I'd have liked the Evoker to have a tank spec

[huth]

1. I see you see this as an argument and not a discussion

...that's exactly how a discussion works. The two are linked, not opposites. Both sides present their arguments and try to convince people of their validity.

So really, you're the one in the wrong here.

[Utrrabbit]

Game consistently has a lack of tanks in everything. The more classes with access to tanking even as off spec, the better

The lack of tanks in pugs literally has nothing to do with the availability of classes being able to perform the room. It has 100% to do with the vast majority if tanks not wanting to deal with idiots. We only run with guildies or friends. We do not like you.

[Ielenia]

You’re basing this entire argument on a gameplay convention.

Says the guy who would often use "gameplay conventions" as basis for arguments regarding lore. Just saying.

But more on topic, I wouldn't mind a third spec for the evoker, just like I wouldn't mind one for the demon hunter. But, just like I would want a spec that made sense for the DH (i.e., not a healer spec), I also think a tank spec does not fir the concept of the evoker.

[Mace]

...that's exactly how a discussion works. The two are linked, not opposites. Both sides present their arguments and try to convince people of their validity.

So really, you're the one in the wrong here.

They can be, but Teriz is approaching this as an argument, not a discussion.. By his language, there is clearly a right and wrong here.

- - - Updated - - -

Says the guy who would always use "gameplay conventions" as basis for arguments regarding lore. Just saying.

But more on topic, I wouldn't mind a third spec for the evoker, just like I wouldn't mind one for the demon hunter. But, just like I would want a spec that made sense for the DH (i.e., not a healer spec), I also think a tank spec does not fir the concept of the evoker.

Exactly

I would live one. Can you imagine any class getting a new spec, tbh, I find the prospect as exciting as a new class or class skins.

It can even be more exciting than the former if it is a close concept and fantasy I dont really like or ge l with. As for the latter, to me, the fantasy is always important, a new spec will obviously extend the fantasy of a class, or realise an existing fantasy that the class didnt reflect,but a class skin allows a detailed fantasy even if doesnt provide new gameplay, to me that is also quite exciting.

Personally, I just dont see a tank spec incompatible with an Evoker. Evoker is not a natural class, blizz invented it for this game, so it having a rank spec fantasy is a simple matter of telling or showing us..


DHs already have a ranged capability with fel in the lore anyway, they cast spells, it feels natural they could have a ranged fel spec, just like a priest could have a light offensive spec. Priest light spec could also be a shadow spec skin, but I'd rather they do Priedt skins for something like a Moon Priestess and then actually do a 4th ranged spec for priests with it's own playstyle.

I would find those exciting. I would even find it interesting if they made monks a dual cloth and leather users, I agree with the guy who said monks should have been cloth wearers. So true.

[Teriz]

Says the guy who would often use "gameplay conventions" as basis for arguments regarding lore. Just saying.

There's a difference between using a gameplay convention to point out missing thematics within the class lineup, and using gameplay conventions to say that a race can't do something in lore.

- - - Updated - - -

Except the visage form is clearly not like any race we know - so how can it be a disguise.

Again, dragons have been known to take such forms in the past.

For example, this is Alexstraza;



While largely elven in appearance, she has massive draconic horns sticking out of her head.

Here is Ysera;



As you can see, Ysera is shown with horns, but she's also occassionally shown with a fin in the back. Again, signifying her true draconic form.


The Dracthyr's visage form is based on this.

There is nothing that says Dracthyr can't completely disguise themselves as another race.. but it's clear, the vsiage form does not belong to any race around and therefore is not meant purely as a disguise.. I mean how hard is it to understand. At this point you're just nnot conceding because you must be right, You view a thing this way and are convinced everyone else is wrong.

Again, see above. That is not something introduced by the Dracthyr race.

[Ielenia]

There's a difference between using a gameplay convention to point out missing thematics within the class lineup, and using gameplay conventions to say that a race can't do something in lore.

You used to say that the healing spells of the Evoker are based off Alexstrasza because her healing spells in HotS are colored green, despite Blizzard stating, in unequivocal terms, that the red dragonflight powers are in the dps spec, not the healer spec. That is you using gameplay conventions for your arguments.

The point of the matter is that you shouldn't toss stones around when the ceiling of your house is made of thinnest glass.

[huth]

They can be, but Teriz is approaching this as an argument, not a discussion.. By his language, there is clearly a right and wrong here.

Which doesn't preclude a discussion. Besides, you're doing the same thing, so this is just the pot calling the other pot black.

- - - Updated - - -

You used to say that the healing spells of the Evoker are based off Alexstrasza because her healing spells in HotS are colored green, despite Blizzard stating, in unequivocal terms, that the red dragonflight powers are in the dps spec, not the healer spec. That is you using gameplay conventions for your arguments.

The point of the matter is that you shouldn't toss stones around when the ceiling of your house is made of thinnest glass.

He who lives in a stone house shouldn't throw glasses. Or something like that.

[Teriz]

You used to say that the healing spells of the Evoker are based off Alexstrasza because her healing spells in HotS are colored green, despite Blizzard stating, in unequivocal terms, that the red dragonflight powers are in the dps spec, not the healer spec. That is you using gameplay conventions for your arguments.

Yeah, because Blizzard pulled from HotS for future class gameplay mechanics. That's using gameplay to justify gameplay. If I had said something along the lines of Alexstraza no longer uses red dragon magic in lore because in HotS she has green-style spells, you'd have an argument here. However, since I never said such a thing, you don't.

The point of the matter is that you shouldn't toss stones around when the ceiling of your house is made of thinnest glass.

The point is that you're jumping into conversations where you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You should probably stop while you're behind.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, because Blizzard pulled from HotS for future class gameplay mechanics. That's using gameplay to justify gameplay.

Wrong. You used gameplay concessions of HotS to go against Blizzard's own words regarding the evoker lore.

[Teriz]

Wrong. You used gameplay concessions of HotS to go against Blizzard's own words regarding the evoker lore.

Yeah, no they don't. Further, we ended up with multiple HotS abilities and mechanics in the class.

So what are you talking about?

[nvaelz]

DH is too close to Evoker so it will never happen, I assume you want like Cleric and Bard etc aswell.

...that's exactly how a discussion works. The two are linked, not opposites. Both sides present their arguments and try to convince people of their validity.

So really, you're the one in the wrong here.

Both of you are wrong and I'm right. I have no need to hear an explanation or give one myself regarding my statement, and I will pretend this thread doesn't exist anymore and avoid all notifications, /end.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, no they don't. Further, we ended up with multiple HotS abilities and mechanics in the class.

You mean none? You're wrong about Alexstrasza because her abilities are healing spells and the evoker's use of red dragonflight magic is toward damage-dealing.

[Eosia]

Why? Cos mail users will finally have a tank class - and it's dragons man, surely they can tank

Play BM Hunter. You'll eventually be forced into the "Oh Shit!" tank role.

[Teriz]

You mean none? You're wrong about Alexstrasza because her abilities are healing spells and the evoker's use of red dragonflight magic is toward damage-dealing.

Off the top of my head, since I can't access the abilities or talents from here; Exuberance and Blessing of the Bronze both came directly from HotS. Also multiple red spells in the Evoler class can heal. Living Flame is a prime example.

As I said, please stop while you're behind.

[Aresk]

The lack of tanks in pugs literally has nothing to do with the availability of classes being able to perform the room. It has 100% to do with the vast majority if tanks not wanting to deal with idiots. We only run with guildies or friends. We do not like you.

I know several people who have said they'd be happy to tank when needed but their class can't (e.g. rogue, mage, warlock, hunter, shaman). Some people are drawn to class fantasy first and role second. Three of those even had capability of tanking in the past (dodge rogue in BT, mage in Gruul's lair, dark apotheosis warlock in MoP), but Blizzard removed those capabilities.

[Utrrabbit]

I know several people who have said they'd be happy to tank when needed but their class can't (e.g. rogue, mage, warlock, hunter, shaman). Some people are drawn to class fantasy first and role second. Three of those even had capability of tanking in the past (dodge rogue in BT, mage in Gruul's lair, dark apotheosis warlock in MoP), but Blizzard removed those capabilities.

Those werent tanks. They were bad players not knowing their roles.

[Kiria]

Evoker doesnt need a tank spec, I don't think throwing a tank spec on everything will necessarily increase the percentage of tanks.

[Aresk]

Those werent tanks. They were bad players not knowing their roles.

You're right: those players weren't tanks because they literally couldn't be with the class they played. Now you can state that they were bad players because they picked a class that didn't have a role (though I find that a narrow viewpoint), but that still shows your initial statement--that the lack of tanks in pugs literally has nothing to do with the availability of classes being able to perform the [role]--is false, as more classes with the role would've led to more tanks. The inertia of making a new, raid/M+ ready character may be a nonissue for some, but it also is a blocker for others.

[huth]

You're right: those players weren't tanks because they literally couldn't be with the class they played. Now you can state that they were bad players because they picked a class that didn't have a role (though I find that a narrow viewpoint), but that still shows your initial statement--that the lack of tanks in pugs literally has nothing to do with the availability of classes being able to perform the [role]--is false, as more classes with the role would've led to more tanks. The inertia of making a new, raid/M+ ready character may be a nonissue for some, but it also is a blocker for others.

Saying you want to do something and actually doing it are two rather different things. Nothing is stopping them from playing a class that can tank, either. You're not providing any actual evidence here.

[Aresk]

Saying you want to do something and actually doing it are two rather different things. Nothing is stopping them from playing a class that can tank, either. You're not providing any actual evidence here.

For the original statement to be true, 100% of those people who say they want to do the thing would literally have to not follow through on it. As for evidence, I literally brought up the inertia with swapping classes. Right now, it's gain sixty levels, buy 2+ legendaries, farm the legendary powers, and acquire four-piece before the character is ready for current content. It was even worse when there wasn't a 60 renown skip or BoA solutions for transferring currencies like cosmic flux between characters. This is, of course, assuming that the person is interested in the other class and doesn't have a compelling reason to play their current (e.g. legacy unlocks like Mage Tower or teleports, achievement progress, emotional investment in the character).

If you truly believe that going from X to X+1 tank classes will make no difference, then by that logic, going from X to X-1 (for X > 1) tank classes would have no impact. If brewmaster monks were changed into a DPS spec, you would expect all those brewmaster monks to just play another class that has tanking available. Why even bother having more than one tank class, since all tanks will just play that one class? Yes, it's a ridiculous argument, because there are plenty of reasons why people might not want to play that one class. Likewise, those can be expanded to the current count of tanking classes.