune different raid sizes because they can't get it right from the start and mythic raids would be even worse.

[Usernameforforums]

Haha, haven't you seen what a shitshow normal and HC are when it comes to tuning for flex? There's a reason they always need to retune different raid sizes because they can't get it right from the start and mythic raids would be even worse.

If you think tuning is so shit then why not suggest the return of 10/25?

[Glazey]

Another thread about flex for the hardest content. wooo

No. For every reason that's been said a million times;
Raids that scale are quickly trivialized.
Mythic is designed specifically with a composition of 20.

Mythic is not meant to be done by everyone. Mythic will stay as it is because it's simply the best way to handle it.

If a person wants to do Mythic, they'll join a guild that wants to do that content. If a guild wants to do Mythic, they'll field the roster of 20. Despite what you might think, but there are plenty of guilds recruiting for Mythic for newer players that want to break into that content.

[skajaki]

having flex size would mean every boss would be easier in certain size, and people would be benched for bosses where they are "over the limit"... especialy on bosses with important "Spread" mechanics
theres surely more reason, this is just first to come to mind...

I agree and can understand it when it comes to RWF. It should have a fixed size. But after that, who cares?
I have a hard time believing that Echo and Method players look down on other CE guilds for killing lesser versions of the boss months later when its been nerfed. So why would someone look down on someone killing a flex sized version of a boss. They could just as well be more difficult than a 20 man version, and even if not, it could at the time of the kill be significantly more difficult than a 20 man version of that boss months later.

Haha, haven't you seen what a shitshow normal and HC are when it comes to tuning for flex? There's a reason they always need to retune different raid sizes because they can't get it right from the start and mythic raids would be even worse.

Well, what is "right from the start" according to you? I mean, they generally retune things to be easier, a.k.a. nerfing, to make it beatable and more available to more players, including CE guilds.

[kiramon]

I have a hard time believing that Echo and Method players look down on other CE guilds for killing lesser versions of the boss months later when its been nerfed.

This has literally been a "thing" people have done since Vanilla...

[glowpipe]

Yes! Every single tier we start heroic with 19-20 people, and end it with 14-15. Now we have to sit on our asses until next tier or reclear heroic, which no one wants to. We want to start pushing into mythic raiding, but we never have the people, as recruiting in this game is satan tier trash. No proper tools to do so, hardly any players left and the few that are left just pug instead, as thats simpler now. And chat channels are spammed to death so recruiting is impossible. So instead we unsub until next tier, and everynew tier when we are supposed to resub for new content. we lost 1-2 players. Our guild has been pushing it since Legion, but i think DF gonna be our last expansion before we as a guild die.

If we could keep going mythic flex after clearing heroic. We would keep playing instead of unsubbing and loosing players

[saixilein]

Yes, because this focus on balancing makes the game worse. If there are mythic raid sizes that are harder/easier i really dont care.

[Asrialol]

This has literally been a "thing" people have done since Vanilla...

Lol what. You crazy.

[sensei-]

Yes, because this focus on balancing makes the game worse. If there are mythic raid sizes that are harder/easier i really dont care.

I’ve written in a number of threads how the entire focus on raids and mythic raids is a fool’s errand and a remnant of a bygone age. WoW has like 500 dungeons and raids that aren’t utilized at all. The entire game needs a revamp and reprioritization of goals and things to do. Use the existing content but make everything puggable until a certain difficulty slider. Hell, make raids soloable at the easiest level. WoW could be by far the greatest sandbox funpark with endless things to do and grind if the affix and random boss and scaling difficulty was applied everywhere. Instead we got 1 mythic raid that 0,5% of the community engages with and a mountain of abandoned zones and content.

[Jastall]

I'd rather unlock cross-ream from day 1, or at least a fixed deadline like 3 weeks after release, instead. Flex is too much of a can of worms to open I think.

[neescher]

having flex size would mean every boss would be easier in certain size, and people would be benched for bosses where they are "over the limit"... especialy on bosses with important "Spread" mechanics
theres surely more reason, this is just first to come to mind...

People said the same thing about other difficulties when they introduced flex raids. Did it ruin normal/heroic raids?

Nathria is way easier with a lot of players, and quite a bit harder if you go in only with 10-11 ppl. It didn't stop guilds from running it with small groups, if it means they didn't have to invite pugs.

Keep in mind, world first raiders will ALWAYS find ways to cheese stuff and take advantage of mechanics. So that shouldn't influence anything.

Some bosses will always have an "optimal" amount of people in flex raids, sure. But exactly why is this a problem? People/guilds that are more casual simply won't care, and they certainly won't kick people for certain bosses even if that would make it a bit easier. And "hardcore" raiders will just optimize anyway, for the greater good (ie. guild progress). If you're in one of those guilds and you don't like being benched for a boss so that the rest of the guild has an easier time, then you can always join a guild with like-minded people.

[jeezusisacasual]

I mean you listed some really good reasons not do it. I think blizzard should work on improving the incentives to raid heroic rather than ruin mythic. I also nowhere see an argument why getting 20 people to raid mythic is simply not an option. You could either add some people to your roster or add some pugs for early mythic bosses as long as blizzard just removes the restrictions for cross realm mythic.

They have every incentive to raid if thats what they want to do. Yes you get better gear once a week doing mythic plus but literally 1 piece a week or 4 months assuming no duplicates or bad luck. Heroic should be completed fairly quickly i would assuming maybe 5 weeks into a tier by a solid guild which still outpaces the gear gained by Mythic plus but the community needs to drop the efficiency mindset in a activity that is meant to waste your time. Also i tend to think this is a player lead problem since people in guilds tend to have a group of 5-7 or 5-8 that are very click like in nature which leads itself to mythic plus which kinda dispels the bigger is better mentality also.

[SinR]

Mythic is "Balanced" around 20 people.