[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[BloodyAngel12]

Ive fallen out of love with Marvel and Disney.

[Shadowferal]

My first comicbook;



I was too young to understand it well.

[SavoirFaire]

My first comicbook;

I was too young to understand it well.

Mine and for some time I thought JJJ knew who SpiderMan was and was messing with him after this issue. Back in the mail subscription days.

Edit: to hell with the link, it was amazing spider man 192

[Ghost of Cow]

Phase 5 movies:

Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania - February 17, 2023
GotG Vol 3 - May 5, 2023
The Marvels - July 28, 2023
Blade - November 3, 2023
Captain America: New World Order - May 3, 2024
Thunderbolts - July 26, 2024
Fantastic 4 - November 8, 2024
Avengers: The Kang Dynasty - May 2, 2025
Avengers: Secret Wars - November 7, 2025

Phase 5 tv shows:

Secret Invasion - March to May 2023
Echo - June to August 2023
Loki Season 2 - June to August 2023
Ironheart - September to November 2023
Agatha: Coven of Chaos - December to February 2023
Daredevil: Born Again - March to May 2024

the only unknown is that Marvel had something down for release on February 16, 2024 - maybe Deadpool 3?

Meh, that all just...doesn't look interesting at all.

GotG 3 and Blade maybe. If it's not happy fun time Blade because Disney or something.

[Biomega]

If it's not happy fun time Blade because Disney or something.

I guess there's been R-rated superhero successes, but it's a tough sell for shareholders when you start with "so you know all those teenagers emptying their wallets into our coffers, how about we make something they CAN'T watch...". Far from impossible of course - they know well how horizontal segmentation works, and the R-rated market is a market make no mistake about it. But it does make you a little bit anxious about things.

[VMSmith]

It featured Iron Man, Black Widow, Daredevil and the Thing.

The Thing was one of my favorites in the 80s! I feel like he's been so forgotten since then, but I enjoyed both the Thing limited series that spun out of Secret Wars and The Contest of Champions, which featured him as the only strong hero that could stand up to the Champion properly.

My first comic:

A kindred spirit... I am not alone!!! woooh :P

I still like Marvel and Disney, just not the MCU anymore

I also still like Marvel and have no ill will towards Disney. I even just subscribed to Marvel Unlimited for a year earlier this month. Like you, I'm just burned out on the MCU (and don't enjoy their current direction) and superhero visual entertainment for the most part, with few exceptions.

BTW, for anyone wanting to post a pic of their first or favorite comic that was published in the US, try grabbing the image from Mile High Comics and you'll likely find it plus it'll be on the smaller size like the one in this post.

[Shadowferal]

Edit: to hell with the link, it was amazing spider man 192

My first comic: .

I was amazed at how well written Micronauts was.

[eschatological]

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/she...ts-1235332644/

Interesting article here where the producers/actors in She-Hulk are basically admitting to the janky CGI. They say it's because Marvel is putting too much on the plates of their VFX guys and they just can't handle the workload at the price Marvel is paying them, so the actors/producers are kinda coming out against the studio in support of the team working on the effects.

I've read some articles from Defector, I believe, and this one at Vulture about the issue. I suppose this is the problem with having this massive cinematic and television universe which relies on effects so much. A quote from the Vulture article:

I remember going to a presentation by one of the other VFX houses about an early MCU movie, and people were talking about how they were getting “pixel-fucked.” That’s a term we use in the industry when the client will nitpick over every little pixel. Even if you never notice it. A client might say, “This is not exactly what I want,” and you keep working at it. But they have no idea what they want. So they’ll be like, “Can you just try this? Can you just try that?” They’ll want you to change an entire setting, an entire environment, pretty late in a movie.

The main problem is most of Marvel’s directors aren’t familiar with working with visual effects. A lot of them have just done little indies at the Sundance Film Festival and have never worked with VFX. They don’t know how to visualize something that’s not there yet, that’s not on set with them. So Marvel often starts asking for what we call “final renders.” As we’re working through a movie, we’ll send work-in-progress images that are not pretty but show where we’re at. Marvel often asks for them to be delivered at a much higher quality very early on, and that takes a lot of time. Marvel does that because its directors don’t know how to look at the rough images early on and make judgment calls. But that is the way the industry has to work. You can’t show something super pretty when the basics are still being fleshed out.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

they just can't handle the workload at the price Marvel is paying them, so the actors/producers are kinda coming out against the studio in support of the team working on the effects.

The issue with this statement is that Marvel is NOT actually the one that is paying them. The companies they work for put in a bid and typically its the lowest bidder that will secure the contract. That's not to say Marvel/Disney are blameless in this...just that it's an industry wide issue.

https://www.cnet.com/culture/enterta...-speaking-out/

Visual effects artists are in more demand than ever, servicing abundant productions from Marvel, Warner Bros., Sony and more. VFX studios secure work by placing a bid based on the number of shots a studio requests. Competition can be aggressive. While a low bid might win, the actual workload the shots amount to can vary dramatically.

"You bid on a number of shots and hope that on average they don't end up being too complicated or difficult, or that the client gets too caught up in minor details and keeps sending shots back for more work," said Peter Allen, an animator and VFX artist and former lecturer in film and television production at the University of Melbourne.

The work is contracted to a VFX house at a set price. An effects artist might manage grueling hours to meet hard release dates but work overtime unpaid. If the final product fails to satisfy audience expectations, VFX artists often take the blame.

[Biomega]

I guess it's hard to find the right pricing model.

Back in my younger days I used to do a lot of translation, and I usually charged by the word (counted from the original, of course); I thought that was the fairest way of doing things. But then people started demanding rewrites, and thorough explanations, and 1-on-1 video sessions to go over details, and whatnot, none of which I was being paid for.

Lately I've seen some people (and companies) go over to an hourly model. They have an approximate rate for their time by which you can give a word-count-based estimate, but any extra work they bill you for at an hourly rate. You can get all the explanations and rewrites you want, but you PAY for them.

Maybe something similar is needed in that industry, I don't know. It seems tough to just put everything on the creators, and then demand redo after redo for basically free. No one can do good work like that in the long run. And they're right: demand is only going to increase as people become more and more accustomed to CGI-heavy productions.

[eschatological]

The issue with this statement is that Marvel is NOT actually the one that is paying them. The companies they work for put in a bid and typically its the lowest bidder that will secure the contract. That's not to say Marvel/Disney are blameless in this...just that it's an industry wide issue.

https://www.cnet.com/culture/enterta...-speaking-out/

This is the nature of contract bidding. Marvel expects these bids to come in under-bid, and according to the article I linked, they're the majority player in the game, so not getting work (due to overbidding) from Marvel isn't feasible.

In construction, this happens, and it leads to real shoddy work at times. But sometimes large municipal/government jobs will insist on a union bid, AKA accept a higher baseline for the bid so that people can be paid reasonably, marking a huge difference between union/non-union bids.

As the initial article says, Maslany came out with a pro-union stance in her interviews, so maybe that's what these VFX artists are going to have to push for. They're highly skilled and not easily replaceable, time to use their leverage.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

This is the nature of contract bidding. Marvel expects these bids to come in under-bid, and according to the article I linked, they're the majority player in the game, so not getting work (due to overbidding) from Marvel isn't feasible.

In construction, this happens, and it leads to real shoddy work at times. But sometimes large municipal/government jobs will insist on a union bid, AKA accept a higher baseline for the bid so that people can be paid reasonably, marking a huge difference between union/non-union bids.

As the initial article says, Maslany came out with a pro-union stance in her interviews, so maybe that's what these VFX artists are going to have to push for. They're highly skilled and not easily replaceable, time to use their leverage.

Like i said, Marvel is not blameless...just that it goes beyond them and is a problem with the industry in general. Marvel is getting the heat right now because they're the biggest game in town...but it's the same thing with Sony, WB, Universal etc.

In the article I linked it does talk about how Marvel being such a major player does give them a lot of leverage:

The size of Marvel allows it to secure bargain effects work, to "string along" a studio or move on to the next best bidder.

But later on it also says:

Not all VFX gigs are an overwhelming slog. Not even with Marvel.

"My experience working on the one Marvel film was pretty much the same as any other film," another artist told CNET. They said that, while the workload was high, the deadlines "were the same as any other action film."

Another VFX artist believes the onus is on the effects houses to stand up for their workers, to "pay overtime" and "manage expectations," both with clients and artists.

"The blame is on the VFX studios, not the client -- Marvel or otherwise."

And later on kinda of re-inforces what Maslany was saying about unions:

"Employees unionizing would dramatically change how VFX houses bid shows because they can't simply dump the poor choices onto their employees," one effects artist said. "It makes sure employees can't be pushed around as easily."

So yeah, while Marvel could learn to perhaps be a little less demanding...they're just playing the game the way it's always been played. What needs to happen is for the rules to change.

[Endus]

This is the nature of contract bidding. Marvel expects these bids to come in under-bid, and according to the article I linked, they're the majority player in the game, so not getting work (due to overbidding) from Marvel isn't feasible.

In construction, this happens, and it leads to real shoddy work at times. But sometimes large municipal/government jobs will insist on a union bid, AKA accept a higher baseline for the bid so that people can be paid reasonably, marking a huge difference between union/non-union bids.

As the initial article says, Maslany came out with a pro-union stance in her interviews, so maybe that's what these VFX artists are going to have to push for. They're highly skilled and not easily replaceable, time to use their leverage.

I 100% support VFX workers unionizing, but the villains here are the VFX companies and those employee's direct bosses, not the clients. A demanding client like Marvel Studios pushing them to do more for less, and if they can't, they lose business, that's how this works, but it means that the VFX company had to choose between a lot of high-pressure, low-paying work, or a lower amount of well-compensated work at a workload their staff could handle, and they chose the former, because it's better for the owners of the VFX company; there's more work, so more gross revenue, and they push their staff harder to meet deadlines and shortchange that staff on payment for their time. That's not Marvel's fault. And sure, until they unionize at the industry level, another company could always snake in with a cheaper/more abusive bid. But this also means these VFX companies are competing on dollars, not artistry. "We can do it cheapest", not "we can do it best".

You can put some blame on Marvel for putting cost reduction as their primary goal, but that's them being a shitty client, they're still not fundamentally responsible for the mistreatment of the VFX company staff.

Low-bid tender is generally just a really fucking bad idea.

[Gumble]

it means that the VFX company had to choose between a lot of high-pressure, low-paying work, or a lower amount of well-compensated work at a workload their staff could handle

Not always the case. Often its between the high pressure work or NO work. Not to let companies off the hook for working conditions, but unless you're in a regulated industry, the name of the game is often "who can work cheapest". If its not you, you may not have any work, at which point those high pressure jobs become layoffs and company closures.

And while regulation can certainly go too far and stifle industries.... doing business without any always leads to this type of cutthroat competition.

[Al Gorefiend]

I'm of the opinion that the choice to have Phase 4 deal with the aftermath and trauma of Infinity War/Endgame was a smart decision. Jumping right from Thanos into the next big threat without any gap would have been exhausting, and it would have felt like Marvel was just constantly trying to one-up themselves to keep the tensions high. Stepping back and taking a breather and tying off some loose bits of trauma's practically refreshing.

I don't think phase 4 has done enough to reflect back on the events of Endgame. I kept watching Ms Marvel thinking to myself, her entire family and friends just went through the most depressing moment of human history and they don't even address it in the show. Just a brief memorial moment at Avengecon.

I don't think they are realistically addressing how much the world would have changed from the snap, even a few years later everything being back to normal seems very far-fetched. There should be emotional moments of characters reflecting on the pain and trauma, yet its treated as these brief little "lol remember when we all dusted?" like we saw in Shang-Chi and NWH.

That depressing bleak tone we got in the first hour of Endgame should still be felt for many people. Like Dr West in Multiverse of Madness, things didn't just go back to normal for a lot of people. Ms. Marvel has this cheeriness to it like she didn't potentially just deal with losing half her family and them coming back a year ago. No mentions of which of her parents or friends got snapped.

[VMSmith]

I don't think phase 4 has done enough to reflect back on the events of Endgame.

Falcon & Winter Soldier really seemed like it was going to address this, considering the Flag Smashers' existence was a direct result of the blip and the response from global leadership when people came back. But then they just became over-the-top terrorists that wanted to kill people in their way for no good reason. It was such a waste and, for me, the beginning of the end of my enjoyment of the MCU.

Marvel needs to just "do better"

[Endus]

Falcon & Winter Soldier really seemed like it was going to address this, considering the Flag Smashers' existence was a direct result of the blip and the response from global leadership when people came back. But then they just became over-the-top terrorists that wanted to kill people in their way for no good reason. It was such a waste and, for me, the beginning of the end of my enjoyment of the MCU.

Marvel needs to just "do better"

It's pretty clear that they had written the Flag Smasher's primary goals in the show to be motivated by the powers that be holding back vaccines while a global pandemic was raging, leading the Flag Smashers to start stealing vaccines to distribute, and the like, and then, well, Covid-19 happened and suddenly the story was a little too "real" and they frantically recut/redubbed some thing to cut that out. But they didn't have time or resources to try and build much of a new story in its place, and that's why the Flag Smashers fall a little flat. I'm willing to cut F&WS a lot of slack over that specific issue.

[Lanrefni]

Falcon & Winter Soldier really seemed like it was going to address this, considering the Flag Smashers' existence was a direct result of the blip and the response from global leadership when people came back. But then they just became over-the-top terrorists that wanted to kill people in their way for no good reason. It was such a waste and, for me, the beginning of the end of my enjoyment of the MCU.

Marvel needs to just "do better"

The reason the show was a mess was they filmed it then decided to remove the pandemic story line and reshot a lot of it, which is why it was so incoherent.

[VMSmith]

It's pretty clear that they had written the Flag Smasher's primary goals in the show to be motivated by the powers that be holding back vaccines while a global pandemic was raging, leading the Flag Smashers to start stealing vaccines to distribute, and the like, and then, well, Covid-19 happened and suddenly the story was a little too "real"

The reason the show was a mess was they filmed it then decided to remove the pandemic story line and reshot a lot of it, which is why it was so incoherent.

I did not know this, interesting. And a poor choice, IMO.

I was so excited by what was going on with Karli in that show and then it all just feel to absolute pieces. It's really the first moment I began hating MCU storytelling and it's all been a mixed bag since then.

I really enjoyed Loki, Shang-Chi and Eternals ... but every other piece of media the MCU has put out since then has fallen flat, to me. Eternals and Loki have been the only things that really felt like there was even anything at stake, the rest has all felt like superhero posturing for the sake of looking cool. And I say this knowing full well that Eternals is a meme for superhero posturing for the sake of looking cool

eta: I think maybe part of what's bothering me is that from Civil War through Endgame it was clear that they had a plan. But, since Endgame, it seems like they thought "Oh shit, we gotta keep this going!?" and have had no clear plan other than throw out anything they think they can make cool.

[Endus]

I did not know this, interesting. And a poor choice, IMO.

I was so excited by what was going on with Karli in that show and then it all just feel to absolute pieces. It's really the first moment I began hating MCU storytelling and it's all been a mixed bag since then.

Like, it's super integral, and the pieces are still in there, they just cut the direct statements. The stuff the Flag Smashers are stealing from the train? Vaccines. What was the original Flag Smashers mentor/leader dying of, when Karli went to say goodbye to her? The disease that the vaccines would cure.

It made the Flag Smashers motivations VERY direct, VERY personal, and REALLY gray, rather than the more black-and-white villainy they got left with. But people would've had real problems with what would've looked like encouraging violent terrorism to get vaccines to the people, when we were going through a pandemic in real-time when the show launched.